Posts made by WILD BILL

@iwugrad:

My 2 cents after only playing one game (which is why it’s only worth 2 cents) is that it works fine if you can attack any true neutral nation and you’re only at war with that nation, even with only as many soldiers as that nation starts with according to the official rules.

I think it depends on what appetite your group has for rules.  I played with a group of young gamers (video gamers that is) who had less appetite for complexity and rules and preferred speed over accuracy.  The attack any neutral without consequences rule made it much more fun for this group: it’s fun to take over countries, plain and simple.

If you were playing with a bunch of guys like me (which you probably never will since I’m a little uncommon), then the best would be to have each country’s neutrality rules follow the treaties and obligations that country had during world war 2.  Additionally, their military would be the relative size that it was as compared to the playable countries in this game as/of the starting setup (I’m afraid I wouldn’t have an appetite to adjust each countries military as the game went on according to the size it was at each time period, so a starting 1940 setup would remain throughout the game).  You’d follow a chart showing the alliances.  For instance, you want to invade Spain, you look on the chart and it mimics their treaties during the war:  it says if you invade, you’re also at war with Portugal and their colonies in Africa (maybe there were more treaty obligations I’m unaware of).  Additionally, if the invasion of the neutral country failed or if that country was liberated, a factory would be placed on it (major or minor depending on that country’s relative industrial capacity. The relative industrial capacities would also be listed on the earlier mentioned treaties chart, which may indicate that country may produce more than it’s territory value in units each round) and the aligned/liberating nation could place units on that country each turn.  That country would have it’s own income though and would not go to the aligned/liberating nation’s pool of cash.

With the rules for a bunch of guys like me, yes, the allies may invade Spain with regularity, but they’d be taking on a large military.  They’d also need to make sure their invasion stuck, otherwise, if the Axis liberates Spain, they will have an operational factory pumping out a pretty good amount of units each round.  This inverse is true with potential Axis invasions such as Turkey, Sweden, Switzerland, etc.

You have a good point about not over complicating things. It would be fun to just steam roll Turkey or Spain with no strings attached like you do Yugo or Greece, or even France for the matter. Both sides would have opportunity to make attacks that benefit them. The axis could make some good early gains,  but would eventually end up on the short end of the stick.

The Germans could blast into Turkey on on G3 (utilizing the strength of the Luftwaffe), and set-up a pretty nice secondary force opening up the oil NO’s of Caucasus and the Mid East (then march north). The Italians would also get access to the Black Sea to join in the action behind the protection of the Turkish straight. The UK would get pretty stretched out, and Russia still has its hands full with the main German front.

The US counters by invading Spain to establish a foot hold in Europe once at war, and the UK grabs Portugal and maybe the African colonies, Saudi etc….

Like you said you could also go the opposite direction and make up some treaties and alliances, plus a way to sway them. Could have it that only the axis can attack true neutrals, but if certain events or situations come up the allies are allowed to violate neutrality of some countries. Certain events trigger the activation of neutral minors to go pro axis/allies etc… Just depends on what you want out of your entertainment.

@Charles:

How much is enough punishment? Maybe we should ask Germany. My new setup for Spain is 10 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 AA gun, 1 tank, and 1 fighter.
I revised the setup above after a playtest.

So you dropped an 1 art and 1 mech from the orig Spanish army that you posted.

In your test I’m assuming the US attacked Spain

What did the US take in if so? (was I close on the US attack force)

How’d it go for the Americans afterwords (did UK reinforce)

Were the allies able to hold and advance, or did the axis push them back into the see?

OK maybe you add a couple (few) more inf to Spain (make it 8 inf the same as Turkey).

Say the US is invading Spain w/8 loaded tps (8 inf, 2 mech, 4 art, 2 tanks), and they also have 3 loaded carriers (3 ftrs, 3 tac) and the planes will join in. Even toss in 2 bmrs from England. I think this would be a typical US assault force. Say they are attacking from sz 91 or sz104, so the won’t get bombardment because of Spanish dd’s (damn Americans are always in a hurry so they attack from DC).

Yea the US has a 100% chance of killing Spain, but it should go 2 rounds. The US should loose on average 7 inf (pretty much all of them) and maybe a plane. Just saying it will hurt later taking out most of the US cannon fodder, and how much is enough punishment?

If you think about it Turkey and Spain would be the key players here (maybe Portugal because they kinda share space w/Spain, and have the most colonies). I think you could look at the Paris set up as a model, and keep Turkey and Spain reasonably close, but keep in mind the resources that Germany has to use to take Paris down G1. That plus neither Spain or Turkey had anywhere near the armed forces the French did (I realize that was greatly toned down for play ability). So you need to find the balance between too easy, and paying too big a price when setting this up.

The French units in France (not counting UK):
6 inf, 1 art, 1 tank, 1 ftr, and 1 AA

So using that as a template you keep the standing inf that is shaded in both Turkey and Spain as is, and just add 1 art, 1 tank, 1 ftr, and 1 AA gun.

Turkey - 8 inf, 1 art, 1 tank, 1 ftr, 1 AA gun (1 dd in sz99)
Spain - 6 inf, 1 art, 1 tank, 1 ftr, 1 AA gun (1 dd sz91, 1 dd sz104)

Then work the rest accordingly.

Couple other territories that might come into play are Sweden and Saudi because of IPC and strategic values.

I think the true neutrals ban is pretty ridiculous, and like the list you have put together for individual standing armies that includes some better units and a bit of navy (might be a bit over zealous though)

I have mixed feeling about countries that had colonies linked to them. My first thought was that if a country like Portugal was invaded that their 3 colonies would be immediately activated (pro axis/allies) against the power that attacked the home country. Then I thought if Portugal was attacked would their colonies actually pick up arms, but for game purposes yea I think you do it. However if Angola was invaded would Portugal go to war against the aggressor?

Do you lump the Iberian peninsula together and their colonies? Portugal feared Spain joining the axis and/or an axis assault through Spain. They also had an Anglo-Portuguese Alliance for over 600 years that Portuguese Government announced was still in tact at the start of the war (The Brits decided to let them stay neutral). So if Spain joined the axis, or Hitler invaded Spain, yea Portugal would join the allies (go pro allies). However if the UK/USA invaded Spain, Portugal certainly wouldn’t join the axis.

I am testing a game right now where I have messed around with the neutrals. I have tweaked the inf and gave some better units (art, tank, ftr) and some navy to the neutrals that matter like Turkey, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, and Argentina. I have even split Turkey (east and west) and Spain (north and south) into 2 territories. What I put down is very similar to what you listed (a bit lighter). The rest of the neutrals like in South America and Africa I  added one inf to all. If they had 0, they get 1 inf; If they had 2 they now have 3 etc….for simplicity.

Was also looking at a broad rule based on IPC value.
0 IPC value get 1 inf unless listed otherwise on the map (most won’t get invaded because they have no value).
1 IPC value they get the inf listed + 1 art
2 IPC or more they would get the inf listed +1 art, 1 tank

Place a dd in countries like Port, Spain, Turkey, Sweden, Argentina

But that doesn’t seem work in some cases?

I’m trying to come up with a Vichy rule that would benefit the axis some in the beginning, and won’t be too much of an allied advantage mid game. I would like the Colonial Free French to work similar to China, but takes them a while to build up before they can make a difference.

I’m looking at a Vichy rule that would allow the Germans to attack France, kill all French/UK units there, and still plunder Paris as normal (19 IPCs). A Vichy regime is then established as long as the Germans don’t attack S France G1. The Germans would be allowed to attack and take Normandy G1, but if they don’t once Paris falls and the Vichy Government is set up, Normandy becomes pro axis (so the Germans can occupy it G1). During Germany’s NCM they can claim Normandy (place German marker) and the French art (swap it out for German as being left behind from Dunkirk), but the french inf is moved to S France and becomes part of the Vichy army (giving them 2 inf, and 1 art).

The Germans still collect income from the 3 continental French territories including S France (say Vichy is supplying them w/resources or paying bribes etc…), but not from any of the Vichy colonial territories unless they take them by force OOB.

All of the French colonies become Vichy with the exception of French Equatorial Africa and New Hebrides which stays Free French (see later). The French inf that starts in each of the Vichy territories stays and becomes Vichy. Vichy units won’t be able to move or attack, but will def if attacked by either side. Each Vichy colonial territory operates independently so invading one of them won’t effect the others (with exception of S France). Axis can take control of Vichy territories (must kill the Vichy inf if any). The allies would be liberating Vichy territories for the Free French (still need to clear any Vichy units).  If the Germans invade S France it will make all the remaining Vichy territories pro allies. If the allies liberate S France or Normandy they become Free French, but they can’t use the ICs until Paris is liberated (no more US IC on the French coast). The FF can however build inf on their territories. Not sure if the French 12IPC NO should still be awarded for Liberating Paris (FF will have income)

It is a befit to Euro axis removing nearly all the French inf from the map, and forcing the allies to attack the Vichy territories when they invade N Africa. Vichy territories count for the Italian NO for control of N Africa, but they must also control Malta now. It will be up to the allies to stop the Italians from keeping this NO by invading N Africa. The allies will be able to grow the FF army as they do though.

French Equatorial Africa starts with 2 inf that will become the Free French army in Africa. FF start with no income but will collect income starting at the at the end of F1 for any orig French territories in their control (not Vichy). They can buy inf, and mobilize those inf in any orig French territory they control (like the Chinese).

The French income will rise as the allies sweep through Africa. The Free French can go anywhere but aren’t allowed to capture axis, pro axis, or pro allied territories, so if French units take them the territory (and any units) are awarded to the UK.

If the US lands troops in Africa, and there are no Axis ships anywhere in the Atlantic the Free French can also build art (maybe tpts?) as part of some lend lease.

Any time Paris is liberated all Vichy territory and units become French, and France operates like a normal power.

Edit all below: The French Fleet (under consideration)

Leaving French DD in sz71 (Madagascar): Leaving CA, DD in sz93 (Toulon); adding CA, DD tpt to sz 92 (Mers-el-kebir); adding CA, DD sz87 (Dakar).

When the Vichy Armistice goes into effect at the end of Germany’s combat phase you roll for each of the French ships (individually) adjacent to a Vichy territory (only ship that wouldn’t be rolled for is the French cruiser in sz110 which if not sunk G1 would be FF). Roll 1 join the FF (is moved on the FF turn), roll 2-3 they belong to Vichy (*see later), roll 4-5 scuttled (remove from play), roll 6 belong to Germany (can move in Germany’s NCM that turn).

*If ship goes Vichy it is neutral, and stays in sz. Vichy ships don’t block movement, but either side can attack Vichy ships to sink them. If a Vichy territory is amphib through sz containing Vichy ship(s) they will def (also stops bombardment). If the Vichy territory is attacked only through adjacent land territory any Vichy ships adjacent to that territory are rolled for again. 1 goes FF, 2-5 scuttled, 6 becomes German.

@simon33:

Interesting point about Sweden from SZ115 - hadn’t noticed that.

Nobody does, because Sweden is rarely brought into the game. The whole true neutrals band of brothers all for one, and one for all is pretty lame (I blame the French).

Both sides wanted control of Scandinavia, and had plans drawn up to invade both Norway and Sweden, or at least take over the iron ore regions and ports up there. Before the Germans invaded Norway/Denmark the the allies tried to get the Norwegians and the Swedes to allow them to move troops through their countries in the name of reinforcing Finland (Winter War). This was a hoax though, because the allies true intentions were to move in and take control of the Swedish iron ore mines, and the Norwegian ports that were being used to ship war materials (the port of Narvik was especially important in the winter when the Baltic ices up).

Germany invaded Norway for obvious strategic purposes, but also to protect their access to the Swedish iron ore and keep these trade routes open along the northern Norwegian coast line. Both sides actually invaded Norway at roughly the same time. The allies (w/Norwegian troops) moved into Navik and pushed back the Germans (they were interned in Sweden), but the allies were recalled once the Germans successfully invaded the Low Countries and France.

@Marshmallow:

I don’t think there’s any question about the location of the fighters at all. The airbase rules say that the fighters scramble to an “adjacent sea zone”. This means that the fighters are in the sea zone.

Marsh

I’m with Marsh, you scramble to the sz. If the territory you scrambled from is taken that turn you have 1 move to find a landing spot adjacent to that sz (territory or carrier). So if you scrambled from Novgorod into sz 115 in the Baltic and Novgorod was taken then you could land in Vyborg, Baltic states, Finland or Sweden (if activated), if any are friendly to you. You could also land on a friendly carrier in sz114 if it had space. If not the plane is lost.

@hecatomb:

Concerning this transports retreat discussion: following the rulebook (General Combat, step 1 & step 6 condition B), only units placed -along- the battle strip could open retreat option. Transports i.e. are placed -beside- the battle strip. So, can transports, if they are the only involved sea unit, create retreat options at all?

Yes transports are allowed to retreat

@wittmann:

I should have said that the amphibious assault can never take place, if the defender scrambles.

Also, cannot remember if the Sub is automatically in the naval battle, if a scramble takes place, or if the defender can choose not to fight (and defend at one), if no Destroyer is present, forcing it to surface.
Panther or Gamerman, please remind me of this.

The defenders sub would be in the battle if the defender scrambles.

@Charles:

I should say that no special rules will be added unless necessary for gameplay.  This means France will be "normal, " Denmark and Norway will simply be pro-allied, and Germany will go first but have very little in Western Germany but a lot of stuff in the East as well as The Baltic Sea (out of range of most Allies).  I will have one necessary rule that allows Russia to attack Vyborg (will be Pro-Axis if they don’t) and Poland (will be pro-allied if they don’t) and simply claim Bessarbia and Baltic States.

Italy will simply have a well -thought setup and they can declare war turn 1 or 2 and if they don’t UK can attack turn 2 or 3.

Allies will get much more Navy than Germany but their land armies will be smaller (especially Britain).

I can’t wait!

I understand your reluctance to special rules, and making Poland, Hol/Belg, Denmark and Norway (plus Yugo, and Greece) pro allies is a good fix that will allow the Germans to invade them w/o changing the rules for neutrals. Finland, Slov/Hungary, Romania, (and Bulgaria) being co-belligerents are in the pro axis camp, and the Germans (or Italians) can activate them oob in NCM in a couple turns. Also if the Italians start early are they allowed to activate what would normally be an original German territory (I would think not).

Just to point out you need to amend the German NO for holding Denmark and Norway so the Germans can get that NO G1 w/o being at war w/UK. I’m assuming that Germany don’t have to DOW on France/UK to invade these territories, but it would provoke the UK and France to DOW on their turn.

Just wondering if you are you planning on Germany starting with only the 3 German territories  (Germany, W Germany, and S Germany) and the rest pro axis or pro allies that they will take in the first couple turns. I’m just thinking their starting cash of 14 IPCs would be pretty low so their first buy wouldn’t help them a whole lot when invading France G2. Actually the French will have more starting income and out spend Germany on the first turn, so getting the set-up right will take some doing.

I like your plan of having just enough units in the west to take Denmark and Holland (not enough to invade France), but it might be a problem holding them. I think you will need to attack these pro allied territories so the allies can’t activate them claiming the units you start them off with (and the income) and set up def by adding to them, but a counter attack is likely unless you really under inflate the French.

With the bulk of the German forces in Germany at the Polish border some will attack Poland, some load tpts to invade Scandinavia (tpts in sz114) and the rest simply NCM into position for the assault on Paris. (I would think that including an attack on Yugo G1 would leave them too light in their other main battles so Yugo would be left for G2).  Any purchases will be placed in West Germany for G2, but Germany won’t have much starting income.

Can’t wait too see this, it should be very intriguing.

Yes Italy could be tricky starting out as a neutral power, but I think you have to limit them from going fully to war until the Germans attack France and/or UK (which would probably be turn 2). You need to allow them to annex Albania in the first turn though (April 1939), but don’t want them fully in the war until the second turn when they can DOW on the French and Brits on their own terms (after the Germans attack France/UK). If the Italians don’t DOW on round 2, the Brits can DOW on Italy turn 3 (pre-empt strike because Paris was attacked). Might even consider changing the Italians in the turn order to go right after Germany so they can DOW turn 2 before UK (and if they didn’t DOW allow UK to DOW the Italians). The Italians going right after Germany (as the Euro axis), wouldn’t be much different then the UK going right after the USA (as the western allies).

This also brings up what the Russians can do as a neutral power (they need to be able to make limited attacks). In the first turn (Sep/Nov 1939) they should invade Poland and part of Finland (Vyborg only). Then there is the Soviet-Japanese war in the summer of 1939 (not sure how you handled that on the Pac side, maybe allow for some border clashes before the NAP is signed and the whole Mongolia rule comes into place). Turn 2 (June 1940 around the time Germany invades France) the Russians need to annex Baltic States and Bessarabia. but shouldn’t be allowed to go any further until at war w/Euro axis. Maybe turn 3 (Sept 1941) Russia is allowed to invade NW Persia?

The time line for the Germans is going to be difficult regardless of how you handle things. Germany should start out with only 3 territories. W Germany, Southern Germany (includes Austria annex 1938), and Germany (includes Sudetenland annex 1938).

Territories like Finland, Slov/Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria are pro axis, but it will take a couple turns for them to get to Romania and Bulgaria to activate (which kinda fits the actual time line of 1940/1941)

Need to re-work the neutrals a bit so the Germans can attack what would be true neutral counties like Denmark and Norway. Maybe have a list of neutrals that can be attacked? Maybe even give an NO incentive to keep them from attacking territories like Sweden or Switz because it is more lucrative to leave them be? Although the Germans had invasion plans for both, they still benefited from them staying neutral as well w/o the hassles or resources needed to invade and garrison them.

IMO you don’t want to put restrictions on what territories the Germans can attack on the first turn, but you probably want to discourage them from attacking certain territories or Powers. Like you could have a Maginot Line in place so the Germans could have the option of attacking France on the first turn, but it will be devastating to do so (something like all French and English units def +1 when attacking France from W Germany). You want them to go through Holland/Belgium where they will face less resistance, and attack France on Turn 2. In light of this to show the allies were really not prepared for this plan you could rule in that the French and Brit units def-1 when attacked from Hol/Belg. This might help because maybe once the Germans take Hol/Belg the allies will try to pull some units out of Normandy/France instead of reinforcing them. Plus you kind a need the Dutch to fall to make the whole UK/Anz work in the Pac w/DEI.

What will the French buy on the first turn with their 19 IPCs, they could make it hard.

UK sent the BEF to France at the French/Belgium border in 1939, so they should be represented when the game starts (Normandy and France). Will the Germans be allowed to attack the Brits and/or French on the first turn?  (maybe but should be an incentive not to).

The political situation is kinda interesting, and you could follow history a bit and invoke a Phony War Rule as an incentive for Germany to not attack the UK/France directly on the first turn. If the Germans invaded Poland, Norway, Hol/Bel etc……, but don’t directly attack the French or UK this will provoke a Phony War. The French and UK will DOW on Germany on their respective turns, but aren’t allowed to  perform attacks against the Germans that turn (Phony War). They would be able to reinforce France, or pull some troops out (should limit how many transports they have in range). They will both surly move their navy out of harms way though so the Germans cant’ hit it on the second turn.

Yea, you can’t off load your ground units until you win the sea battle, so in the case of a scramble against lone transports it is impossible to win the sea battle. Therefore if the tpts can retreat they take their cargo with them.

I agree that if you bridged (didn’t move the transports in the combat move phase), then you can’t retreat your transports. I also agree that is an easy fix, you just point out in the combat move phase the different paths your transports took to get back to where they started lol.

I have to say that although the rules are in place to deal with this situation, it really shouldn’t come up unless you are just learning the game (maybe your whole group is learning). If I was playing with a newbie and they did this (or something similar) I would defiantly point out the error. Nothing like playing a game for hours (days) for it to come down to some BS where he looses 10 tps because he missed something that should have been obvious.

I just don’t see why you would ever take in lone tpts for an amphib, unless you were facing Japanese Kami’s (exposing surface warships), but you would still flood the sz with air to protect your tpts from scramble. If you can’t get warships in (maybe they are blocked, but can NCM in later for protection) then you still send air units into the sz to combat the possibility of a scramble. I could see getting diced and losing your escorts/air leaving you in this situation, but not setting up for destruction from the get go w/o any cover.

@Baron:

@WILD:

Several games like HBG Global War 1936 has a build chart that you place ships on and progress them through. It is off map, and the enemy can’t attack ships being built. Some powers like Italy Germany or UK could have a really hard time building a capital ship if you were able to destroy it in port. Maybe it would be better off map?
I wouldn’t mind being able to do damage to ships being built. Maybe equal to half of the original first payment or something, but not take them out while being built.

@WILD:

I don’t like that you could possibly lose your entire investment with one attack especially if you go to a 3 turn build for capital ships (which is closer to actual builds, but still about half if you consider a game round as about six months).

Plus there could still be confusion of which ships are damaged (auto repair), and which are being built laying on their side.

I agree these points create issues.
IMO, off-map is OK but must be clearly announce to other players, to not be taken as unspent IPCs.

Yea I think for simplicity off map would probably be best (can’t kill or damage it) and I would have a set place for these ships so everyone knows what is going on. The mobilization zones on the bottom corners of the map might work (or just place them on Saudi Arabia  :wink:)

Probably keep it to just capital ships (BB and carrier), and a min of 2 turns to build. Must pay half down, then pay other half next turn. Can allow multiple payments for second half if you want extending build time if your needs change (would need to track it). I don’t think I would offer a discount, or allow to pay extra for same turn deployment either (if you want a two turn rule it should be two turns lol).

I thought about adding cruisers to the two turn build, but figured that because most see cruisers as a poor investment keeping it one turn might add to its value.

Here is kind of a twist, maybe you drop 10 IPCs and say you are building a capital ship, but you don’t have to say what it is until the next turn when you finish paying for it.

Several games like HBG Global War 1936 has a build chart that you place ships on and progress them through. It is off map, and the enemy can’t attack ships being built.  Some powers like Italy Germany or UK could have a really hard time building a capital ship if you were able to destroy it in port. Maybe it would be better off map?

I wouldn’t mind being able to do damage to ships being built. Maybe equal to half of the original first payment or something, but not take them out while being built.

I don’t like that you could possibly lose your entire investment with one attack especially if you go to a 3 turn build for capital ships (which is closer to actual builds, but still about half if you consider a game round as about six months).

Plus there could still be confusion of which ships are damaged (auto repair), and which are being built laying on their side.

I think if units in the build stages are placed on the board you should use a maker to show stages of build, not laying it on its side to possibly confuse it with a damaged BB that auto fixes next turn.

I think the logical way to handle it would be air attacks (SBR), or maybe include sub attacks (roll one dice place damage)?

I’m just not sold on a ship in the building stages being able to fire, nor am I sure that war ships would be coming into shipyards to attack them. Plus if say you lay out 10 IPCs for a BB, and they attack it when it is on its side then the BB is removed from play?

I have been thinking of something similar, and I think 2 turns is a good place to start for capital ships. Was even thinking 3 turns for capital ships (BB carrier), 2 turns for cruiser, and same turn for dd, sub, tpt (same as OOB for smaller ships). I’m not sure about being able to fully attack a ship being built, or allowing it to def (no guns in the early stages) but maybe allow SBR on a ship being built up to 6 ipcs (maybe only 3 IPCs)? As the owner of the ship you must repair damage before paying for the next build level.

Below was edited:
For purchasing say a BB in 3 turns you have to put down half (10 IPCs), and the next turn you can advance it to the next level for min half the balance (5 IPCs). Then on the 3rd turn you pay it out for the remaining 5 IPCs. If it takes damage from SBR you have to buy out damage before you can pay to advance to the next build level.

BB 3 turns to build cost 20 IPC  T1-10IPC, T2-5 IPC, T3-5 IPC
CV 3 turns to build cost 16 IPC  T1-8 IPC, T2-4 IPC, T3-4 IPC
CA 2 turns to build cost 12 IPC T1-6 IPC, T2 6 IPC

Yea, lets not get carried away here. I think it would be ok for a 1 IPC reduction for tanks and mech built there with the production of a minor (3 units). That way the bonus is 3 IPC max per turn “if” they decide to build there. I don’t think you should be able to build 10+ units at a reduced cost, or get any units for free.

I also think you need to show the need for moving your production center away from the eastern front too (Germans advancing). Some kind of event to trigger this bonus such as the Russians loosing one of their 3 forward minor ICs. I don’t think there would be a need for such a bonus if say the Germans went Sea Lion.

Also something to think about is the NAP between the Russians and the Japanese. How high was the threat of the Japanese getting to this facility through Siberia or China in the real war. In this game the Japanese come a calling quite often, and if that was the case in the war would the Russians have picked a different region to set up their tank plants. Maybe allow for an alternate location?