@Unknown:
G1: Build 1 Carrier and [3 Tanks] or [1 Cruiser, 1 Tank] or [2 Destroyers]
UK1: build 3 bombers
And why would Britain build such a fleet to take out a Carrier? There would still be only 1 Transport at the time, not enough to be worth killing.
Also, if Germany instead 2 Destroyers or a Carrier, the British force will NOT be sufficient.
@Unknown:
Wodan, your navy will be annihilated by the end of round 2. End of story. If you disagree, please explain how you plan keep your navy when any UK player worth his salt will buy bombers on UK1 and blow it out of the water before it can do anything.
Even if he does that, Germany still launches its main invasion of Karelia first, then builds 1 Transport, 5 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 1 Carrier, which breaks even with the British air/seaforce.
Or alternatively, Germany could invade Britain, which would likely succeed unless Britain sacks all their Bombers.
@Unknown:
As for the Karelia bit, the Soviets simply retreat from there and dead-zone it on their first turn. If you move your big stack of German in, it gets strafed to the ground and the Soviets can relax because you blew your infantry wad, with no reinforcements in sight because you bought all navy G1.
Germany will move 10 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks into Karelia G2. If Russia retreats out of it, then hits it with every possible unit they can plus an R1 build of 6 Tanks, those 6 Tanks will be the sole survivors, and be decimated on the followup attack.
If you could do that, Japan could send its full 9 Fighters to take out the Battleship, Destroyer/Transport, AND Bomber/Fighter/Infantry on West US, as well as possibly the Infantry/Fighter on Hawaii. America would be so screwed.
The problem about building a carrier in G1 is that its a purely defensive move. It doesnt make any sense to try to protect the single transport.
The Carrier is protecting 3 Transports, all of which can be used either shuttle Infantry/Artillery to Karelia or invade Britain.
So, my previous plans were deemed too sensible, so here’s a new strategy that is focused on launching large scale invasions of both Britain and America, done so that whichever one reinforces the other will itself fall.
G1: Build 1 Carrier and [3 Tanks] or [1 Cruiser, 1 Tank] or [2 Destroyers] or [1 Carrier, 1 Infantry]
G1: Kill the 3 British fleets that are closest and the 3 front russian territories, as before. Capture Gibraltar, reinforce Algeria with at least a Tank.
J1: Build 1 Fighter, 1 Transport
J1: Send 4 Fighters to West US and kill everything there, send Formosan Carrier and Battleship to Sea Zone 52 while the Carrier’s Fighters hit the American Battleship with help from the Japanese Destroyer, attack the Philipines Destroyer with a Cruiser supported by the Fighter on the Formosan Island. During noncombat move, send as many Fighters to your Carriers as possible, to replace the losses. Move all Transports to Iwo Jima, gathering a force of 8 Infantry, 1 Artillery, and 1 Tank there.
I1: Build 1 Fighter
I1: Move fleet to Sea Zone 12
G2: Build 6 Transports and an Infantry
G2: Retreat all but 1 Infantry per territory from the Eastern front, and move them to where they can be picked up for transport. Move Infantry and Tank onto Italian transport.
J2: Build 1 Transport and [2 Tanks, 1 Infantry] or [4 Infantry], you might not be able to afford the last Infantry.
J2: If possible, invade West US(unlikely). If possible, sink American fleet(dunno). Most likely, move your fleet to Sea Zone 65 and invade Western Canada with your 10 ground units. Use the J1 build either offensively (capture Alaska with air support) or defensively(shuttle units to East Asia). You can also send the J1 build Fighter to join with your Carrier fleet if need be.
I2: Build 1 Bomber
I2: If possible, invade East US(unlikely). Otherwise move fleet to Sea Zone 6, killing any ships there with support of your airforce. If Sea zone 7 is blocked, then you will just have to stop there and do the same. If neither Sea Zone is blocked, move to 7. Move Infantry and Tank to Western Europe
G3: Build 10 ground units, mainly Infantry/Artillery
G3: Move fleet to join up with Italians (including the German Transport from the Mediterranean), then launch an attack with 9 Infantry, 9 Tanks, and any air units and naval bombardments available. IF invasion is not likely to succeed AND the fleet is in Sea Zone 7, then drop the units for now. Other units should protect West Poland, with a token Infantry in Bulgaria.
I3: Build 5 ground units, mainly Infantry/Artillery
I3: If by chance the German invasion failed by a small margin, invade Britain with 1 Infantry, 1 Tank, 2 Fighters, 1 Bomber, 1 Cruiser, and 1 Battleship. If no German invasion occurred at all, move fleet to Sea Zone 1
J3: Lots of Infantry
J3: Take West US if possible, otherwise take Central US. Use the J2 build to move more guys to Alaska or East Asia. Move transport fleet back to Iwo Jima, with plans to help get more guys to Alaska or East Asia eventually.
G4: MOAR
G4: Assuming invasion failed, move fleet to Sea Zone 1 and invade East Canada
Note: Protect VCs, make sure they fall last.
I can’t really plan beyond that. The objective is to grab either West US, East US, or United Kingdom as soon as possible, before Germany gets its a** kicked by Russia, or the Allies grab too many VCs. Ironically, the threats are the complete reverse of the normal Axis strategy, because Britain and America are on the defensive, while its Eurasia that’s being ignored. Builds for Japan on turn 2+ and Italy/Germany on turn 3+ are going to be defensive and focused on holding out while the huge a** Axis fleet does its work (8 German Transports, 5-7 Japanese Transports, and 1 Italian Transport, being supported by a fleet of 4 Carriers, 2 Battleships, 3 Cruisers, 1 Destroyer, 3 Subs, 16 Fighters, and 2 Bombers)
If you didn’t understand this strategy, all you need to know is that it has a good chance of the Axis invading Canada with 30 or so ground units.
Where, might I ask is the reinforcements to take Karelia? If you bought a navy in the first turn you’ll have no reinforcements to hit Karelia with and you don’t seem to anticipate that while you may take out those 7 Russian infantry on RD. 1, they will more than likely cause you a few casualties as well.
Germany can hit Karelia with about 10 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks, minus any units lost taking Baltic States (probably 1 Infantry), plus a Cruiser volley.
If they reinforce Karelia, Germany would have to fight through 9 Infantry, 1 Artillery, and 3 Tanks, before being counterattacked by 4 Infantry, 1 Artillery and 4 Tanks.
If Russia evacuated Karelia before hand and built only tanks, they would be able to counterattack with 13 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks.
Outcome of Situation A: Germany kills Karelian force, survives with 2 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks. Germany survives counterattack with 5-6 Tanks. Germany loses a net of 43-48 IPCs and 13-14 HP, Russia loses 82 IPCs and 22 HP.
Outcome of Situation B: Russia counterattacks successfully, but loses all but the newly built 6 Tanks. Germany loses 73 IPCs and 19 HP, Russia loses 52 IPCs and 16 HP. However, Germany will likely slaughter the Tank group with 6 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 2 Cruisers blasts, and some air support.
If you think you can transport them, your wrong because if I’m the allies I hit you with a one two assult that wipes out your navy including your transports before you can reinforce or move it
With what? For B1, you have 2 Fighters, a Bomber, and a Destroyer that isn’t in range, as your surviving atlantic forces. Germany has a Carrier with 2 Fighters and a Cruiser guarding the transports. Attack and you will simply lose your forces.
I like the fact that you’ve been constructing a different German strategy than we’re used to, however I think your assuming too little in terms of an allied response to your G1 moves.
I have. Italy can limit British responses, potentially, while Japan can distract America.
@Unknown:
No, he’s correct. It’s about 66% that you will have a tech after rolling on J2 if you buy 3 tokens on J1 (and none on J2).
It’s about 42% to get one at the start of J1.Right! I didn’t notice that Wodan was talking about beginning of Turn 2!
The idea has merit, but as you point out, it gives Japan a bit of a slow start, as for shuffling troops into Asia…
Excluding the guy hanging out in Solomon Islands but including the 4 units already in Transports, Japan has 15 ground units not on the mainland. They shuffle 6 to islands(Philipines/Borneo/East Indies) and 4 to the mainland (Kwantung/Fukien). Following turn, they shuffle the 4 guys in Borneo/East Indies to India, the surviving 1-2 Infantry on the Philipines to Buryatia SSR, and use the remaining 2 transports to shuttle 3 Infantry to either Buryatia SSR or Siberia. That’ll just leave the guy on Solomon Islands and the guy on Iwo Jima. So, of your starting 24 Ground units, you can get 22 of those to the mainland by the end of turn 2.
russia has four infantry (2 from belorussia and 2 from archangelsk) and one armor to counter attack. In most case, you have one artillery and 2 armors to defense, which is a 75% counterattack for russia.
Attack Belorussiawith 1 Fighter and 1 Bomber
Ahem, Russia does NOT have 2 guys in Belorussia. They have 26% win chances assuming that only the Artillery survived the initial attack on Karelia. Its an expensive gambit, but being able to produce out of Karelia and attack Archangel on the second turn makes it worth it.
So the rules should say, that after first round of combat, the attacker may retreat, or the defender may retreat, or the battle may continue. Easy as that. Of course the defender must retreat to a territory that is friendly, just like a plane after combat must land in a friendly space. If this territory was attacked, but remained friendly, then the defender may retreat there, as long as the combat is resolved. But the defender may not retreat to a friendly territory that are going to be attacked.
While it intrinsically makes sense, it would severely alter the game balance, I suspect. I think this would make Tanks very overpowered, especially for Germany. Germany can capture a place like Karelia or Caucasus with something like 6 Tanks and an Infantry surviving When the Russians attack, after getting one measly round, the remaining Tanks retreat to safety in Finland/Baltic States or Ukraine. All the Germans really need is to secure a path to Moscow, beyond that, they can retreat freely. As for Russia, once Moscow is attacked, retreating won’t help them as much.
On the other hand, Russia can use this to evacuate their surviving Infantry from Baltic States/East Poland/Ukraine.
Here are some limitations I’d suggest
1. Retreating ground units are considered to be routed. They may not move during their controllers next turn. This keeps a player from simply retreating their units, then counterattacking with even more units, probably resulting in the other player also retreating and so on.
2. Even after sea units retreat, attackers may pursue them. One more round is fought, and only the attacker participates, but their units receive -1 to their rolls.
@Imperious:
the attackers win 46.125%, but reversed the difference is 71.517% for the BB
That is because Carrier Groups are weak on offenseThat makes the choice poorer to buy also.
That is because Carrier Groups have the best ground attack capacities.
@Imperious:
but in combat thats all that is concerned, and it proves one is inferior to the other. Nothing else matters except the results of combat.
Which is that Subs win?
Take 180 Battleships versus 600 Subs (assumed that Destroyer is always present)
Round1: 180 Battleships (80 blocks left) vs. 480 Subs
Round2: 180 Battleships (0 blocks left) vs. 360 Subs
Round3: 120 Battleships vs. 240 Subs
Round4: 80 Battleships vs. 160 Subs
Round5: 60 Battleships vs. 107 Subs
Round6: 42 Battleships vs. 67 Subs
Round7: 31 Battleships vs. 39 Subs
Round8: 25 Battleships vs. 18 Subs
Round9: 22 Battleships vs. 2 Subs
Round10: 21 Battleships vs. 0 Subs
Net losses=3180 for Battleships, 3600 for Subs
In short, even when Battleships attack Subs that have been deprived of first strike, they still only barely win. If the Subs DO have first strike or are attacking, it isn’t even a contest.
Also, you still haven’t acknowledged that Destroyers beat their weight in Battleships, even after I specifically showed a round by round battle between arbitrarily large numbers of them.
The sims show that the balance changes huge in favor of cruisers at 10, but 11 is close to 50% Thats what you want namely for all the units to be basically close on a cost value basis, and THEN have some unique ability that you use them for a specific function, ASW, Shore shot, etc…
10 Destroyers will still beat 8 Cruisers, which cost equal if Cruisers cost 10
10 Cost Cruisers beat 20 Cost Battleships, but that’s why you lower the cost of Battleships to 18.
And if that is unbalanced, that is what the 2 turn ship construction rule is for.
Attack Karelia with 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 3 Fighters, and 1 Cruiser (80% chance of at least 1 ground unit surviving)
Attack Baltic States with enough forces to kill it, but don’t use the tanks in West Poland
Attack Belorussia with 1 Fighter and 1 Bomber
During Noncombat phase, move the 2 Tanks in West Poland to Karelia
End Result(assuming you are in the 80%): You will have 2 Tanks, 1 Artillery, and 0-2 Infantry in Karelia. Russia has 2 Infantry and 1 Tank able to counterattack, which is insufficient.
You will still have enough forces to take East Poland and Ukraine as well, especially if you use the Mediterranean transport.
If Russia loses Karelia first turn and can’t recapture it, they are VERY screwed, and will likely lose Archangel, Belorussia, and Northern Ukraine the following turn, while Italy will either recapture Ukraine or whittle Caucasus further on turns 1 and 2.
G1 should consist of 6 Tanks, G2, of 2 Tanks and 3 Bombers, of which all can hit Moscow on G3.
You advocate a strategy focused on subs, and how the supersub tech is a good boost for germany, but then tell us you don’t even understand the rules for how they work?!?
I was pretty sure I knew the rules, but didn’t have a rulebook handy. I then found one and read up, to confirm that I was correct.
This makes no sense, the numbers don’t even add up!
And even if they did, you must be playing the most rookie allied players I’ve ever seen!
Care to explain?
Turn 1, Russia loses the 7 Infantry in its frontline territories. Assuming they anticipate an attack on Karelia, and choose to evacuate it during R1 and build a tank group to recapture it, the number of units available for recapturing it in R2 will be 13 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks. Forces not in range consist of 4 Infantry in the Caucasus, 2 Infantry in Kazakh, 2 Infantry in Novobirsk, and their Siberian forces (9 more Infantry). If they evacuate like that, they can have at most 6 Infantry in Caucasus, not enough to hold it, and it will be captured G2, especially if Italy whittles them down first. While they will capture Karelia in R2, they will only have 6 Tanks survive. During G3, the Tank group will be pulverized, at which point the only remaining Russian forces will be the 9 Siberian Infantry, the 2 Infantry from Novobirsk, and whatever they built R2 (another 6 Tanks?). Moreover, capturing Karelia will let Caucasus survive intact, meaning that Germany will produce 4 units there, while Italy will land some additional units to reinforce it (especially if they built a transport first turn).
@Imperious:
the attackers win 46.125%, but reversed the difference is 71.517% for the BB
That is because Carrier Groups are weak on offense
@Imperious:
The “JUICE” as they call it in the casino shows over all that when the BB mixed in with other ships and compared with
the CV and fighters mixed in with other ships , that the BB reigns supreme. Plus if you add in the idea of hit and run tactics, the BB can soak off 6 hits while cleaning up the defenders because they cant take ‘free hits’
And that is why Battleships are a good unit. However, they will NOT defeat an equally costed fleet of Destroyers in a fight to the death.
@Imperious:
The subs are greater on offense, but horrible on defense…so they are only to be used for attacking
Horrible on defense?
20 Subs have 20 Defense, 20 HP
6 Battleships have 24 Defense, 12 HP
10 Cruisers have 30 Defense, 10 HP
15 Destroyers have 30 Defense, 15 HP
Yes, they have weak attacks, but they have a superior ability to absorb hits.
@Imperious:
The DD and CA are just soakers, while the CV and fighters can be used multipurpose.
DD and CA both have superior Attack/Defense per IPC than Battleships, while DD also have more HP per IPC, though they lose Attack/Defense faster when damaged than BBs.
@Imperious:
If you want to make the cruisers more competitive the price should be at 11 IPC, but still they fair poor vs the BB but marginally.
Why not 10 IPCs?
@Imperious:
12 BB vs. 20 CA Battleships win 85.056%
Duh. Cruisers suck even more stat-wise than Battleships do.
@Imperious:
3 CV + 6 fighters (102 IPC) vs 5 BB the BB wins 72.071%
Are the CV+Fighters attacking?
@Imperious:
If you take the same thing and add 5 CA and 5 DD to each side the side with the Battleships win 72.485%
@Imperious:
If you got 6 BB attacking w/ 1 DESTROYER (128 IPC) vs. 21 SS (126) the Battleships win 48.237%
Yes, BB beat Subs when attacking, as do Destroyers.
However, so far, you presume that Carrier Groups attack and Sub groups defend, each time putting them in a weaker position. If you don’t make such presumptions, the Carrier Groups and Subs will win.
Destroyers, on the other hand, always beat Battleships.
@Imperious:
also 6 DD attacking 8 SS win 59.612% of the time, but subs win if they are attacking.
Which shows how strong Subs are. They barely lose even when being attacked by their nemesis, the Destroyer.
Wodan if you will read that second thread I posted it will explain battlemap. It is pretty much an electronic game board. It doesn’t really “run” or “do” anything. If you can open the maps it sounds like you have it working.
You might want to check out the play by forums section and play some games here to test some of your strategies. I am only around on weekends and already have 7 games in progress at the moment but I probably could get some rounds in against you next weekend.
Ok. I got Battlemap working to the point that I could place and remove units. How do you scroll/zoom in/out?
Fleet Action, strategic-subs no, but as raiders, ambushers, Oh yeah…
On the other hand, I have been caught with my pants down, so to speak,
by having a CV and 2 FTR, being caught by two subs- it was not pretty- good bye IPC’s. Keep several DD handy at all times-LOL.
I see no reason why Japan’s fleet action can’t consist entirely of raiding subs. Scatter 6-12 Subs, with no more than 1 Sub per sea zone within range of a Destroyer, and America will be forced to invest in a fleet of Destroyers, which even if it is successful, has no actual ability to attack Japan proper, who probably has 50-70 Income.
The first post in this thread has links to the Abattlemap program and the AA50 files.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12873.0This thread explains how to play here using the forums.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13365.0Strategic theory is nice. And I do like seeing people thinking outside of the box. However without game play testing strategic theory is just that theory. This is also why I am not a big fan of mathematical evaluations either. Axis and Allies is not a balance sheet.
Used Winzip, but can’t get file to run, even after I extracted it. Can open map though. Got it working, mostly.
My presumption is that the Landers hit Burma, Kwantung, Philipines, Borneo, and East Indies. Following turn, Borneo and East Indies Transports hit India, Burma Transport hits Italian East Africa, New Guinea, or moves to Sea Zone 61, Kwangtung and Philipines Transports shift units from Japan to mainland, possibly into Buryatia and Soviet Far East.
So I suppose the Russians do nothing and just let you have Karelia?
By projecting your turn 2 assault on Karelia Russia can be well prepared to liberate it. They can have plenty of infantry staged in Archangel and 6 tanks purchased in round 1 ready to rip out of Russia.
Germany can hit Karelia with about 10 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks, minus any units lost taking Baltic States (probably 1 Infantry), plus a Cruiser volley.
If they reinforce Karelia, Germany would have to fight through 9 Infantry, 1 Artillery, and 3 Tanks, before being counterattacked by 4 Infantry, 1 Artillery and 4 Tanks.
If Russia evacuated Karelia before hand and built only tanks, they would be able to counterattack with 13 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks.
Outcome of Situation A: Germany kills Karelian force, survives with 2 Infantry, 2 Artillery, and 7 Tanks. Germany survives counterattack with 5-6 Tanks. Germany loses a net of 43-48 IPCs and 13-14 HP, Russia loses 82 IPCs and 22 HP.
Outcome of Situation B: Russia counterattacks successfully, but loses all but the newly built 6 Tanks. Germany loses 73 IPCs and 19 HP, Russia loses 52 IPCs and 16 HP. However, Germany will likely slaughter the Tank group with 6 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 2 Cruisers blasts, and some air support.
In either case, by the end of turn 2, Russia will have about 8 Infantry left that weren’t in or east of Evenki National Okrug, plus possibly that Tank group.
However, in order to do Situation B, they have at most 6 Infantry to defend Caucasus. Germany will simply divert their Bomber and a tank or two to capture it as well.
What happens to the Kriegsmarine when the US shows up with a nice stack of bombers out of England on turn 4 or so?
They can switch out an Infantry+Cruiser for a second Carrier at some point, if need be.
Also, if the USA goes SBR on turn 4, they will be too little too late, while Italy and Japan run rampant. Japan and Italy are both capable of runaway expansion, Germany is not, so it makes sense for them to play more cautiously, drawing the attention of the Allies via their land/sea threat and buying time for Italy and Japan to expand. If done right, if the Allies don’t target Germany sufficiently, it can take 1 of the Capitals, if they do target it sufficiently, Italy and Japan will expand too much.