Posts made by Spendo02

Move seemed to work well enough, I ran it through today.

Germany had 8 Inf, 6 Art, 6 Tanks stranded on London - too much for a US4 Liberation Attempt.

The Russia front was still up for grabs, neither side had the advantage and Germany had 80 or so IPC to spend on G4.  Russia made its move on R3 into Poland to force Germany to deal with it before it could mass both the Southern and Northern contingents (one ended R3 in Eastern Poland, the other in Poland).

However, with the entirety of the French territories emptied, Italy moved 9 Inf into France and made it less… tasteful for the US to land in Normandy facing 9 Italian Inf versus the US 3 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Mech, 1 Tank.

Germany appeared able to put 10 units on both German IC’s and had the majority of its Air Force able to fly over those units to keep pushing the Russians back.

I also made sure to do the US3 purchase of subs in the pacific, so the US had no units to reinforce an AA landing in Europe for at least 3 more turns unless it was able to take and hold Normandy.

I’m not sure where to go with the US mini-invasion force at this point, however if the UK was able to do “better” on London it appeared possible for the US to take London as it had 3 StratB’s, 2 Ftr/TacB, and its AA units to try for a London recapture.  I suppose if G4 doesn’t include and blockers in SZ112, the US could land its units on Norway for a potential IC build there too.

I haven’t decided if its worth it for the UK to NOT buy those subs on UK2 (I was able to get 4 of them and a DD) and instead spend those IPC on Inf.  My supposition is that its a trade-off between the US losing more aircraft taking out the German Flotilla or having more AC for a London Liberation.  Note with the UK having 4 subs, 1 StratB, 2 Ftr and Moscow sending in 4 Subs, the German flotilla was left with both the AC and BB crippled before the US even flew its its aircraft.  Germany started with 1 AC, 2 Ftr, 1 BB, 3 DD and 12 Trn.

It appeared the R1 purchase of 3 Subs placed in SZ127 and staging 4 Russian subs in SZ125 on R2 was essential to ensuring the US Aircraft only faced one round of combat.  Even though they got only a single hit, which the BB absorbed, UK came through and was able to get 3 rounds of combat taking out 3 DD and putting the AC into a crippled position.

I played Germany sending its ground units and air force against the Russian invasion of Poland because my calculator showed if the Germans went after the fleet, they lost 80% of the time.  I didn’t check what would happen if they went after the 3 StratB’s the US landed in Eire because the Germans needed them to minimize casualties by retaking Poland from the Russians.

That Trn I spoke of in 102 was merely put there for protection as I try to keep my Trn with my fleets in case I miss an opponents ship or aircraft thats in range of a free sinking.

The US still can’t land on UK until a turn later (because your fleets in SZ104 on US3 after sinking the German Fleet).  In that case, I’d just keep it in SZ101.

In regards to Japan, my US3 purchase is going to be 6 Subs.  A lot of the US strategy I suggest relies on Japan going after an India Crush or perhaps changing course seeing the US1 purchase go to the Atlantic.  In either case, the Japanese fleet is an extra turn away from what I have on Hawaii.

Well lets define what G3 moves:

1 AC w/ 2 Ftr
1 BB
1 Cruiser (Assuming it wasn’t lost taking SZ112)
XX Trn

Correct?  Does G2 purchase include any DD?  Potentially 1?
Assuming G1 takes out the fleets in SZ’s 110, 112, 111?
UK fleets in SZ106, SZ109, SZ91 are irrelevant toss ups for this although each surviving one is beneficial to join the US fleet (see later).
UK chooses not to scramble from Scotland.

UK1 does its normal purchase of Inf + Ftr
UK1 takes Eire from Scotland
UK moves its StratB from London to Iceland
UK flys Ftr from Gibraltar to Scotland (you now have 6 Ftr to scramble over what UK2 purchase is)

France1 moves 1 Inf, 1 Ftr to Scotland

US1 purchases 2 AC, 1 TacB, 1 DD - 51 IPC
Land Eastern USA Ftr, TacB (Purchased on 1 AC).
Fly 1 Ftr, 1 TacB off the Pacific AC to the second AC
Fly StratB to Eastern USA

G2 is standard Sealion purchase that may or may not include a DD

UK2 purchases subs to place in SZ109.  More the merrier because you know you’re losing London anyways and you plan to trap its invasion force there anyways.

US2 purchase can be 3 StratB in Eastern US, and whatever else you want (recommend pacific fleet)
US2 stages 2 AC w/ 2 Ftr/TacB, 1 Cru, 1 DD, 1 Trn w/ 1 Art/Inf in SZ102

G3 Sealion lands in either SZ110 or SZ109.  Germany has a multitude of choices at this point.  If it lands the fleet from 110 it won’t be taking Scotland and or Eire this round.  This allows the French Inf to play blocker from the tanks you plan to strand on London.  This protects the US StratB’s and allows them to land on Eire and only face German aircraft on G4.  Germany lands via SZ110 also because it can place 3 DD there that it purchases in G3.

SeaLion commences, London falls.

UK3 sends its subs from SZ109 plus its StratB into SZ110.  Scotland has 2 Ftrs to bring also.  UK can potentially clear the fleet, but even if it doesn’t, US3 is coming right behind it to mop up.

Now lets look at what the UK is probably sending and what Germany has:

Assuming the UK ended UK1 with 27 IPC to spend, it can put 4 subs out on UK2.  Its also flying 2 Ftr from Scotland 1 StratB from Iceland.  Germany, landing in SZ110 probably has 1 AC w/ 2 Ftr, 1 BB, 3-4 DD and maybe a Cruiser depending if it survived.  Looking at worst case scenario (G2 included a DD and the G1 Cruiser lived):

G3 ends its Sealion with:
1 AC
2 Ftr
1 BB
4 DD

UK sends 4 Subs, 1 StratB, 2 Ftr.  Likely you get 2, maybe 3 hits on the fleet, absorbed by the AC and BB (effectively the fleet lost 16 IPC worth of value).  Fleet does not repair.

US3 comes in with 2 Ftr, 2 TacB, 4 StratB.  I took out two DD from my calculator to account for the 2 hits from the UK units (assuming worst case scenario).

Long as the UK attack landed 2 hits, the Germany flotilla only has a 30% chance of surviving the US hit.  If the UK scores 3 hits, its down to a 10% chance to survive.

You land any of the US bombers that survive from Eastern US on Eire, allowing the French Inf in Scotland to play blocker from the stranded ground units in London.  France lands its fighter on Eire or the US AC if it lost aircraft from it.

US flotilla ends up in SZ104, that can join up with any of the surviving UK units that got away from the G1 attack.

Its a multiple pronged attack here.

Moscow can also help augment this attack by buying 3 Subs on R1 and place them in SZ127.  R2 can stage 4 subs in SZ125 which are in position to hit the German fleet in SZ110.

If G3 sealion ends up in SZ109 instead of 110, it is better for the allies because the 3 DD that G3 may place in SZ110 from Normandy.  This makes the fleet a sitting duck and puts the US fleet out of range from German fighters that probably went to Holland and not Normandy.

This is a general outline, and I haven’t played it yet

How detrimental is it to the Germans to lose its Sealion flotilla POST successful sealion?

I see a few avenues to destroy it, but it basically leaves London in German hands for many turns.  Is it worth it to trap those units and remove the TT threat on Leningrad for the Russian advance into Germany?

Germany stands to lose 130 or so IPC in the Atlantic from the move, plus it strands its strength of tanks on an island that requires a re-establishment of sea dominance before it can pump out some TT to move them back which to me smells like at least 3 turns - while Moscow is taking Poland and Romania.

Ya, I guess we both should have specified the spectrum we were looking at things from!

Does your UK opponent NOT take out the DD and Trn in SZ96 on UK1?

What exactly is that fleet up to?

What about the Ftr from Gibraltar, the one on Malta and the TacB on the carrier that starts in SZ98?

US/Russia versus Germany/Italy

-or-

USA/Anzac/UK-India versus Japan

I’d pick the latter.

@Cmdr:

What I’m looking to do is see what the allies are going to do about England falling.  I’m not so worried about what they are doing in the Pacific, as long as they do something in the Pacific to stop Japan from winning (they dont have to do much, but they do have to do something, right?)

Do nothing about London and its darned bridge falling down.  To quote Rocky IV “If he dies, he dies.”

I don’t see the US being very effective in Europe unless it spends 100% of its IPC’s there on US1/US2/US3.  Allow the Japs to hit Hawaii and counter with a US4 purchase of 8-10 subs.  The London Liberation was set in motion turns ago.

Round 3:
London falls
US declares war, stages fleet in SZ106

Round 4:
US fleet blocked in SZ108.  US3 purchases stage in SZ106.  US4 purchases 8-10 subs to chase off Japanese fleet.
Germo-Russian war beings.

Round 5:
US fleet from SZ108 and SZ106 can land on London.  US purchases second round of units for Europe.
Round 2 of Germo-Russian war.

Round 6:
German fleet/aircraft may sink US liberation fleet - HUGE setback
Round 3 of Germo-Russian war.
UK collects income for the first time in 3 rounds
US stages US5 purchases in SZ106.  US purchases another flotilla for Europe.

Round 7:
Germany has had 3 moves against Moscow (G4, G5, G6) and is on 4th move this round.
UK purchases and places first units in 4 rounds.
US lands its US5 flotilla at London/S.France

Basically the German SeaLion eliminates London from the game for ANY relevancy until Round 8 at the EARLIEST.  In other words, its futile for the US to even waste all those resources trying to liberate a fallen London.  That is why I say the US move is to ignore Europe and go straight after Japan.  All those resources could be brought to bear against Japan COMBINED with UK-India and Anzac making the game two things:

Moscow plays defensive the entire game protecting Moscow and Stalingrad from Germany/Italy.
US plays aggressively against Japan the entire game regardless of what Japan does.

This goes on the assumption Japan did NOT stage its fleet in Carolines or Japan and instead moved the majority to SZ36 in preparation for India Crush on J3/J4.

US1

Purchase:
Buy 1 NB (15) - Place Midway
Buy 1 AC (16) - Place SZ10
Buy 2 Trn (14) - Place SZ10
Buy 1 Trn (7) - Place SZ101 or Save the 7 for US2 assuming Japan is bringing the US into war.
52 IPC Spent

NCM:
Move Fleet from SZ10 to Midway (Bring 1 Inf, 1 Art from W.USA)
Move Fleet from SZ26 to Midway (Bring 2 Inf from Honolulu)
Move 1 Inf, 1 Tnk from Central to Western US
Fly 2 Ftrs from Honolulu to Midway
Fly 1 Ftr from Western USA to Midway
Fly 1 StratB from Central US to Midway
Fly 1 Ftr from Philippines to Guam

Collect 52 IPC

Explanation:
NB Explanation:  The NB plays many factors for the US.  First, it allows you to stage your fleet away from Honolulu and still play blocker against Japan trying to take it in a single turn (Caroline Islands have no Trn).  Effectively as long as you have a fleet staged there, Japan will have to either take it out to get to Honolulu or make a two-turn move (via Caroline Islands) to get there uncontested.  The best part is clearly that you can still send your ships from SZ10 there on a single move basically relocating the potential Hawaii battle away from Hawaii.

Further, if J2 puts the US into war, the US can reach Japan from multiple routes, eliminating the single destroyer block move in SZ16 or the surrounding move by Japanese Destroyers in SZs 25, 31 and/or 30.  Best of all, the US can now send sorties into SZ6 against any ships Japan decides to put there. The US can send up to 4 Ftr and 1 SB on US3. This forces Japan to either keep 3 fighters on Japan, send ships home to protect SZ6 unit placements, or purchase ships to protect whatever transports it decides to purchase J2.

The Ftr on Guam is more of a distraction than anything else.  It allows you to send a 5th Ftr against SZ units in SZ6 if Japan puts you at war on US2, it can hit any unprotected Trn along the Chinese coast, it can serve as a distraction for Japan where it has to deal with a potential 3 Ftrs on it with a StratB as early as US3.  Further, if Japan does go after Manila on J2, it still allows the Ftr to survive unless Japan re-directs a Trn that was headed for India Crush to deal with the Ftr.  It can also land in Hong Kong on US2 if Japan decided to not take it and provide another distraction of Trn/Flying units that were headed to deal with the Burma Road or India Crush.

The 4 units on Trn that will land in Midway provide for a few options:  Iwo Jima on US2 (if at war), a Threat (although not very credible yet) on Japan, or a potential to land on Korea, Amur, Caroline Islands or Siberia.

Basically if Japan sends its fleet South to SZ36 on J1, and the US stages in Midway, it forces Japan to turn around and its still a 2 turn move to get to Japan (earliest return to SZ6 for Japan then is J3 unless Japan bought a NB on J1 and placed it at Hainan). If it doesn’t, Japan is facing a fleet sitting off its coast convoy raiding SZ6 every turn. Even better, if Japan does turn around and the US decides NOT to fight the Japanese fleet, it is a single move from W.USA or Hawaii and can leave a blocker at Midway basically allowing the US to further strengthen its Pacific fleet.

This, all, from a US1 purchase.

US2 becomes very hard to project, because you don’t know how Japan is going to react to sorties being able to fly into SZ6.  If its fleet withdraws from SZ36 to SZ19, the US has done its job in the Pacific and can play cat and mouse with Japan in the Pacific the rest of the game.  This allows the US to send the next few turns of purchases straight to the Atlantic or continue its push on Japan depending on how Japan reacts as the J1 purchase is generally what 3 Trn and an Art.  J2 it has 40 something IPC to spend so it can buy 10 Inf for Tokyo, or a few more ships to augment its returning fleet, or if its fighters are out of position (say oh I dunno, Kwangsi for example) 3 fighters to scramble over Japan.  Any of those options buys UK-India time to take the DEI, mass up on Calcutta, or retake the Burma Road while asserting Pacific dominance over Japan (the easier of the Axis targets for the Allies to beat).

Personally I would ignore Europe and keep going after Japan.  A Minor in Alaska with a NB on US2 puts 3 more ships a turn headed straight for SZ6.  Can we say US4 sending 3 more BB to go along with its fleet at Midway or Hawaii?  Thats a pretty big dose of wake-up call for shutting Japan down in a hurry from its India Crush which is all anyone is preaching these days.

It falls straight onto Russia’s lap to not screw up and lose Stalingrad and Leningrad to give the Axis the win.  As Russia has already prepared multiple turns for a potential feign of Sealion, it should have a good base to play defensive on preferably Moscow and Stalingrad.  I wouldn’t play into Germany’s ability to ferry units to Leningrad and allow that to be taken and Stalingrad seems to be the furthest from any axis threat.

If Germany decides to move its units off the UK and go after Russia, the US may have a glimmer of light to Liberate London (Does the major on London downgrade to a minor?).  However, I think this is an effort in futility as even if the US liberates the UK on US3, UK4 just collects income, UK5 it places units and isn’t even relevant for moving units until UK6.  In the time the US got its first wave onto London on US3, US5 is the next time you see any more units come in from the US as its a two-turn move to get the US3 purchases onto Europe.

Personally I’d spend 100% of the US income in Pacific from the get-go and go straight after Japan.  Allies “only” need to take Japan to win the game, yet I’ve never seen a Kill Japan First strategy by the US.  The only issue is where Japan is focused and headed.  From everything I’ve read, its looking at Calcutta licking its chops while owning the DEI and grinding China away.

Assuming Japan goes after Calcutta on J3/J4 the majority of its power should be focused in and around the DEI’s, SZ37, SZ39 etc.  Thats a two turn move to run back to cover Japan.

US3 move (assuming Manila was taken J2) I’d go straight after Iwo Jima and take it.  US4 I’d place an airbase there and land all my fighters/tacb/stratB that aren’t on my carriers.  US5 I’d send the entire kitchen sink after Japan along with as many loaded trn as possible from Hawaii.

It seems the only plausible way to turn the Japanese around that doesn’t ask Russia to hold out from G4 through probably G8 (thats a guess as when Germany could get both Leningrad and Stalingrad).

Don’t let the US into the war until the last possible minute.  The US will collect its income on US3 no matter what, but being able to place 10 units in either theater a turn early is bad mojo for Japan’s sea dominance.

When you make your move, take the Philippines and the DEI.  Combined they allow you to corner Anzac and India UK while maintaining influence and mostly control over the DEI (your lifeblood to compete with the US economically).

Theres an added bonus that by taking the DEI you cut the economies of Anzac and India-UK while adding to yours significantly.  You get that NO, you are seeing +20 IPC for Japan while cutting the allied economies by -15.  Add in taking the Philippines and you -5 IPC USA for its lost NO.  Thats a total IPC swing of 40 IPC for Japan in one move.

You’d be in position to take New Guinea from Anzac on your next move, cutting out 10 more IPC from Anzac for losing two NO’s by losing one territory.  Effectively it puts Anzac down to 10 IPCs a turn again while its already cornered.

I’d not lose the fleet.  No fleet = no influence in the Pacific for Japan.  It also compromises protecting the DEI and if Japan loses the DEI and UK-India is still collecting income, Japan is losing the Pacific.

I’d be willing to fight the good fight if Calcutta was taken and held by Japan.  Setting the US fleet back multiple rounds while I push my prerogative on the mainland means I can take the mainland before the US can mass a fleet to retake the DEI or threaten Japan.

I looked at it, and I really like staging the Japanese fleet at the Philippines.  Lots of advantages and very little lost by Japan to control the DEI’s while cutting out the UK-India IPC income while cornering Anzac and still being in range for any US aggression in the pacific.

Take everything you can and let them try to take it back strategy.  Sounds entertaining!

So basically the solution is to back off after Hawaii to SZ6 or SZ33 and let the subs move forward and then counterattack?

Don’t the economies of the Pacific combined nearly double that of Japan’s once all the powers are brought into the war?  Basically means unless the UK or Anzac are eliminated when the US enters the war, Japan doesn’t have much of a chance.  Thats why I chose allies as the India Crush isn’t a guaranteed win.

Its not so much the economy of the US, because generally when I play Japan I have at least a round or two of 50+ IPC to spend and my fleet is superior to the US fleet provided I keep the fleet combined or able to pounce.  Problem occurs in dealing with 8-10 subs hitting Hawaii and then heading straight for Japan.

It basically forces my fleets to all move to SZ6 to prevent 16-20 die rolls just from subs for 3 to take out Japan’s IPC value and placement of more ships as well.

You just can’t place enough ships in a single round to take out all the subs there, especially with a US fleet sitting on top of it.

I am supposing the only real choice is to hit the stack of US subs when they are on the defensive side and rolling at 1’s instead of 2’s.  That means when they land in Hawaii as that is the gateway to the Pacific for the US.

As an aside, I do have a question regarding SBR and Air Bases:  We had a discussion about if you can SBR the AB to prevent a scramble from that AB in the same turn you SBR in.  We came to the conclusion that you declare all your combat moves, declare scramble then conduct SBR which negates that move.

@Young:

The crazy thing about 109 is, you need to kill the transport, because scramble or no scramble, a lot of those German planes must land in Holland.

My German partner found that out the hard way when UK didn’t scramble, and then flew multiple fighters, a bomber and its remaining ships after the German Carrier with 2 fighters on it (Placed in SZ112).  Boom G1 move a waste and Sealion went kaput.  Still landed all his troops on Scotland and attack UK anyways, but lost (60-40 chance UK would win).

Italy got pwned with bad early rolls and lost its fighters and wasn’t able to remove the UK Trn that stayed in the Med.  Greece was taken the next turn by the UK and Italy was rendered impotent.

So I’ve played as Japan with my playgroup the last 3 times… here is what I have been able to do, and whats crushed me:

Game one was my first Japan play, I did a little bit of everything.  Took out Hawaii on J3 before that extra carrier and fighters showed up.  I couldn’t capture Hawaii because I was sending units into China via ground moves.  Soon as the US was into the war after the Hawaii attack, its first move was to purchase 8 or so Subs in the pacific.  I had to retreat my fleet from Hawaii because you can’t hit the subs with my air power without destroyers present.  Took note of that move.  Japan eventually lost because without taking Hawaii, it was 2 turns to move my fleet to a Naval Base to repair my capital ships.  My fleet in the south was without a naval base and got caught out of position to protect Japan.  Once the US fleet is sitting in SZ6, the Convoy Disruption ended Japan’s game.

Game two I tried a new strategy.  I put a NB on Hainan.  Was able to ferry units onto Kwangsi and hold the Burma road.  Put me in a threatening position for India UK.  Turn 3 I moved my entire fleet from SZ36 to Carolines for a double threat (Anzac or Hawaii).  Turn4 I took out the US fleet off Hawaii, and took Hawaii due to the US flying fighters towards the Philippines to help deal with the India Crush.  Turn5 I moved my fleet SZ10 to convoy disrupt the US, and its purchase was again 8-10 subs.  Full retreat again because I can’t deal with those subs without destroyers.  Game ended early in Europe because Moscow fell on low luck rolls throughout the game, but Japan was again impotent.

Game three I went for Kill Anzac First.  Anzac saw it coming and blocked Anzac2 with a unit SZ54.  No problem just landed my units in Queensland and the Philippines on J3.  Took Sydeny J4.  Played blocker on J3 by placing Destroyers in SZ’s 25, 31, and 30.  J4 I sent my fleets to take Celebes, Java, Borneo, Sumatra and took all the DEI’s.  Collected 67 IPC or so.  US purchase was again 8-10 subs.  Went after Calcutta J5 with everything I had and lost the battled by 3 Inf.  However, even with a win, I would lose Calcutta soon as the UK went.  I took half of China in the game and started to withdraw because without holding Burma Road China was slowly reclaiming its provinces.  Plan was to hold Shanghai.  Was able to take Kwangtung and retake Shanghai on J5 but probably wasn’t holding it.  Played blocker J5 in SZ16, but just couldn’t muster enough defense to deal with multiple US carriers and subs on J6.  Lost the battle to hold Sydney and US liberated it.  Lost the battle on SZ6 and the US had 7 or so subs to shut down the Japanese economy and it was a matter of time before my economy was entirely scrambled.

So the question is, how exactly do you deal with a US purchase of 8-10 subs soon as it gets into the war?  It basically forces all Japanese fleets to retreat and at least 2 rounds of multiple Japan purchases of just destroyers so that the a large fleet’s worth of ships/fighters can take the subs out.  It shuts down Japan from an aggressor to a defender in no time flat.

Stack them on Amur and wait for Japan to ignore/forget about them, then attack.  At some point Japan is going to have to turn around to deal with it or face losing at least 7 IPC a turn.