Posts made by Sean.C

@wittmann:

EI is definitely a threatening IC buy, but it only gets you India’s VP. Now that might be enough to win as the Axis team.  My point, that I do not believe has been addressed, is how do you keep the Philippines Japanese? While you are going West with your remaining BB and AC what is defending them? US could take them and build their own IC.

Leave your starting fleet parked in SZ35 off of India.

I really feel the best defense against a KJF strategy is mass subs in SZ60, and wait for the US to pick a target.  Even if you can’t push the mainland it doesn’t matter.  Germany WILL take Moscow if the US doesn’t get to the mainland.  The UK may slow them down with FTR’s, but RUS and UK can’t do it alone.

I say put an IC on Borneo just to lure the US to take it, and when they do you pounce with 10-15 subs and your starting fleet in SZ35.  Or just let US build naval units round after round to try and counter your sub builds.  Every round they spend on naval units in the pacific is one round Germany is closer to taking Moscow and winning the game.

@Hobbes:

Here’s a crazy (and untested) idea:

1. Fly the Soviet fighters to both Egypt and to the UK carrier. Buy 1 carrier, 1 fighter and 1 submarine with the UK (30 IPC). Place it all on the UK fleet on SZ35. You’ll have 1 SS, 1 DD, 1 CA, 2 ACs and 4 FTRs.

Japan can attack with 1 BB, 1 AC, 1 DD, 6 FTRs and 1 BMR, 86% odds but that means spending most of its airforce and losing a carrier.

Well the sub only defends on a 1, and the japanese have 2 DD’s.  But lets take this assumption.  You couldn’t get the Australian Fleet there, and G1 should take out your SZ17 DD with the bomber from Germany.  (70% odds of winning, 20% odds of them killing each other, so 90% chance of taking it out).  Now you can also buy more naval units in UK2 before japan can attack SZ35, so perhaps a BB and a DD?

So you have 4 FTR’s, 2 AC’s, 1BB, 1CA, 1DD, 1SS for a defense of 30 VS an attacking fleet of 6 FTRS, 1 bomber, 2BB, 2AC, 1CA, 2DD, 1SS for an attack of 41. (99% chance of Japanese victory, 100% with LL dice)

Pretty sure your not going to keep the Indian Fleet.  Anyway you look at it, any money spent on UK1-2 in SZ35 is going to end up on the bottom of the Ocean.  The only way the starting SZ35 UK fleet lives is if it goes to the med.

@Gargantua:

can you use the dst or cru to block?

Well you could attack the DD and TRN in SZ61, but all the other naval units could just take alternate routs to SZ36.  Now i suppose you could put the TRN in SZ48 to block the SZ50 and SZ60 units, and hope your CA takes out the DD and TRN in SZ61, but even then all the naval units in SZ48 can make it to SZ35 the next turn.

@Hobbes:

@Sean.C:

EI is 2 SZ’s from Solomons, but 3 from Japan.

East Indies is 3 SZs from Solomon, not 2. That protects the IC from any immediate landings but to me the problem isn’t losing the IC to the US but that it can become a white elephant on the presence of an US fleet. And if Japan has to defend it with 4 or 6 inf that’s 30+ IPC of hardware that is doing nothing other than denying it to the US, who can also build another on Borneo.

I say let US take it, and then Counter with Subs built in SZ60, and your starting japanese navy in SZ35.  Let america waist money in the pacific.

I just don’t see how KJF is even possible with the new sub rules.  6IPC for a 2 attack sub with first strike capability and only hits naval units seems really overpowered to me.

J1, 2TRN and 1 IC.  Wait to see what US does.  If it’s KJF, then mass subs.

Sure japan doesn’t go far on the mainland, but who cares?  UK can’t do anything in the atlantic without the US, and the US can’t fund a balanced pacific and Atlantic fleet.  Japan will get India, and a handful of other 1 IPC spots in asia with just their starting units and end up with around 40 IPC which will be enough to counter any US pacific fleet purchases with subs.

Leave the Subs in SZ 60 and wait.  It takes 2 turns to get to anything important in the pacific.  If the US attacks Borneo, or Philippines, you counter and wipe it out with your subs and your starting fleet likely parked outside India.

Every turn US spends trying to counter the subs in the Pacific is 1 step closer to Germany taking Moscow and the game is over.  Maybe KJF will work if they don’t use this tactic, but i have a feeling once people realize it it will be the defacto counter to any KJF strategy.

@Mallery29:

except that you lose Borneo to the US.

How is that?

@Mallery29:

well, you can only build 4 on the EI, and you start off with two transports…so I’m lost why you care about Japan as it is…you should have two more transports on J1 (2trans/IC), and those 2 trans can deliver troops to Burma J2, while starting a shuck from EI to Burma/India.

I’ll take mutual destruction any day…if you eliminate 1BB, 1CV, 2FTRs, you give the US easy access to the Pacific…and you take heat off India because the US can now position itself in the Solomons.  And if you give the US easy access to Borneo, you’ll get plundered.

I understand everything you’re saying, but everything you can do from EI, you can do from Borneo.  So you don’t lose anything by building an IC on Borneo instead of EI, but you gain the ability to return to japan in 1 turn if you need to for whatever reason.

@Cow:

I don’t know man, the only reason the new transport rules worked in aa50 1941 was because the board was setup so the allies had no chance in the pacific and could make big things happen in europe.

aa50 1942, Russia usually fell to germany.

However it is fair to note, I seldom saw sea lion in aa50 and when I did, it only worked against new players.

So really, the new transport rules only worked in aa50 1941. But that is because the allies were setup properly.

In this version the allies get screwed and they can’t make big things happen like they could in aa50… so obviously they need to start with more units. Perhaps east usa needs to have a cruiser added on top, additional inf for egypt, another inf for london. Then maybe the allies can get poppin sooner.

I think adding additional starting units for either US or UK is definately a better option than to drop the transports take hits last rule.  Or possibly reducing the number of starting naval units for Germany, like drop that second sub from SZ9.

I’m going over the numbers again and again, and every time India seems like a money/time sink that ends up getting the allies no where.

Say the RUS1 FTR from Moscow goes to Egypt.  Say the G1 BB goes to SZ14, and the Bomber goes to SZ17.  Bomber has a 90% chance of killing the destroyer, and is the only thing in range of it besides the BB.

You can TRY to take out the Japanese units in SZ37, but the odds are not good.  You get an opening round attack of 2 with a 33% chance to tip their battleship, and then you have 13 attack vs 14 defense.  Even if your sub does hit you’re looking at losing most of those UK units, and if it misses you can kiss your UK fleet goodbye.

So i started thinking of alternatives.  If the RUS1 FTR goes to egypt that means the Suez is open for UK.  I could take the CA, 2FTR, 1CV, and 1TRN into the med, and take the ships in SZ39 east to the Atlantic with 2 INF from Australia.

The TRN in SZ35 could take 2 INF from India to Egypt, and the fleet could protect Egypt.  Then march the other INF from India to Trans Jordan and Egypt.  You’d get to use the India to build 3 units on UK1, and move them on UK2 before Japan has a chance to take it.  That should give you a fairly large force to hold Africa from Germany, and help Russia defend Caucuses from Japan.  Then on UK3 you could merge the Australian boats with the now Med boats in SZ14.

The only thing Germany could do to really counter is to put all their FTR’s to Southern Europe which means they would be too far to attack anything on the Russian front without landing in Ukrain and Belarosia, which is usually contested territories with only 1 defending INF in them at this point in the game while Germany builds it’s forces to push Russia.  So your limiting the German Luftwaffe against Russia even before possibly destroying some of them if they try to take out the UK fleet in the med.

The German FTR’s in Norway and NW Europe will almost certainly attack the UK BB in SZ7 along with their Subs and CA in SZ5.  So they won’t be able to get to SZ17 until G3.  The 3-4 subs will also not be able to help until G3.  The German BB and TRN in the med will have to move out of the Med.  If they go north now the UK planes in Brittain will get to blow them up, if they go south they can attempt to take Africa from the west but with only 2 units without the likelihood of any additional backup which your UK units in Africa should be able to handle.

You will have at least 4INF, 1 ART, 1 TNK in Egypt, if not more if you keep pulling INF back to Africa from the middle east.  That should be enough to clean up any german units in Africa.  So now you hold Africa, and destroy any chance Germany has of taking it.  You can probably do a little finagling with your UK fleets to avoid the sole Germany BB, and combine your Australian naval units with your med naval units, to help hold Africa and invade Germany.

Thoughts?  I just can’t think of any other good things to use India for.  Defending it seems like a lost cause.

@Cow:

Less rules. Transports defend @ 1 and can be taken as casualties like everything else.

There was nothing wrong with the old transport rule, sure some people hated getting hit by a 1 roll (Bayder), but it did not make the transport rule bad.

Also it allows germany to do sea lion and actually be a threat to london, so you might see some different games here and there.

I hate the new tank cost being 6. Tanks are bad units for the price, hell even mechanized infantry @ 4 cost attacking at 1 is better on offense than tanks (3 mech > 2 tank because of cannon fodder factor by about 6%)

Transports being used as cannon fodder just doesn’t make sense.  Making you select them last in combat resolves that issue.  Let them continue to defend on a 1, but you have to select them last as targets.

@Mallery29:

Sean, I’d put that IC in EI.  EI is two zones from the Solomons, where Borneo/Phillipines is only 1.  But your 2Trans/IC buy is valid.  This could be ruined too if the Egypt FTR is alive and the fleet hits EI.  If the UK survives with anything, you are in real trouble in the Pacific.

That’s a really big IF.  UK with the 1FTR from Egypt is 13 attack with an opening round 2 sub strike vs a 14 defense.  Basically if your sub misses, which it will 66% of the time, then you can kiss your UK boats in the Indian Ocean goodbye.

EI is 2 SZ’s from Solomons, but 3 from Japan.  I would really rather not be more than 1 turn between the two.  I just don’t see the benefit to EI.  You’re further from Hawaii, Midway, and Japan, and the only thing your closer to is Southern Africa.  Because of how the SZ’s work, they are the same distance from the Suez.  Borneo just seems to be the more strategic location.

@Cromwell_Dude:

I could never go back to Classic or Revised with their transport rules. I understand your frustration. However, imagine the frustration of some one attacking a battleship and destroyer with 10 transports as fodder. People got tired of other people ‘abusing’ the transport rule/purchase. How about some one create a poll for this topic? Revised transport rules or 1942 transport rules?

I definitely think transports need to be selected last.  That keeps transports from being used as cannon fodder for BB’s n such.  But giving no defense to transports is one step too far.  The previous rule has already fixed the problem, why add insult to injury?

@Cow:

Tanks shoot down fighters in this game… Yet transports cannot ram into ships.

I see your point.  So give transports a defense of 1 against everything, but keep the rule that they have to be selected last as targets in naval battles?

@Hobbes:

I have never seen a J2 conquer of India so far on any of my games and I don’t believe it to be something possible, unless both SZ37 and and the transport on SZ61 are intact.

Otherwise for a J2 you’ll have a max of you’ll have 7 ground units, plus 7 planes plus the bombardment but that just puts severe limits on Japan’s ability to hit anything else on J1. And the UK should have something like 9 ground units, plus 2/3 fighters, plus whatever help the Russians/US can spare and from a quick glance the odds should favor the defenders, plus if Japan lose there’s no units for a follow up attack.

So im running the numbers here after the last game i just played as allies.  If i try to take out the Japanese units in SZ37 i will have 13 attack + first round sub attack that hits 33% of the time VS 14 defense.  It feels like if i don’t hit with the sub on the first round of combat I’m screwed.  Which is what happened to me last game when i played allied.  I ended up retreating with 1 CV, 1 CA, and 2 TRN with 2 INF from Australia back to SZ35, dropping the INF in India.  All i was able to destroy was 2 fighters, which japan easily replaced with the 2 fighters from the mainland on their J1.  So now i have the japanese fleet in SZ36 with 2BB, 2CV, 4FTR, 1CA, 2DD, 2 TRN.  Thy have 4 INF, 2 ART, 1TNK in Burma, while i have 6INF and the US FTR from Szechwan.  I can maybe get 2 FTR for defense my turn before they invade, but do i put them on my CV, or in India?  Is there any possible way you can keep the british fleet in the Indian Ocean alive?  It doesn’t seem possible.  Do i just kamakazi it on the Japanese units in SZ37 and say “screw the british fleet” and just stock up on INF and FTR’s in India?
J2 will bring 7INF, 2ART, 1TNK.  16attack vs my 16defense?  And that’s IF japan doesn’t use it’s BB, CA, FTR, or Bomber.

It just seems like no matter what you do, it is always going to end up being a coin flip, and i hate playing games that i end up winning or losing based on a coin flip.

@Gargantua:

KGF.

Build your OWN subs to match theirs LOL…

or

Save your money, to inspire him to build even more subs, then KGF.

Can you also on the other side of Panama with a destroyer? and then come through and attack?  (I don’t have the map in front of me).

Problem, now your 2 or 3 turns behind going KGF, and Germany is knocking on russia’s door.  I have gone a pretty heavy INF defensive build with russia, and Germany looks to be knocking at my door in the next 2-3 turns.  How can you try for KJF, see japan is massing subs, and then switch to KGF?  It seems like losing those 3 turns is all the Axis need to win.  Even if subs do nothing to take territories, it doesn’t matter, Because it keeps US/UK from doing anything in the Pacific, and by the time they know any better it’s too late to switch strategy’s because Russia is about to fall and the game is over.

Now you might be thinking “well if they buy 5 subs first turn, i will just ignore japan and go KGF first turn”, but what if the J1 build is fairly normal, with some TRN’s n such, and then wait for you to commit to a KJF, then switch to mass subs.  Sure they arn’t going to take much on the mainland other than India, but they don’t need to because Germany is going to destroy Russia.

I just don’t see how a KJF strategy could ever work.  The moment you commit to it, Japan masses subs, and it’s game over for the allies.  At least if you go KGF you don’t have to worry about german naval units after G1.

Say i park 15 Japanese subs in SZ56 (assume the US pacific fleet is gone), what can US do about it?

Lets say it’s a KJF game, or at least it starts out that way.  Japan takes India on J2 with it’s starting fleet and starting land units from islands and the mainland, and has been buying subs since J1 (5 at a time).  What can US do to counter a mass amount of Japanese subs?  Then once the US fleet in the pacific is gone, and there are 15 Japanese subs parked in SZ56, how do you get back into the fight?  Do you just mass destroyers and pray for good dice?  What if your playing with LL dice?

I figure once the entire starting Japanese pacific fleet combines it will be enough to take out any UK fleet in the Indian Ocean.  I should also be able to take India with just my starting units off the islands and on the mainland.  Russia has it’s hands full with Germany.

What am i missing?  How do you counter this when trying to do a KJF strategy?

I don’t see why you would WANT to be more than 2 spaces from Solomon islands.  Why are the Solomon islands important?  I would think you’d WANT to be 2 SZ’s away from possible US targets so you can quickly move your fleet to defend, or counterattack in a single turn.  Being more than 1 turn away from important places makes me feel too uneasy.  I’m heavily leaning towards Borneo, just so i can build 2 TNK and 2 INF each turn, and put them on 2 TRNS to take to mainland.  On Philippines i would be 1 spot short on my transport each turn, just makes it feel “not optimized”.  And then I’d be 2 SZ’s from Inida, and Japan, and all the major islands.  Between Borneo and Japan, I’d have an IC within 2 SZ’s of all starting islands.

Right now I’m thinking for J1, 2 TRNS, 1 IC in Borneo, and moving half the fleet off the coast of Burma, and half off the coast of Borneo.  Bringing everything i can to Burma to prepare to take India on J2.

I figure the quicker i can shut down India, the quicker Germany can take Africa, and the quicker Japan can focus on Russia and/or USA.

@Mallery29:

Recommend new dice…although I would pull the art/inf off the Phillipines, but that’s just me (stop playing that VC crap).

I agree.  How is holding a VC proof your winning the war?  Play until it’s obvious by all players involved that one side will eventually win, which usually happens after one of the five countries’ capital falls.

VC’s make no sense whatsoever.  IPC victories made way more sense than VC’s, and look how well that idea was received.

It’s a game, if you made it like real life then the axis would never win, and no one would ever play.

So you have to make it as even for both sides as possible.

My son usually wants to play Allies, and i was thinking about giving him between 6-10 bid.  At least one unit in Egypt so he can hold Africa on G1.

@MrMalachiCrunch:

Although it takes an extra turn for production from Japan to reach the mainland, since the IPC you spend on a IC is spent on actual units so they appear 1 turn earlier.  The next turn your builds on the IC appear after the action occurs for R2 whereas those units you build on R1 can actually participate in the action the following round.  I agree that for the most part for Japan, build ICs when you max out your spending on the Japanese homeland IC.

I see what your saying, but i think I’d still want an IC in either Philippines or Borneo, probably Philippines.  Just so that any naval units i buy are only 2 SZ’s away from India.

So the last version of this game i played was revised.  I was blown away when i went online last week to look up some revised strategy only to find out that 3 new versions since revised had come out.  I only got this game like 5 years ago.  I never thought a board game would get updated that often.

I always used to play with the “Larry Harris tournament 2.0” rules, instead of the rules in the box, mostly for the changes to strategic bombing which made winning with axis almost impossible.  I had 2 boxes worth of stuff because i was constantly running out of things with only 1 box of stuff.

First thing i notice about 42.2 is the box, its textured on the outside; “That’s classy” i thought.  I also liked how the cardboard country circles and country cards were textured too.  I really like all the new molded units.  The map is HUGE!  It doesn’t fit on my dinning room table anymore.  I do like the increased room though.

My complaints about the game:

Only 6 dice?  Revised came with 6 white, 3 red, 3 black and that still felt like it wasn’t enough to play the game.  The other thing that irked me about these new dice is they didn’t match my revised dice.  So i left the dice in the bag and didn’t use them.  I have 2 sets of revised dice for a total of 12 white, 6 red and 6 black, that should be enough.

Cardboard IC’s?  Wow, talk about skimping.  I am SOOOO glad i still have 24 plastic IC’s from revised.

No paper money?  Again, glad i have my paper money from revised.

No marshaling cards?  This was one of the most amazing things about revised to me.  I can’t believe they got rid of it.

I really don’t like the national production being on the map.  I much preferred the map to remain clean with national production being on a separate card.  Also the two halves of the map don’t exactly line up properly.

Haven’t gotten a chance to play it yet, but it looks like i might need more plastic units for certain countries.  Like perhaps more tanks for japan.  I still have all my revised plastic pieces, so i can supplement as needed.

All in all it seems like a good “upgrade”, but if i didn’t have stuff from an older version of the game, i would likely be really upset.  I’d much rather spend $100 instead of $60 and get a complete game instead of one that feels like it’s been cut down to the bare minimums.  Make two versions of the game, the normal $60 version, and a “deluxe” one for more that gives things like molded plastic IC’s, paper money, more dice, marshaling cards, and maybe a cleaner looking map with separate production card.

@Hobbes:

If you’re looking to press Russia through China, then Manchuria but only after you’ve used all of Japan’s production, but that takes a while because now 4 inf and 4 tank cost 36 IPC instead of 32 and it takes longer for Japan to increase its income from Asia.

Yea but using transports for tanks n such from japan takes an extra turn.  You have to build, then transport, then attack with them.  Instead of building them on the mainland where the turn after building units you can blitz and attack with them.

I’ve always built the IC’s on the mainland first turn to take this extra turn out of the equation and supplement those units with extra units from japan.

@Cow:

Transports can ram into other ships, historically they have done so as well. Though I could only find instances of transports ramming into subs.

In all fairness to transports, they aren’t exactly in big naval showdowns such as midway/wake etc. They are equipped with AA guns and they can ram into stuff.

[sarcasm]Someone call up Larry Harris!  We need to get the ship ramming rule into the next revision!   :-D [/sarcasm]

You’re absolutely right, i don’t ever recall seeing a mass of transports taking out ships on big naval showdowns like midway/wake.  Making you choose transports last i think keeps transports out of major sea battles, which is the way it should be.

@Lozmoid:

Sean, you’re absolutely right - I meant “Transports can defend at 1 but hits cannot be assigned to sea units”. My bad. � :-)

The only thing i can think of why this might not make it into the game, or why it didn’t make it into the game, is because it almost requires a completely extra step during combat.  You have opening fire with subs, then you’d have regular combat, then you’d have transport fire that gets assigned to only air units.