Posts made by Van_Trump

This is the basic J1 attack:

Take PI with 2 transports (2 inf 1 art 1 tank) from home fleet + cv from Truk (planes in land battle) + okinawa fleet.
Eliminate UK BB (and transports) with 3 Bmb + Formosa fighter. (wonder if you knew about this move)
Kill New Britain sub with DD
Kill Hawaii Tr with SS

Take Kwantung, Yunan, etc… with troops and planes on continent + additional planes from Japan.

Speed is critical for Japan. You have to neutralize UK/China in 3-4 turns. If you find yourself having to spend heavily on mainland forces as well as building your navy the allies have won.

This US strategy assumes a kill UK/China first strategy for Japan (which is optimal).

Build up your US fleet until it is unbeatable. Send a couple of bombers to Queensland. If TRUK is open send a transport + inf to take it. Otherwise you can send inf + art to help retake ANZAC national objective. These are distractions.

You want to be prepared to threaten Japan US5.

I normally start by buying subs the first three turns. Maybe the odd DD or Bomber.

Turn 4 buy transports + stuff to put on them.

Turn 5 buy bombers (or more subs) + naval base on midway. Turn 5 move everything to Midway.

You can now potentially land on Korea, Japan (difficult to screen attack, Japan needs to use 3 DD’s), Okinawa, Iwo Jima,  Mainland China (taking Hong Kong next turn if possible)

Japan is forced to reinforce their home islands, especially with fighters.

If Japan effectively defends, keep building up forces on Midway until you can take and hold Sea of Japan. Ultimately you want Japan to be forced to retreat their fleet to their home islands before India/China falls. In this case you would need to send some transports + escort to TRUK(DD screen if necessary), replenishing Midway with more loaded transports from WUS; to threaten DEI/Phillipines. ANZAC can reinf with fighters as needed.

A competent Japan can counter this, neutralizing UK (not necessarily taking India) and demolishing China while keeping their fleet at home. Part of their fleet would have to be kept near DEI.

In this scenario can the Allies outspend Japan? Probably not. Japan builds directly in Sea of Japan while USA builds on west coast. US is always one turn behind Japan builds.
Also, once China is gone, Japan retreats ALL of their airforce to home islands, builds all subs one turn and can effectively strike at US fleet off Midway. US forced to retreat to Hawaii.

Using this strategy can Allies win? Against a strong Japan player, no. Against a mediocre player, yes.

I have played bids before so I understand the mechanics.

My question was more along the vein of: Ok, you’ve got your extra IPC’s to spend before the game starts; where do you place the extra units to balance the game for the allies?

You really can’t calculate the bid unless you know what you are reinforcing.

What are you trying to accomplish with the bid?

Prevent loss of UK Transports J1 (you would need AC + fighter = 26 ipcs) Japan can bring 4 bombers + fighter = 18 pips or 3 hits. The 2 hit AC would be enough to dissuade me. After UK1 the AC would have 2 fighters on it going forward. DEI capture is within your grasp. This is only a short-term tactical victory for the allies, however. Has huge distraction potential, though. Basically Japan would have to commit most of their fleet to attack the Bay of Bengal. (Air base on Ceylon, anyone?)

Prevent capture of Phillipines (stack of infantry would do job, say about 9 = 27 ipcs. If you can get away with only 8 put a UK inf on Borneo) Japan needs to funnel infantry to mainland Asia. Leaving it alone means US gets +7 ipc for the balance of the game (plus they get to keep the bomber!). Allies can even add fighters if they see the Japanese buildup. DD and Transport are toast regardless.

Reinforce Burma Road for China. (aa gun + 8 inf in Yunnan = 29 ipcs) With the Japanese firepower(airforce) that can be brought to bear on a chinese defensive stack I don’t know how practical this is. If UK reinforces with fighters it is doable (maybe, I normally drool if I see UK fighters in Yunnan). The aa gun alone would NOT deter me. Japan has to concentrate ground forces before tackling this strong point. Extra 2inf a turn on the front lines for China as long as this strong point is held. Problem with this build is you force Japan into the correct strategy.

Would be nice if one inf can be split off from these builds for ANZAC in New Guinia so NO can be accomplished on first turn.

All this would have to be playtested, of course.

My personal preference is to ban J1 attacks.

This strategy for US seems sound.

One question. What if Japan allows subs to take sea of Japan and then counter attacks with a couple of DD’s and massed air force? Subs only defend on 1’s.

I think the counter to this is to keep a large CAP based on Japan for scrambling, together with 4-5 DD’s in Sea of Japan. Remember USA takes 2 turns to reach front lines, while Japan can build reinforcements in situ. So Japan always has 2 turns notice to build DD’s.
If US assembles a truly collosal fleet of subs I would dodge their attack and sink them in counterattack if they venture into the sea of Japan.

It all depends on how fast USA can build an unassailable fleet; versus how fast Japan can consolidate Asia and DEI.

In games I have played the allies have panicked whenever UK/China collapse too quickly and the US exposes their fleet prematurely.(I have been guilty of this myself once.)

With a level head and a conservative ANZAC player the allies should be able to last long enough for the US mega fleet to be a factor.

Once UK is bottled up in India with a sub or 2 in the sea zone the british are neutralized.
No need to take India turn 3 or 4 if UK income is 1 ipc.
Eliminate China and concentrate on ANZAC and USA.
Take India at your leisure.

@idk_iam_swiss:

THREE: As the Chinese concentrate your attack in the north. it will force the japanese to make a decision. either attack china or the UK.

I recommend a fighting retreat to the north. Gradually move your stack further and further away, forcing Japan to commit more ground forces north (and as far away from India as possible). Similar to what USSR had to do in the original game.

I know this abandons the Burma road but we’re talking strategy, not tactics.

This helps delay the fall of India (assuming UK has been building an infantry stack every turn.)

Well, I just finished playing 2 more games, once as the allies and once as the axis.
As Japan I restricted myself to J2 attack. My opponent attacked on J3 (He won’t do that again. Next time J1 attack for sure, he says.)

Rather than a J1 attack “breaking” the game, I think it makes it less enjoyable, particularly for the UK player. Yeah, I know you can evacuate the planes to Australia before India falls, but what fun is that?

After J1 attack, China and UK get stomped.

OK, after J2 they also get stomped but at least UK gets to do something with their fleet (occupying 2 money islands and linking up their RN). UK also gets lots more money to spend for at least one turn.

In a 2 player game it’s not that big a deal, but in a multiplayer game J2 attack is the way to go.

The problem I had as US was stretched supply lines once you extend yourself beyond Hawaii.

US occupied Truk or Guam is vulnerable to a counter attack from Japan.
To prevent this I would spend a turn as Japan buying subs to deter the US fleet from coming too close.

The solution for US is to wait a couple of turns to build up an unassailable fleet; but do you have the time?

I like the ideas for the allies kaufstchick.

If you are resigning yourself to India falling, then does it make sense to move up the UK infantry, together with the planes, to help China? That way they are reinforcing each other and China lasts longer.

It gives UK more aggressive options and you have opportunities for double attacks: First China, then UK.

@Buckeyeboy:

The reason I threw this post out there was to see if anyone had tried it or would have the chance to play test it before I could. What I was looking for was to see if anyone had a solid US strategy.

Japan can pretty much do anything it pleases and win. J1 attack may speed up the process, but the inevitable results will be the same with a competent J player.

Sending the J fleet to Wake allows the US to build a CV T1 and land the planes from HI on it, and then turtle up on the west coast. They may temporarily seed HI to J, but once they catch the turn 2 paycheck, it will be a cold day for J to take on the US in her own front yard. Not to mention the fact that if the J fleet is in north pacific, UK buys a CV T1, a Trns T2  and then runs a muck in the DEI with the ANZACers. How do I know this? It’s what I did to Kaufschtick when he tried it on me f2f last week. It is two of the few allied wins we’ve seen. We tried it twice.

I’m curious. When you allowed J to take Hawaii, how many fighters did Japan move there the following turn? Was it late enought in the game that the US was able to counter right away? With the scrambling rules, very tough to take it back if Japan has like 12 planes on HI. Also, after taking Hawaii, did Japan go after Sydney or Calcutta?

Oh, and I station Japanese fleet on Midway, rather than Wake. With a Naval base it is within striking distance of Western US. Best counter is to turn turtle, build SS’s, a few DD’s, bombers and stack fighters on HI until the counter attack is ready.
Problem is, by the time the counter is ready UK and China are no more.

Basic J1 attack:

Attack open Chinese territories, moving troops inland.
Take Yunan, Kwangtung, cut Burma road, with available inf, arti, planes.

Use 3 Bombers + Formosa fighter to take out UK BB and transports. (the fighter is so you don’t lose a bomber) Use the 4th bomber to help out against China.

Use all 3 loaded transports to take Phillipines. (the idea if enough troops survive is to take Malaya next turn) If you stack your fleet next to Phil ANZAC will be too terrified to send its fighter to Malaya. The downside is US is able to move in force to Hawaii.

Use Caroline DD to take out New Britain SS
Use Japan SS to take out Hawaii transport.

Allies are down to US west coast transport and you can take the Dutch Islands unchallenge on J2 and J3. Note because Phil has naval base (3 sea moves) so you can pick up surviving inf in Kwangtung to help with your invasion of Malaya (or take the Dutch islands if you like)

J2 move 2 of your CVs back to Caroline islands to keep US in check.

There are more optimal openings but this is the simplest and least risky.

I would leave the fighter and infantry in PI.
Also leave the DD there.
Evacuate Bomber to HI
Move transport out of range.

In any case, always leave at least 1 infantry even if you evacuate everything else.
Chinese and UK players will not be happy with you if Japan can take PI with 1 transport and 1 inf.

As you say, very much a moot point after J1 attack.

Kind of like asking what to do with the UK transports.

@kaufschtick:

I don’t know fellas, but I’m thinking that the US and ANZAC player(s) had better start thinking and building from the onset with the thought in mind that India & China are going to fall, sooner or later.

I would even go so far as to suggest the following. ANZAC1 buy 1 transport, bank 3 IPCs. Send the at start Transport to New Guinea with two infantry with the aim of securing Dutch New Guinea and hopefully getting the ANZAC income to 15 IPCs by ANZAC2.

I’d go even further by suggesting that the RAF fly out of India at the latest possible turn and fly to Australia, where they can reach either Western Australia or the Northern Territory.

The cool thing for the Allies when India falls, is that the Japanese won’t recieve a really big boost to their IPCs from capturing India for gaining Britians currently held IPCs! Britian will normally only be holding like 3 or 4 IPCs…maybe. With a sub sitting off India, Britian collects only 2 IPCs, and it could be down to just 1!  So if you see the Japanese pull a sub off the shores of India, you know he or she is going to strike the next turn! If they don’t they will have just sunk 2/3 IPCs they could have captured; just saying.

Anyway, if Japan controls all of China, and all of Britian’s stuff (they hopefully don’t have Canadian B.C.) in the Far East, Vietnam, the DEI & the PI, they’ll be at 73 with the DEI bonus.

The Allies could be at 55 for the US and 15 for the ANZAC player with that bonus, which is 70. Like I said earlier, if the US grabs Iwo early on, it’d be 72 Japan vs 71 Allies. Japan going for Australia, the US trying to get a toe hold in Asia. I mean, at this point, by comparing IPCs, it should still be a game. If the ANZACers get a second minor IC going, then I’m hoping that Australia could be a tough fight.

Who knows though, we’ve always sold out the Allied buys and moves on trying to go all out to save India, and that has always resulted in Australia being wide open.

If the Allies try instead concentrating on building up Australia right off, and the US building up it’s air strength and grabbing key bases to work from early like Iwo; a naval base on Wake; trying to grab Guam or the Marshalls; then it could be a game. The Allies use China and Britian to grind down as much Japanese units as is possible while allowing the US & ANZACers to build up strength for the coming fight.

Who knows, maybe in the Europe version, India will have another half that the British can fall back further to? I mean, if Austarlia now has several territories with a total of like 7 or so IPCs overall, surely India won’t just be a one, 3 IPC territory? The other half surely has to have another seperate territory with it’s own IPC value and possibly IC & bases.

So maybe the design took into account that India may get whacked, but the Japanese still need 6 VCs to win.

It is an interesting strategy. After a J1 capture of Midway, India still falls; just a turn or 2 later.

Do you really want to know Japan’s counter?

Ok. If I see the UK fighters pull out of India before it falls I buy subs on Japan’s next turn.
In fact, I probably buy the subs the turn before India falls regardless.
The following turn the subs go to TRUK and the turn after that they surround a certain island continent that begins with the letter A.
It becomes UK all over again. With an income near zero the fall of Sydney is only a matter of time.
Japan can DD screen the US to delay reinforcements. Of course if Japan has a fully reinforced Midway naval base (established on J1) the Americans have other concerns.

I am going to institute house rules of NO J1 attacks on allies. Or have Japan take their turn last for even more of an Allied boost.
It makes for a more interesting game with even chances on both sides instead of this logic experiment of finding some master stroke by the Allies to threaten Japan early on,
Only to have it countered by Kaufschtick.

I have been assuming Japan moves in force to Midway J1 to tie up the US.

I agree a combination of subs + Bombers are the best buy to counterstrike, plus a few DD’s and Transports to give a credible threat.

The problem is timing after a J1 attack. India and China fall too quickly.

I still say the best balance is to simply ban a J1 attack on the allies. You could also try banning new IC construction but the J1 ban is simplest.

@Gravy:

My friend and I had a real blast playing this game…very balanced until we came up with the J1 attack, hit the Philipines in J2, build minor IC in Asia, and the real killer…send two JAP subs to raid the India convoy.  Man its tough to beat because now Japan can outnumber the Allies ship for ship…I’ll keep trying.

Sure you can take the Japanese fleets out, as I have many times but Japan can just keep pumping them out while slowly marching closer and closer to India…no need to rush it because the goal is to keep the US contained and man does it work well.  Try it,maybe I’m wrong.

You are correct. An all-out attack on India is not optimal. ANZAC fighters can reach India by ANZAC turn 2.

Japan can quickly starve UK to death with only a third of its fleet.
DEI, Malaya, Hong Kong in Japanese hands. What does the UK have left? And once the remaining CA and DD are gone Jap subs can reduce UK income to zero. No need to rush. India will inevitably fall.

Where are the other two-thirds of the IJN? Either Truk or Japan. That’s if you don’t avail yourself of the J1 Midway attack.

Are players not aware of just how fast the IJN can move across the board with Naval Bases?

I am aware that if the US takes Korea the allies have won. I simply don’t believe the US can build up fast enough to challenge the Japanese fleet after the J1 attack. On the first turn US has 1 transport left.
Just what are these Korean conquerers buying on US1 with 17 IPC’s?

On US2 and US3 you can build masses of DD’s and SS’s but you also have to find the money to buy additional transports.

From there it takes you 2 turns to get to Japan/Korea, assuming of course that the Japanese player is passive and doesn’t send out any DD screens to delay you an additional turn or 2.

So against a competent Japan player the absolute earliest you could land on Korea is US6.
And only if Japan decides to protect Truk instead of Japan.
And is spending all of their money on the mainland against 2 foes that have near zero income instead building DD’s to defend against a very, very obvious move by the US.

These are major assumptions.

The games I have played after a J1 attack lasted until turn 5; once to turn 6. In every case Japan had a clear path to victory and the allies resigned.

At issue is the speed of Japan’s growth (and the destruction of significant Allied materiel) after a J1 attack.
And there are more than one turn 1 attacks that work for Japan.

See the Wake, Midway Naval base thread for a particularly nasty one.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=17758.0

US taking Korea???
On what turn? I agree if the game lasts past 7 or 8 turns Japan is probably toast.
The one game I played where US took Korea was after a J3 attack.

The games I’ve played where Japan attacked on turn 1 were decided by turn 5.

Well, it is Pacific 1940.

Lest we forget, in WWll Japan did not attack the Allies until December 1941.

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/pacificwar/timeline.htm

Short of stripping away some of Japan’s overwhelming airforce banning the J1 attack is the way to go.

It has the advantage of simplicity.

I believe UK can delay to J4 at least using his fleet to block movement.

Regardless, ANZAC can all fighters to India before the attack hits by saving 5ipcs & building an Airbase on Northern Territory on turn 2. This enables all 4 fighters to be in India before J3.

Also Kauf, when Hong Kong falls on J1 that’s 5 less IPC’s for UK (National Objective)

Ah, Razor, but Japan is not after Capitals; victory cities are what wins the game.
Manila + Hong Kong make 4. Just 2 more to go after that.
The J1 attack puts the Allies back on their heels, reeling from several devastating punches.

I have come to the conclusion that banning the J1 attack is the only way to balance this game.
All you have to add to the rules is the following phrase: Beginning with Japan’s 2nd turn, Japan has the option to attack…