@F_alk:
@Zooey72:
I think Germany will have similiar problems, just not as bad. And if push really came to shove they could tell the turks there to get the hell out. Neither the original people who came to germany were made citizens nor their children are citizens. If this kind of insane crap goes on they could theoreticaly find themselves on a boat back to Turkey ((and REAL poverty) at least as of 5 years ago according to my old college prof.)
Yes, there is a lot of talk about that. Though I perosnally think the turks are not the problem. Turkey want to be “part of the West” thus anyone who sees himself as “turk” will try to behave and allow Turkey to enter the EU. Also, the legislation has improved a bit (by a red-rgreen gov’t, and against resistance of the conservatives: planned was a much “better” immigration law but it had to be scaled down due to the resistance … and now, legally, the pope needs to lose german citizenship) allowing later generations of immigrants to gain citizenship quite easy (but still no double citizenship). Also, we speak of the third generation of turks in Germany. The really scary thing is, that their level of fluency in german is lower than the one of the second generation. A very clear warning sign that something goes very wrong in the integration process. Also, if you keep being a foreigner, you see the state in a different view:
I for my part think the Russian-Germans are more in the situation like the rioters is France. They are german citizens, officially with the
same rights as all germans. Still, they are not integrated, and often not allowed to take part in the wealth, with less chances to find a job just because of their name and the suburb they come from (just like in France).
Plus, if they become criminals, they then tend to be more violent than turks or other germans (in that order).
There is no such thing as “cheap labor”.
Unfortunately, there is … from what i read, the USA are noticing that as well at the moment. And Western Europe will never be able to beat the prices of China, East Asia or Eastern Europe alone. That is a problem if you have “underqualified” people in your nations workforce. The market does not care for them and our understanding of humanity should mean that we can not leave them alone. Unfortunately, we in fact do, and now we are faced the bill. So, all i can hope, is that the “in fact do” changes to a “in fact did”.
Either you come to this country legaly or you get out.
Funny that you just spoke of France, and without any real notice shift to the USA. Would you mind to say so next time, so that i don’t have to wonder for a few sentences what the heck you are suddenly talking about?
They do work that Americans won’t do for crap wages.
Be prepared that this will happen more and more often. It is said that Germanies economy is “globalised” 4 times as much as the US economy. Otherwise, you will lose all cheap production, all out-sourcable cheap services etc. With no real social system, this will make the people work for the crap wages, just to survive.
That is the truth. These jobs must get done, and w/o the criminals doing them companies will be forced to raise the wages of these jobs to attract AMERICANS to do them.
No :). It is always (by market fans) said you have a choice. Unfortunately, if the choice is starvation or crap wage … then people will take the crap wage. The situation is going to get worse in the US, believe me. The problem is not with illegal immigrants.
If these things had been done in Eurupe than they would not have the problem they have now.
It also is not the problem here. Even turks are too expensive in Germany. The costs of living are just too high for anyone to compete with production in China or services from Rumania or Polans (who in turn are pressured by Unkrainians and Belorussians).
Yes, I down shiffted and should have led into it better. However you took me out of context quite a few times so I think we are even as far as things go (btw, thank you for the civil post even though we disagree).
Cheap labor does come with a price, the price Eurupe is paying right now. I won’t go into every Eurpean country because the reason they have allowed the influx of immigrants varies. My point is that as bad as the rioters in France feel that they have been misstreated is nowhere near the poverty they would have if they were in their home countries. However they feel that they are cheated out of the wealth, but keep their nationalistic identity (which in their home country would mean they work for a dollar a day). I do think that the Islamic countries are back a$$ward as far as how they conduct government and day to day life. The immigrants in Eurupe do not look at themselves as Eurupeans, they cling to the nationalistic insanity that is destroying their own home countries. All the while never seeing it as a benefit that they have the simlpe things like running water and food to eat which they would not have if not being in Eurupe.
The first influx of immigrant labor after WW2 to Eurupe was more than happy to take crap jobs for crap pay (remind you of what is going on now in the US?) because it was much better than what they had. Their children want more, and they should. But there has been no integration. (Down shifting to the US now). The US laws now, did not invite the illegals to come here (at least on paper, our government loves the cheap labor they are getting) and we either need to integrate or get caught into the same trap you have in Eurupe. We need to be selective as far as who comes here. Not the open door amnesty policy that Bush proposed (and was shot down by the American people because it would have been political suicide for the republicans).
As I said, if you come to this country legaly than you should have every benefit that comes with being an American. If you come here illegaly you should be given nothing. Our illegal invasion must stop or in a decade or 2 we will be in the same situation as Eurupe is now.
