Topics created by The Janus

@The-Janus indeed hurting the luftwaffe is a plus but not if it costs you way too much. Keeping your fighters with UK and alive in the Med then they can go to moscow fast.

@The-Janus

That’s the thing-I don’t think national objectives imbalance the game, especially in the Europe version where the Soviets are almost guaranteed to get 9 IPCs a turn after going to war.

2025-8-5-World-War-II-Europe-1940-2nd-Edition.tsvg

As you can see, the Germans still took Moscow on turn 6 and on their way to Egypt (Italy’s looking in pretty good shape too).

I haven’t been active here for several years, mostly due to circumstances in my life. I’m only passionate when I’m actively involved in the scene, to which I can’t be for the time being. You’re ping here made me log in for the first tie in years lol. Perhaps sometime in the future I’ll become active again.

I’m not based in Grande Prairie anymore. I’m now in Cold Lake, AB.

This is actually game #14 of East & West (between myself and @The_Good_Captain) dating back to December of 2021.

Below is my recap of the game, up to the end of round 4; a friend had asked for something of a deep-dive on the NATO strat, and how the game state had gotten to where it was, so there is a lot more detail given to that (also, because the NATO perspective is my perspective, obviously.)
For those unfamiliar, in this game NATO consists of 3 powers: Western Europe (WE), British Empire & Commonwealth (UK), and the United States (US).

This is the 2nd game which TGC has edited together YouTube videos for; you can check those out here:

Soviet opening
NATO turn 1 recap; Soviet turn 2
NATO turn 2 recap; Soviet turn 3
NATO turn 3 recap; Soviet turn 4

Also, check out his channel for videos of our previous game, plus other games – including multiple 1914 playthroughs.

Rounds 1-4 recap

Atlantic

Rd1:
Soviets sent all subs + 1 fighter against the North Sea; the SZ was cleared without loss, but this meant the subs were stranded without any surface ships for AA cover.

On the counterattack, UK’s fleet + 1 bomber wiped out the surface fleet without loss, while the remainder of their air force attacked the subs, scoring 2 hits. Because WE had moved a transport into the Irish SZ (shipping the lone infantry from Portugal to France) the remaining Soviet sub could only submerge, or retreat to the Batlic; it opted to do the latter.

The US moved their sub (from Iceland) into the North Sea to keep the other sub penned in, and prevent it from being used in concert with any air power against the main NATO fleets.
UK places 2 transports in Ontario; US places 3 transports off the East Coast.

Rd2:
Soviets sent their sub after the Americans’ but opted to retreat back after one round of fire, with neither side scoring a hit. US fighters based in France were able to sink the sub.

Overall losses: USSR: 3 subs, 1 transport, 1 cruiser US: 2 transports, 1 cruiser Pacific

Rd1:
The Soviets did the standard “Tokyo Drift” setup. US opted to salvage their sub from the Japan SZ, with the Soviets losing 1 sub and retreating the other to Marcus Island SZ; the US sub at Guam also survived, and retreated to Okinawa SZ to join the other retreating US sub.

Both US subs, both US bombers, and 1 fighter were sent to clear Japan SZ; a cruiser and fighter from the West Coast + the sub at Hawaii were sent to clear Guam SZ. Only 1 sub was lost (in the Japan SZ battle.) US navies grouped up around Guam and Hawaii.

Rd2:
Soviet fighters were sent to sink the lone sub in the Japan SZ; they missed, and the sub opted to submerge in place. This kept the sea lane open for the US transports, for a possible landing in Korea.

The US bombers (which had landed in Japan) were sent against the remaining sub at Marcus Island, along with 1 fighter. The sub was sunk, with 1 bomber moving to Panama and the other moving to the Eastern US to rendezvous with the nuke. A token force was left in the Pacific, with a transport depositing the armor (originally from Okinawa) at the Western US; all other naval assets were moved towards the Panama canal.

Overall losses: USSR: 2 subs, 2 transports, 2 cruisers US: 1 sub, 1 cruiser, 1 battleship Africa / Middle East / Central Asia

Rd1:
Soviets do the standard Turkey attack, with only 2 attacking infantry surviving.

WE sends infantry in Africa eastward; armor from Italy is transported to Sudan. The fighter from Indochina lands in Pakistan, along with 2 infantry via transport; the remaining infantry walks forward to Burma. French paratrooper lands in Pakistan. Fighter from France lands on the UK carrier; entire WE and UK Mediterranean fleets are moved to the Red Sea. UK fighter from the Mediterranean goes to Pakistan. WE places infantry in Madagascar and Mozambique.

Cruiser from South Africa moves north, into the Atlantic; infantry move to Mozambique, armor moves to Congo. UK pushes everything forward, from India into Pakistan. All Australian assets are moved to India; Burma’s infantry moves to Indochina to protect from paratroopers based in Siberia. Indian navy moved to Persian Gulf.

Rd2:
Soviets invade Iran with everything from Turkey, Georgia, and Turkmenistan. Soviets move more tanks into Georgia.

WE does no combat this round. Infantry are again moved east, into Sudan; the tank from Sudan is transported to Pakistan, while the 2 infantry placed last round in Africa are also transported to Pakistan. The 2nd WE fighter lands in Pakistan, and their remaining armor is moved from France to Algeria. The bomber moves to New Guinea. WE places in Indochina and Africa.

UK attacks Turkmenistan (1 inf, 1 arm, 2 ftr vs. 1 inf) and captures the territory without loss; all attacking equipment is moved back to Pakistan. Indian units move to Pakistan, Burma infantry to India; the infantry and armor originally from South Africa are transported to Pakistan. Transport at India moves back to Australia; UK subs rally in the Red Sea, carrier moves to Persian Gulf. Paratroopers from Italy are landed in Pakistan.

Rd3:
Soviets counterattack Turkmenistan, pulling their fighters from the far east to do so. They rally their forces in Iran.

WE uses their armor to attack Turkmenistan, and their fighters + cruiser to attack Turkey, losing only 1 infantry in the Turkmenistan battle. Armor in Algeria moves to Sudan. Bomber brings paratrooper from New Guinea to Pakistan. Infantry from Madagascar and Mozambique are again transported in, as well as the 2 infantry that arrived in Sudan last turn.

UK uses paratroopers and fighters from Pakistan to attack Georgia, capturing the territory with only 1 loss. Transports ship infantry from Australia, Ceylon, and Singapore onto the mainland.

Rd4:
Soviets are forced to pull infantry from Romania for an amphibious assault into Turkey. They also counterattack Georgia and Turkmenistan, recapturing all 3 territories at a loss of only 1 infantry. Iran is heavily reinforced, with additional fighters, as well as a heavy armor and bomber.

WE attacks Turkmenistan and Turkey again, but fares much worse in both attacks this time, losing 4 infantry in total but still managing to capture both territories. The French armor finally reaches Pakistan, while the bomber is sent back to Europe. Infantry are placed in Indochina, Madagascar, and Mozambique again.

UK sends 1 infantry to cover the empty Turkmenistan, but otherwise reinforces into Pakistan.

Overall losses: USSR: 17 inf WE: 14 inf, 1 arm, 1 ftr UK: 3 inf Neutral: 2 inf, 1 arm, 1 ftr Europe + Mediterranean

Rd1:
Soviets do the standard attacks; only 5 infantry remaining in West Germany, 1 in Greece, but all 5 in Norway. Soviets rally in Poland and Romania, as is customary.

WE trades an infantry with the Soviets, over Yugoslavia; the Americans move 1 more infantry in to reinforce. Infantry are placed in France. UK forces move from France to Italy.

Rd2:
Soviets invade Finland (without loss) and counterattack Yugoslavia.
WE infantry are moved from France into Italy, to oppose the new stack in Yugoslavia.

British marines from Canada land in Komi (unopposed) and Norway (w/ naval bombardment). Infantry from Gibraltar and Algeria are landed in France.

US activates the classic shuck-shuck; the US Mediterranean transport arrives in the Irish SZ.

Rd3:
Soviets invade Sweden and Switzerland, losing 3 infantry in each battle; also counterattack Norway and Komi. Soviet forces marshal in Ukraine.

Italians perform the now-infamous bayonet charge into Yugoslavia; 3 infantry killed, taking no losses. UK mops up the remaining infantry in the territory, while also exchanging infantry in West Germany (w/ naval bombardment). South African cruiser reaches the Mediterranean.

Spain joins the war, on the side of the US.
US forces in Italy and France (bolstered by Spanish units) combine to strafe the Soviet stack in Switzerland, regrouping in France; US drops the nuke on West Germany, immobilizing 2 fighters in addition to killing 5 infantry. Arab Outrage leads to the Suez Canal being closed to NATO. US bomber arrives in France from Panama, with 1 paratrooper.

Rd4:
Soviets re-secure Yugoslavia. Soviet forces are consolidated in West Germany and Finland.

WE uses their bomber to help retake Yugoslavia once again.

British armor helps to liberate Switzerland, while the British Mediterranean fleet wipes out the Soviet Black Sea fleet. Royal marines capture an only lightly-guarded Karelia.

US air and airborne forces liberate Norway, against minimal opposition. US marines capture Komi (w/ naval bombardment). Final US transport from the Pacific reaches the East Coast, as the shuck-shuck intensifies.

Overall losses: USSR: 54 inf, 1 trn, 1 sub, 1 crz WE: 12 inf, 2 arm, 1 ftr UK: 6 inf, 1 arm, 1 ftr, 1 sub US: 13 inf, 2 arm, 1 ftr, 1 bmb Neutral: 9 inf, 1 arm, 2 ftr

Active Nations:

USSR: 45 IPCs
Would include all starting USSR territories, plus the following:
Germany, Poland, Slovakia Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Albania

Western Europe (WE) : 23 IPCs

Portugal, Portuguese Guinea, Angola, Mozambique Holland Belgium, Suriname, Belgian Congo Greenland, Iceland, Denmark, Norway Northern Italy, Southern Italy, Sicily, Sardinia Turkey, Greece, Crete

So in E&W, a bit ahistorically (as the game is set in 1948) Greece and Turkey are part of WE, despite not joining NATO until 1952. For now I’m lumping them in here, but my other preference would be to have them as strict neutrals – more on that later.

Also in E&W, Greenland and Iceland are treated as US territories; since both are worth 0 IPCs on the Europe 1940 map, the only real important distinction is whether they are hostile or friendly, so I wanted to include them under WE instead.

UK: 31 IPCs
gains the following territories:
Italian Somaliland, Tobruk, Libya, Western Germany

UK loses Trans-Jordan, Egypt, Alexandria to the Arab League UK loses Iceland to WE

US: 38 IPCs
gains the following territories:
Greater Southern Germany

US loses Southeast Mexico to the OAS US loses Greenland to WE

Neutral Powers:

France (pro-NATO) : 16 IPCs

France loses Syria to the Arab League

What I’m proposing for France would be sort of a hybrid rule between the activation rules for pro-neutrals, and a house rule I proposed for China, in E&W.

Essentially how this works is that France would contribute income to WE, based on the IPC value of French territories containing NATO troops (WE, UK, or US) at the end of Western Europe’s turn. If France is attacked by the USSR, all French units and territories would convert to WE ownership.

The reason for doing this is primarily to keep France as part of NATO, without making WE so huge economically that they don’t need any help. Also, by weakening NATO a little bit in this way, I’m hoping to avoid needing to use the E&W rule whereby USSR gets infantry for 2 IPCs instead of 3 IPCs.

Organization of American States (OAS) : 9 IPCs
(Essentially, all of the neutral South American countries except Suriname, plus Southeast Mexico)
If the OAS is attacked by the USSR, all OAS units and territories would convert to US ownership.

Arab League: 8 IPCs
(Alexandria, Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia)
If the Arab League is attacked by the USSR, all Arab units and territories would convert to UK ownership.

…
So, in addition to possibly including a diplomacy mechanism similar to classic E&W, I was wanting to incorporate one of the house rules I had suggested for E&W and apply it to this scenario:

All remaining neutrals are considered “strict neutrals”
However:

The USSR may attack any neutral at any time. If the USSR attacks a strict neutral, rather than having ALL strict neutrals side with NATO (as in classic Europe 1940) instead NATO gets to shift either the OAS or Arab League one step on the diplomacy scale.

Now, if Greece and Turkey are kept as strict neutrals, rather than being part of WE, this rule could potentially have large consequences if/when the USSR chooses to attack them.

I was thinking instead of the classic E&W diplomacy scale, it’d make more sense to have it like -8/-6/-4/-2/0/+2/+4/+6/+8

Strict Neutrals:
Probably a good “hard and fast” rule would be that if attacked by the USSR, strict neutrals in Europe would join WE, while strict neutrals in Africa or the middle east would join UK; Rio De Oro would be considered part of Spain, for these purposes. If Turkey is neutral…? I’d probably consider them part of the middle east.

Europe: Eire, Spain / Rio De Oro, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland Africa: Sierra Leone, Liberia, Ethiopia Middle East: Northwest Persia, Persia, Eastern Persia, Afghanistan

What this all means:

Starting Income:
USSR: 45
NATO: 92

Maximum potential income, including neutrals:
USSR (plus Arab League, OAS*, and all strict neutrals) : 71
WE (plus France, and all strict neutrals in Europe) : 46
UK (plus Arab League, and all strict neutrals in Africa + Middle East) : 42
US (plus OAS*) : 46

*Assumes OAS income is capped at 8 rather than 9

@RogerCooper said in "East & West" by Imp Games - Discussion:

@The_Good_Captain said in "East & West" by Imp Games - Discussion:

@RogerCooper

@The-Janus yikes…I can’t tell.

I will extend the boundary for the sea zone to the East to Mexico.

Agree

@barnee re: testing

Since the Axis each have a starting income that is divisible by 3, originally I had the mechanics for merging theatres as a function of the Axis country either increasing their income by 2/3rds more than their starting income, or decreasing it by 1/3rd less than their starting income. (Which sort of dovetails into the “2 out of 3” rule for Victory Cities.)

This effectively worked out to:
Germany: +14/-7
Italy: +8/-4
Japan: +10/-5

Changing it to a uniform +10/-5 made the math a little bit more intuitive, but it also means the USSR doesn’t have to get beat up so much (down half their income, possibly even losing their capitol) before the US/UK are able to jump in and help.

In terms of territorial gains/losses, this typically works out like…
+10 Germany = Karelia, Ukraine, Caucasus, Persia
-5 Germany = Finland/Norway, Eastern Europe

+10 Italy = all of Africa, plus Brazil or Eastern Canada
-5 Italy = all of Africa (except for one territory), or losing Southern Europe

+10 Japan = all Chinese territories, plus India or Philippines
-5 Japan = Indochina/Burma, Manchuria

So, Italy probably has the toughest time (as one might expect) but none of these scenarios are completely out of the realm of possibility.

Not location-specific, but I’m just hoping to get in touch with anyone who owns or has play-experience with this game. I own a copy myself, and am just looking for anyone knowledgeable, who would like to discuss strategies for the game – and possibly play in some electronic format or another. :)

The official site has long since gone offline, but a bit of info still exists here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/6441/east-west-global-war-1948

Anyone familiar with/wanting to play this game?
http://www.impgames.com/EWinfo.html

Are there any gamers on this forum who play any sort of roleplaying games?
I’m big into 4th Edition D&D, but I’ve also been working on designing my own original game system that I would love to test out, if I can find some interested players.

NATO Counter-offensive

So what would be the strategy for NATO, in the scenario of southeast Asia falling to the USSR?

Well, one method I have found successful in the past is for the UK to move their transports from around India all the way up to Western Canada. With the factory in Ontario, you can be consistently producing 4 infantry to send over to Kamchatka; essentially UK forces in the Siberian theatre just serve to absorb hits from Soviet counter-attacks, meaning the main NATO attack (US forces) remains strong and intact, and can continue to push.

Generally the US needs to hold all the territory in the area (North Korea, South Korea, Kamchatka, East Siberia) in order to have the income to sustain this land-grab; if they gain the Heavy Armor tech, it makes this easier – by building heavy tanks from the factory in East Siberia; their extra movement lets you do a “2 steps forward, 1 step back” move from a fortified position in East Siberia, into the territories bordering West Siberia. The UK can potentially snipe a few territories in this same manner, but the US really needs that extra income more; generally the Heavy Armor tech helps the UK more by allowing them to do “2 steps forward, 1 step back” from a factory built in India, through Pakistan, and into Turkmenistan.

The other place that NATO should look for openings is Turkey or Greece. Typically the US naval units from the Mediterranean will move to the Atlantic, but the WE and UK ships may stick around, if they aren’t destroyed by the Soviets. The US would have to extend themselves pretty far in order to be of any help in this theatre, so it’s best left to the WE and UK allies – assuming that US forces alone are strong enough to hold France, and that using NATO forces in the Mediterranean doesn’t compromise Italy in the process.

Soviet strategy

I think the biggest threat that this Soviet strategy presents, is that it forces NATO to choose between defending India, and attacking Siberia – and may still cause them to lose on both fronts. The presence of Soviet air power in China means that the US cannot leave their transports in the Pacific undefended, forcing the US fleet to make some hard choices:
1. sit off the coast of East Siberia, and watch the rest of Asia fall;
2. split, trying to defend the sea zone around Indochina as well as either the sea zone around Japan or off East Siberia, while trying to move infantry to both theatres every round, or;
3. try to keep all your transports covered, while moving infantry from the Philippines to Indochina every round, and from Japan to Indochina every other round.

Now, if China stops giving aid to the USSR, then this strategy is completely shut down. However, I would argue that this is the always case in this game, regardless of the particular strategy used – and in particular, when the US is prepared to attack heavily into Asia. In this game, the result of the nuclear attack was a Global Outrage, which helped cement China’s alliance with the Soviets; it should be noted that “Chinese Outrage” is also statistically more likely than outraging either of the other 2 neutral alliances, so all in all, the Soviets really need only to fear NATO spies swaying China away – until the Soviets start slinging nukes of their own.  :wink:

In terms of technology, the most pivotal advancement for the USSR is to get ballistic missiles. Fusion weapons are nice to have, but not entirely necessary. With the placement of Soviet factories and AA guns as they are, ballistic missiles can easily threaten any place where NATO would be expected to mass their navies – effectively shutting down the shuck-shuck almost permanently, via nuclear deterrence. By contrast, amassing snorkel submarines is too costly, and self-propelled artillery (to win the land war) can take a long time to acquire – and anti-tank guns can prove devastating against them. Long-range aircraft can help expand the umbrella of a Soviet nuclear threat, but generally games will be over before helicopters come into play; they can be helpful for quickly spreading into an undefended Africa, if you for some reason don’t go the tried-and-tested route of treading over the Arab League, to get there.

Here’s a little “mini-game” I developed years ago, so I figured I would post it here. It plays pretty well in my experience. Let me know your results if you decide to play it. Also, feel free to ask me about anything you need clarification on.

It is based off of E&W, but as the title suggests, you can use Imp Games’ East & West map or Xeno Games’ World at War; the territories, IPC values, and SZs used in the game are identical on both maps, you just need to swap ownership.

Enjoy!
Jihad.JPG
Jihad.doc

Here is the latest revision (yet to be tested) of my house rule set for E&W.
If anyone is familiar with the game and would like to test it, any feedback would be appreciated.
New to east & west? Check the Imp Games website, or ask me here on in a PM! :-)

=====

Round Zero

Breakthroughs:
Diplomacy -> shift China 1 step toward the USSR, or shift the other Neutral Alliances any combination of 2 steps towards the USSR
Technology -> USSR gains 2 full-steps at Submarines, or a total of 2 half-steps at any other technology trees
Counter-Intelligence -> the USSR may make 1 free attempt, which carries over to Round 1 if successful

Purchase Units: (choose one of the following options)
a) Spend up to 48 IPCs on naval units only. Any remaining IPCs cannot be saved for use in later rounds.
b) Save 24 IPCs

Combat Movement: (choose one of the following options)
a) Conduct combat movement using infantry, armor, and heavy armor only
b) Conduct combat movement using aircraft and naval units only

Resolve Combat:
The attack value of all aircraft and naval units is increased by 2, for Round Zero combat only.

Non-Combat Movement:
You may not move infantry, armor, or heavy armor in this phase.

Place Units:
Your Industrial Complexes can each produce 2 additional units, on Round Zero only.

Collect Income:
The USSR collects 48 IPCs at the end of Round Zero.

Breakthroughs

This phase replaces the Spying and Technology phases of the turn.
Each country can make a number of free Breakthrough rolls per turn, as follows:
• USSR: 3
• WE: 1
• UK: 1
• USA: 2

Each country may also purchase a number of additional Breakthrough rolls up to double their number of free attempts, each round on the Breakthrough phase of their turn. Free Breakthroughs may be rolled before deciding to purchase additional Breakthroughs; you may also purchase and then roll extra Breakthroughs one at a time, up to your country’s maximum. Each additional breakthrough roll costs the same number of IPCs as an infantry; 2 for the USSR or 3 for NATO countries.

On a Breakthrough roll of 1, you may choose to gain either a Diplomatic Breakthrough with a Neutral Alliance, or a full-step in any technology tree. On a Breakthrough roll of 2, you may choose to gain either a Diplomatic Breakthrough with a Minor Neutral, or a half-step in any technology tree. You cannot gain more than one full-step in each technology tree on a single Breakthrough phase; Neutral Alliances can be influenced a maximum 1 step on each Breakthrough phase.

Faction-specific Breakthrough Rules:
The USSR may make 1 free Counter-Intelligence roll during their Breakthrough phase; a roll of 1 or 2 foils a NATO Breakthrough roll of 1 or 2 (respectively) on that round only. The USSR may choose which Breakthrough roll to affect with their Counter-Intelligence roll, however successful rolls do not carry over to later rounds if saved and not used. The USSR may purchase up to 2 additional Counter-Intelligence rolls on their Breakthrough phase, for 2 IPCs each.

When a NATO country uses a Breakthrough roll of 1 to gain a technology, they may choose to grant any other NATO countries (who are at the same point or lower down on that technology tree) a free half-step in that tree.

Optional Rules:
• NATO countries cannot gain the benefit of shared advancement in the Nuclear Weapons technology tree.
• The USSR may influence China using a Breakthrough roll of 2.

@The-Janus said in Playable Nations in 1914:

defensive

Actually The King of Greece was married to the Kaiser’s sister and was more inclined to support the central powers. It was only due to a allied supported civil war that pushed Greece over to the Allies.

Hey! Just bumping this up