Yay thanks for good karma!
And seriously what is this like a glass ceiling? Every time I get good karma, it seems like someone out there’s like “I hate bean. Me smack with bad karma.” I always seem to have 2 more bad karma points than good ones, which is really strange.
I’m being serious, the rolling eyes is to express annoyance at having to manage logistics as the Allies. It’s like going :roll: I have to take out the trash again… aww man.
To me I’m looking for gamebreaking changes in LL that would convince me that it doesn’t have any validity for analyzing overall strategies in ADS. I don’t really get stuck on very small details in very small battles in which we’re talking about efficiency in fractions of IPCs - which either side can take advantage of. I’m looking at the forest, not the trees.
I think it’s something to have to live with, but it’s still better to look at overall strategies than having every other game in ADS screwed over by some important battle going horribly wrong.
It’s not like you lose 1 IPC in starting units for every bad karma point you have or something.
That’d be hilarious. You’d have -27 IPCs, what would you remove, like your battleship from SZ13 and an infantry from Midway? That wouldn’t have as humongous an impact as say removing 9 Russian inf lol!
England and America have the problem of getting their units into stacks to begin with since they have to transport them.
Yup yup gotta agree, the Allies are stronger but harder to use. It’s easier to jilt the Allied game with a gambit than it is to jilt the Axis game because of all the damn transport logistics. :roll:
The overall idea is the same - you’re trading territories and eventually upping the blinds to convince the enemy to either abandon trading or spend more than he can. Just because it’s more certain in LL to use absolute minimum force to clear 2 inf does not change the overall idea or picture in ADS. To me I’m looking for gamebreaking changes in LL that would convince me that it doesn’t have any validity for analyzing overall strategies in ADS. I don’t really get stuck on very small details in very small battles in which we’re talking about efficiency in fractions of IPCs - which either side can take advantage of. I’m looking at the forest, not the trees.
Whether you picket with 1, 2, or 3 inf in ADS vs LL does not change the overall tactics. You picket less in LL because yes, it’s true that it’s very easy to calculate a precise strafe. You could send 12 inf at 3 inf and instantly trade 2 inf for 1, which you really wouldn’t try in ADS. But that really cuts both sides; Germany can’t really up the blinds early on to bleed Russia, nor can the Allies up the blinds when trying to contain Germany. The general idea though remains the economical trade of territories, which isn’t broken by LL.
Perhaps LL is longer because you can’t up the blinds as an intimidation factor as easily, but that doesn’t change the overall ideas going on.
Well apparently I’m accumulating bad karma which is possibly in response to this thread : /
Do you need some karma too Jen? I haven’t used it yet but I’m very tempted to.
I guess it’s not fortress Moscow that you really fear, but it’s more like…strafe-happy Moscow with 50 inf 10 arm and art/figs from Russia? I interpreted fortress Moscow as an impenetrable defense while the Allies gather more money than the Axis (Europe + Africa > all of Asia), but maybe you’re really fearing Russian strafes of Cauc/Novo with inf + its arm and stuff. Maybe I interpreted wrong.
In response to that, I usually designate 20-30 inf as pushers that go hardcore and help push Germany back to the capital. I don’t care if they die, in fact I’d rather they die so that the UK can accumulate one solid strike force. Which is not to say that I’m throwing them away in bad trades, but I’m hardly bothered if Germany targets them over UK inf because they are too far to help Moscow anyhow, and the Allies could use a little help moving in to E. Europe.
When you need to crack the German capital, you’d prefer to have a massive UK strikeforce with little Russian inf left rather than lots of Russian inf in E. Europe with little little UK inf left. And the other 10-20 inf + all builds from there on out is to defend against Japan with massive strafing power. Maybe I didn’t understand your case.
I’m rinky dink. 256 RAM with 40 of it onboard video. ;/
To he who knocks, the door shall be opened.
If you want good karma, post here and also give good karma to those who ask. On a regular basis. Very often. A lot!
Pet me, the cow needs love! :lol:
I see your point that you cannot bait ever at all in LL, and you are absolutely 100% correct about this. In fact, this is what I have been saying from a a few months about LL that strafing is too precise is the main difference between LL and ADS. I know that. And you know it too.
But do you see my point that you can still strafe in ADS? It’s a very subtle difference we’re talking about now. We don’t have to be in contradiction since we’re talking about different things - you say baiting doesn’t work in LL (true) I say you can still strafe in ADS (also true). I’m not saying you have the same precision in ADS obviously, but you can still find the numbers to make it at least slightly favorable. Like Darth said, switching from ADS to LL does not suddenly make strafing invalid due to doubt of taking the territory. You can modify your attack to have a small chance of taking the territory. There is a point at which the risk is small enough that the gains are still worth it.
If you send too much offense, you take the territory too often, which is bad. If you send too little offense, you do not deal enough damage compared to the losses you take, which is also bad. But there has to be something in between in which you do not have a significant chance of taking the territory (5-10%), yet still are dealing more damage than you take (1:1 at worst). Do you acknowledge this? Maybe I have not been making myself clear until this point, but now do you understand what I am saying? There’s no need for all of this frustration between us. I say strafing is still an option in ADS. You say it’s not as great of an option as in LL. We are in agreement, or at least we are not in disagreement, aren’t we?
Also, how do you send 4 figs and a bomber if there’s a good chance of a couple menacing boats in sz59 threatening your transports (perhaps with UK bomber coverage as well)? I figure 2 planes are in China, that leaves you nothing to deal with any other possible threats. The E.Indies boats alone make for a very shaky attack on a destroyer and CV (even worse if stacked with the trn as well). They’re heavily favored to win, but you stand a very good chance to lose at least one, if not 2 capital ships. That doesn’t even address the possibilities of whether there’s a sub in sz45, a stack in bury, or what you might want to do with those fighters on J2. Sending 5 planes on a tour of hawaii seems like overkill, and would ultimately hurt you elsewhere.
Ok great questions, here we go.
I would say keep these goals in mind:
I highly do not recommend purchasing anything other than tp/complex. A destroyer buy is useless later on and may not even be enough to deter a strafe, a carrier is overkill for J1, a btl is also overkill and doesn’t leave you any money anyways to buy tp/complex, land units are worthless since you’re looking for a way to get them off of Japan since you already have enough there, and fighters you have plenty of already for round 1. Well maybe keep fighters in mind but I’ve never had to buy them on J1.
You must hit China. The reason for this is because you need to get some land, and you need to bust up the midline of Asia before it becomes too difficult. The American units there border all of your Asian territories, and you do not want to have them expanding early on, nor do you want that American fighter as an additional attacking piece on your navy. The minimum is 5 inf 2 fig.
Do not overextend with too many weak attacks. You may have to allow some evil to survive, but do not do the enemy’s job for them by attacking many targets with barely enough force, because you can easily wind up losing valuable navy, which simply costs too much to replace with Japan’s income.
Do not leave anything exposed after J1. This includes not only your purchases, but your fighters and other naval units.
Do not be so afraid to lose 1 or 2 fighters. If the battle is very important, 1 or 2 fighters is an acceptable cost. You don’t need the full 6 fighters to push in Asia so don’t conserve a fighter if it makes life very hard for you out in the seas later on. Of course the more fighters the better in Asia, but think long term instead of simply focusing on having a shiny intact airforce.
When given the option, massacre a stack in Buryatia over hitting Pearl, but do not plan to lose fighters in this engagement since it’s inf we’re talking about, not navy. This makes use of your bb shot as well as pretty much removes Russian defense in Asia leaving you free to expand. Generally though if Bury has more than 6 inf, do not hit it. If it has 6 inf, then take 2 inf Manch 1 inf 1 arm or 1 art from Japan + airforce.
For some specific cases:
If there’s just a destroyer off of Kwang, you can relax. If you’re absolutely crazy about hitting China hard, then use the E. Indies figs in China for 7 inf 4 fig and simply send the btl + car to Kwang. You shouldn’t even really care if you happen to lose the carrier, unless you suspect KJF. If you do care, then send 1 fig to Kwang with your BB/car and send the other fig to China.
If there’s a destroyer + carrier off of Kwang the way I normally like to do it is send the entire E. Indies fleet at it. You have a great chance of whooping them, sometimes you will lose a carrier but big deal.
If they sent a destroyer and it got killed, then your E. Indies fighters are generally free to go to China (rare, but remember to capitalize on good luck).
If they sent a destroyer/carrier/tp to Kwang, then rejoice because the Germans are facing less opposition in Africa (hopefully). You can still send the E. Indies fleet at it, and there’s also a funny thing you can do which is send both bbs 1 car at it then immediately retreat to SZ60. The bb absorb 2 hits if they come, and you have nice defense in SZ60.
If they send dest/car to kwang and block F. Indo with a tp, then you need to watch out because you can’t reach kwang with your Indies fleet. Kill the tp obviously with your btl/car, and you’ll have to do something to protect your transports (if you build transports).
Now there are some combination situations which are tricky. The most compound problem is if the UK hits your sub with their fighter/sub and reinforces Pearl and their sub lives and also there’s a dest/car in Kwang and there’s a bomber in Sinkiang and a stack of 6 inf in Bury with 1 fig and a blocking transport off of F. Indo which prevents your E. Indies fleet from attacking Kwang even if you wanted to. Any transports you build anywhere are not safe by themselves, Pearl is difficult, Kwang is unreachable, Bury is unattackable, and the UK sub survived.
First you need to realize that you should not be completely doomed, because Germany should be all over Africa if you see something like this as well as having an easy time in Europe to the Russian fig being off in Bury. You are going to be hard-pressed early, but you just need to keep focused by centralizing your defenses and attacking only what you can, and you’ll just have to let some evil survive.
With such a nasty combination on your doorstep, this is when I might abandon Pearl, either heavy or light. The reason for this is because the Allies have a massive chokehold on SZ60/61 and if you don’t have the proper defenses there immediately, it may take you far too long to get units onto land where you get your money from. But don’t take my word for it, there is the option of still hitting Pearl heavy and not building any tps, like build a complex in Kwang. That might be a good option if you really need to clear the waters.
Consolidate the best you can, take out the UK blocker tp off of Indo with the btl/car from E. Indies, and hit China ultra hard with all airforce that can hit, and simply stage your carolines fleet back to SZ60 with a fighter or 2 during noncombat, take one inf from Wake Island back to Japan, and mobilize your tran. From there Bury is finished if they stick around unless they reinforce it with more stuff, but even if you can’t attack it next round at least you can start shuffling units to the mainland. Pearl lives, but you have nothing exposed and you’re ready to go. Even if UK/Russia walk in on manch/f. indo, you can counterattack with your China inf to collect the cash.
Or alternatively, still go after Pearl hard, but build no tran. This will be Pearl super heavy 4 fig 1 bom 1 btl 1 dest 1 car, and don’t be afraid to lose 1 or 2 figs. Still kill the blocker tp with your Indies fleet, and China with 7 inf 2 fig. This could work, you won’t be able to counter Bury next turn but at least the Allied fleets are a non-issue at the end of J1, all they have left is a sub in Solomons and the kwang fleet which both can’t do anything due to the btl/carrier groups they’re next to. Complex goes to Kwang since it’s safe and you will have to suffer an SBR, but you can still fight your way out of the land situation.
It’s kind of a give or take situation, do you either prepare heavy for land, or take out the seas?
Kinda funny that we have all these people defending LL vs ADS and no one taking the challenge to actually play it. Tongue
Well as usual I manage to evade your generalities, since we’ve already been engaged in a LL game. :wink:
You cannot really use LL for strategy building in ADS because you cannot run an ADS game under the same results most times. ADS has a lot of flux. Defenders can get 80% hits. Attackers with punch in the hundreds can totally miss. And there is only a 67% chance that an infantry + 4 fighters is going to kill two defending infantry and NOT lose a fighter.
Err…didn’t we just discuss this? 11% to lose a fighter, not 33%.
And I’m very aware that ADS fluxes, but it fluxes both ways. It still averages out for the vast majority and for the most imporant battles to the same result, and even in the ones in which it is different such as 100% trading precision, it does not clearly favor one side since either side can build artillery or use fighters. Hence why I do not think it is a comletely, significantly different game to the point where it’s absolutely useless for looking at strategy. Did I miss any nuances?
You could get really nailed! (maybe instead of 17 hits with your attacking infantry you get 3? What if the defender gets 80 hits instead of 67 in round 1?)
Every time I hear an argument like this my head implodes. You have to balance it out by the fact that you could also with the exact same frequency, hit a massive windfall in that battle. It’s a bell curve. It’s symmetric on both sides. There’s no point in saying that “oh, well the bad part could happen” because I immediately respond “well, the good part could happen” and we’re back to ground zero.
You’re bumping into the trees looking for an imaginary forest. It’s not necessarily a bad idea to attack with 2 inf 4 fig in LL. In fact, there is no detriment to it as long as it’s a 2 IPC territory. In fact, you should if it’s a 3 IPC territory. The extra 3 IPC inf you send to hold the territory already pays for itself, collecting 2 from the territory and dealing 1 IPC damage when the enemy comes. It more than pays for itself if it’s a 3 IPC territory. Also, it forces a response, whereas if you send just 1 inf, the majority of the time it dies and the enemy can choose to either send nothing, send one inf, or stack it with fighters since he controls it at the beginning of his next turn. Or perhaps something can blitz through that you didn’t want to.
And even let’s just say you’re right because we’re ignoring all the circumstances in which you do want to actually take the territory: this may favor the Axis early on in one fight maximum per round, but it is very slight nickle and dime we’re talking here, and the Allies can easily catch up with all those fighters you love to build with the Allies.
Plus, why would I put 2 inf in a territory like that? Do you not think the opponent knows that you will send 1 inf + 4 fig? It seems like you’re acting so surprised and you’re instructing me on what you would do, but I have already known this for LL as well. I’d just keep 1 inf to the territory if I can manage. If there’s 2 there it’s only because I overcompensated, but because I was unaware of your tactics.
I don’t understand any of Jen’s arguments about Pearl light allowing you to blitz Russia faster. Heavy Pearl immediately frees up 2 extra figs which will land in Kwang or F. Indo; and they are already on the mainland at the end of J1 for a total of 4 fighters on the mainland.
Light Pearl now has you with 4 figs way out at sea, because there’s no way for them to land on the mainland on J1. What’s up with that?
Check your math. The chance that both inf hit is 1/3 x 1/3 = 1/9 = 11%. The only time in which you should lose a fighter is if both inf hit, because you should retreat if you have no inf screen.
It may be a huge difference, it may not. If you’re the kind of person who likes to take territories and makes sure to do so, it doesn’t make a huge difference because you will send 2-3 inf. If you’re the kind of person who likes economy of force, then maybe you will upgrade to 2 inf instead of 1. But that generally will not dictate how the whole game goes, because that’s nitpicking in nickle and dime territories where generally both sides have enough inf to be able to throw 1-2 inf in each territory anyways.
@Cmdr:
In LL, I don’t think any gambit would work unless your opponent doesn’t know how to calculate the correct punch to get the victory conditions s/he wants.
Thus, every action by Germany needs to be done with the knowledge aforethought that the allies will be able to hit you with just enough punch to win what they want. There will be no need for the allies to worry that your transport will hit in defense of the SZ 14 fleet, since your combined punch is 5. That means 2 fighters/bomber will get at least one hit (probably two hits) and the defender can get no more then one hit in the first round of battle OR the second round of battle. Thus, it is impossible for the attacker to lose both fighters and the bomber. Where-as in ADS, there’s at least hope that the transport will hit and the battleship will hit. A pretty decent chance of both hitting, actually (11%).
That’s what I mean when it’s a DIFFERENT GAME. Which is what I’ve been saying the WHOLE time. (And evidentially getting bad karma from people LIKE you for saying.) It is a different game. It’s as different as LHTR 1.3 is to AAR-OOB or LHTR 2.0 is to LHTR 1.3.
Jennifer, you’re backpedaling and I’m not even sure what you’re saying anymore. I think previously the impression I got from you was that LL is not just a different game, but a completely/significantly different game that has no value in diagnosing strategy. Now you’re backpedaling to “it’s just different.” Where are you at now?
It’s very similar to how you backpedaled on your KJF strategy by saying first it’s better than KGF, to it’s viable, to “well, Germany has to kill Russia in a KJF.” You start with something you can’t prove, then jump back to something beyond obvious in order to save face.
OK, to specifics again. In my example of the 5 inf picket in Kar, Bel and Ukr…. the Russians have huge numbers just like your Germans did in EEU… Those three territories are dead zoned. You CAN NOT move into one HARD as you point out. That’s part of the point of actually throwing out the 5 inf picket fence. Expensive trading areas.
Again your example is incomplete and bad. If the Russians have enough inf such that they can throw 15 of them into dead zones and still be able to kill a German stack if it advances heavily, then the Germans have already lost anyways. I don’t see how Russia could be missing that much inf and still kill a complete German stack move-in. I would like I say throw 3 inf + 5-6 figs + 1 bomb to one stack, which I don’t even care if I take it’s simply trading 3 inf for 5 inf, then I move completely into the other stack, Russia is missing 15 infantry with which to counterattack me. 10 are dead, and 5 are far away in some other zone, unable to reach the one I just moved into. If Russia can still attack me and win without heavy casualties, then I did something wrong somewhere else, not with the attacks, which aren’t even strafes at this point.
