I have a somewhat related question, and this seems as good a place as any to ask it.

If you originally declare a mixed overland and amphibious attack with your combat move, are the overland troops still committed to the death if the amphibious troops never make it to battle - either because you withdrew from the sea battle or the transport(s) sank?

1. I’m pretty sure you can either do either a traditional retreat or use a submerge with attacking subs.  The big advantage is that you can use it on defense as well.

The advantage of submerging is that the sub can get out of a battle it doesn’t want to fight and can live to see another day.  The benefits of this are twofold - (1) on attack it lets you occupy the seazone (along with the defender) into the next turn so that the other side must respond to it on the combat move of their turn.  I also believe this blocks them from loading transports in that zone because it is now contested.  (2) Perhaps most importantly, you can also submerge on defense, so if you survive the first round of battle you keep that sub around until your turn so you can either move it to safety, use it on attack somewhere else, or bring in help from other places in a counterattack.  This is important when unguarded subs are attacked by planes.  The subs can’t fire back but they can submerge if they survive 1 round of attack.

2&3) AA guns and Battleship bombardment only happen on opening fire of the first round of battle, then they are returned to the game board.  Because subs are not returned to the board (unless they submerge), they continue to get opening round shots during every round of battle.

Don’t worry about your english.  You seem to do at least as well as some of us native speakers. ;)

Interesting - I just tried something similar in a game with peruri only to see almost the exact same thing posted on CS for all the world to see.  Never tried it before but as the paper said, I liked the fact that it at least seems to put a lot of early pressure on the british fleet and airforce and has the potential to put a fair number of their units at risk.  Not sure how it will turn out but it seemed worth a shot.  Unfortunately I didn’t buy the (apparently) all-important 2nd bomber. :(

@andrewhollinger:

Thanks for all the help. It’s really helped out.

I’m still a little confused about my first question.

Is this scenario legal:

I’m Germany. I’ve purchased my units. Now my combat move. I decide to attack a UK territory. I roll the dice and we battle. (Whether I win or not is irrelevant.)

Now I’m stoked. I attack Russia now, for the victory city of Leningrad. We go through dice rolls. I may win or not.

NOW I move on to my non-combat moves, mobilization, etc.

===

Is it legal for Germany to attack TWO DIFFERENT territories in ONE turn?

I do understand that I can “Press Attack” or “Retreat” in a single battle. But can I skirmish more than once in a turn? Just curious.

Thanks.

Andrew

You can attack many territories, but not in the way you describe.  You must conduct ALL your combat moves at once, before beginning to perform any of the actual battles.  If you’re Germany on turn 1, you will often see players counter-attack the russians in karelia and either belorussia or Ukraine, they will hit the british BB in the western Med, the destroyer in the eastern med, and at the same time make an amphibious assault on Egypt with troops from southern Europe joining the ones from Libya and a plane or two (and in answer to your question, even if only one unit in the original assault comes in on an amphib landing, all ground troops are committed to fight without retreat, even if most of them came in overland.  Planes, however, can disengage after the first round of combat if you wish.)

The trick is, you have to commit to ALL of these combat moves before you start ANY of the battles.  You can’t do one and see how your doing before deciding whether to move into other territories.

There is still value at times in carefully choosing the order you conduct your battles as results in one may make you more or less likely to retreat in another territory, but you must commit to at least one round of battle in all those territories.

@Jermofoot:

@dezrtfish:

I wonder how long I could pull that one off, I wouldn’t mind being glued to my bed for a day or two…

With the right company?  :evil:

Glue… handcuffs… whatever.  Who needs school?  With the right teacher I’m sure there’s plenty that can be learned attached to one’s bedrails. :-o

@AgentOrange:

Okay, I’ve asked this before, but some of you guys are relatively new here, so I’ll ask it again!

Imagine a game where the teams are Germany and Russia vs Everyone else.  No alterations to the standard set-up, no bids, just leave the board the way it is.  Britain gets Colonial Garrison.  Where should they put it?

Given the economic advantage the 3 naval powers have, why on earth does the UK also get colonial garrison?

@balungaloaf:

but he’s not insane in that movie.

That just goes to show how good of an actor he really is! :|

If the US/UK were making that much headway in Europe, and Germany and japan were unable to bother russia to the point he could save money for a big fleet purchase, wouldn’t those ipcs have cleared a path to rome/berlin even quicker and in more force if they were spent on infs and armor instead of a bunch of boats??  Sounds like the game was already in hand for the allies and russia was just playing around.

@ncscswitch:

Battleships may ONLY fire 1 support shot (per BB) in the opening fore step of the first round of ground combat IF:
1.  It did not engage in naval combat the same turn
2.  If you are also offloading units from a Transport (or a DST if Japan has Tokyo Express NA).

Just to clarify…the Battleship must be in the same sea zone as an offloading transport.  It is not enough to just be in another sea zone adjacent to the same land territory where units are offloading.

@DarthMaximus:

Well your trying something may effect my trying something such that I may have to try something different depending on what you are trying.  Unless what you are trying doesn’t effect what I was going to try so then I will be safe to try whatever I want.  :-D

[yoda]
Do, or Do not.  There is no try.
[/yoda]

Axis_roll is correct.  To quote from LHTR 2.0:

Any number of attacking submarines may withdraw by submerging. They may do so after Step 6
in any cycle of combat. If they submerge, other attacking air and sea units are not required to
withdraw at the same time. Submarines may not submerge if opposing destroyers are still on the
battle board

Emphasis added to show that the DDs must be part of the battle itself (“on the battle board”) not just sitting there, admiring the glow of the battle from the other side of the sea zone.

By the way, I want to thank everyone who has been contributing to this discussion.  It’s gotten even more input than I had hoped for when I started it.  I’ve really learned a lot (and realized there’s a whole lot more I need to learn) from everyone’s contributions. :thumbsup:

Jennifer,  I’ve been trying to follow your arguments and for the most part I thought I understood where you were coming from on this subject, but now I’m confused.  Let me sample some of your comments so far…

@Cmdr:

My pearl lights are generally 4 fighters, bomber, destroyer, submarine.

My pearl heavies are generally, 2 fighters, bomber, destroyer, submarine, battleship, carrier.

@Cmdr:

Why risk a battleship when you don’t have too?

@Cmdr:

Wow, so now I have to lose a Bomber in Pearl Heavy….all the more reason NOT to go Pearl Heavy. :P

OK, so I was mostly following your reasoning up to here.  I didn’t quite follow the “allows you to blitz faster” argument since 2 figs in sz52 and 4 on land seems like a quicker blitz than 2 figs on land and 2 in sz51  and 2 on wake, but If you were comparing to “super heavy”, I could almost see your point because the 2 figs in sz51 would be closer than 2 in sz52, although the only additional asian territories they can attack J2 are Manchuria and Kwang (but if you’ve got bogeys there on J2 you probably have bigger issues).  I guess the main difference is would be that you can land in FIC or china if you want to provide airsupport, but for this argument to hold up, it assumes you’re sending 4 figs in each case.  If you only send 2 figs on Pearl heavy, those figs can already be in FIC on J1.  But that didn’t seem like a real important aspect.  I still figured you were a proponent of Pearl Light (unless you suspect KJF), and I could understand that.

But with this next comment, you’ve completely lost me.

@Cmdr:

I like to have 4 fighters in China.  Those damn Chinese dig really good bunkers, hard to root them out, don’t want to give them 5 rounds to pick my officers off one at a time!

You’ve just spent the whole of this thead arguing for Pearl Light (which you say is 4 figs) over Pearl Heavy (which you say uses 2 figs), but now you’re saying you like to send 4 figs to China as well.  So which is it?  I assume you’re not winning bids of 20 and giving japan 2 extra figs.

Are you saying you like to send 4 to china, but usually don’t because they’re in pearl?  Are you suggesting the potential risk of a counter in pearl is greater than the  risk of getting dice fracked in china or wanting those figs on J2 for somewhere like FIC, India or Sinkiang?  I guess  I’m missing some subtleties here.

@ncscswitch:

Just to add this in…

Pearl Ultra-Light:
Only the SUB (if it lives in SZ45) and the DST for surface ships to SZ52; plus 3 FIGs, and 1 BOM.
AC moves to Wake SZ to recover FIGs if needed, excess FIG to Wake Island.

Does not work well if the UK has a SUB alive in SZ45, and is very dangerous to Japan’s remaining ships if the DST does not survive the battle.

Just so I understand, the DD is to protect against the US boats moving up, but the UK Sub (if it survived) would still get a pot shot at the japan carrier in this situation, right?

@Cmdr:

Pearl Light allows you to move faster with Japan into Russia because your fighters don’t have to return from the Pacific first.  They never go to the Pacific.  That’s a two round advance on your fighters.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding pearl light… doesn’t that mean sending mostly planes and landing them on a carrier @ wake or on wake itself.    That’s kinda what I thought when I started this thread and it seemed to be confirmed by some of the other comments.  If you’re sending 3-4 figs to pearl, how is that not the pacific?

@Cmdr:

Noobs should ALWAYS go “Pearl Heavy.”  Actually, I’d say “Pearl Super Heavy” which is 4 fighters and bomber plus all the surface warships that can reach.

Veterans can go Pearl Heavy if they think KJF is coming or Pearl Light if they want to blitz Russia faster.  Up to the individual player.

I’m very curious why you think there should be a difference with n00bs and vets. Why would a newbie need to go super heavy?  I’ve never seen anyone send that much equipment (or is this just a ploy to get people like me to do something foolish, since I fall squarely into that n00b category)  This seems a little too rigid considering all the possibilities of what the UK might have done.

Also, how do you send 4 figs and a bomber if there’s a good chance of a couple menacing boats in sz59 threatening your transports (perhaps with UK bomber coverage as well)?  I figure 2 planes are in China, that leaves you nothing to deal with any other possible threats.  The E.Indies boats alone make for a very shaky attack on a destroyer and CV (even worse if stacked with the trn as well).  They’re heavily favored to win, but you stand a very good chance to lose at least one, if not 2 capital ships.  That doesn’t even address the possibilities of whether there’s a sub in sz45, a stack in bury, or what you might want to do with those fighters on J2.  Sending 5 planes on a tour of hawaii seems like overkill, and would ultimately hurt you elsewhere.

Also, I’m curious how pearl light helps you blitz faster. How are you using the fleet to accomplish this?  Doesn’t that pull MORE planes out of range for turn 2?  Maybe I’m just not seeing the options on the board correctly.

Thanks everyone for the input so far!

I’m trying to understand what people use to attack pearl on J1 and how do you decide when to take each approach.

The way I understand it Pearl Heavy would be sz60 BB; sz45 sub (if alive); sz50 DD, CV, & Fig; Japan bomber and another fig.

What exactly do people mean when they say “pearl light”?

And the real reason I’m asking is how do you decide which approach to take (or when to go somewhere in between)?  What circumstances would lead you one way vs. the other and what are you trying to achieve?  Are you still trying to clear sz52 with light or is it meant to be more of a strafe?  How much does it depend on what was done in the pacific on UK1? And finally, when do you pass up pearl altogether?  Does passing it up really make KJF more viable for the allies or does it usually just mean one more US fig and a couple more boats in the atlantic around turn 4?

I know it’s a lot of questions, but this is an area that people seem to have some “standard” options in mind but as a new player they’re difficult to find because they’re scattered in a lot of other discussions.  I just thought it would be helpful for people like me to see a discussion of it in one place.

(Oh, and by the way, please assume ADS only, and ADS v. LL is not relevant to this conversation ;) )

making sure I’ve got the syntax still…
aaa 3@1 2@2 1@3
Rolls: 3@1 2@2 1@3; Total Hits: 13@1: (1, 4, 4)2@2: (4, 6)1@3: (5)

aaa 5@1 2@2 3@3
Rolls: 5@1 2@2 3@3; Total Hits: 35@1: (5, 1, 5, 4, 5)2@2: (6, 5)3@3: (3, 6, 1)

I have seen (all of) these problems recently as well.

Note: I’m still on XP so Vista does not appear to be the root cause.  I’m not sure how to tell if anyone has worked on or created a patch for the “patched” version that works on the forums.

I sent a pm to rjclayton a few days ago when this first started happening for us, informing him of the error.  He seemed to be one of the folks most closely associated with TripleA based on some of his posts.  I don’t know if he was the right person or not, but I haven’t heard anything back.

I do have to agree, working the summary manually has been pretty easy, but I think there’s a bit more controls in place if it’s all done in one step.  Not an issue for your average game, but if things get crazy competitive it’s something that might be nice to have for game admins/judges.