50 IPC, to try something different with a bit more pressure on Japan and minimum in Europe. If AndrewAAGamer would like to give a try in a non-league game I’d be willing.
SZ 98: 1 sub
SZ 91: 1 sub
Alexandria: 1 infantry
Yunnan: 1 infantry
Moscow: 1 fighter
Volgograd: 1 fighter
Amur, Sakha, Buryatia: 1 artillery a piece (12 IPC)
The key to Allies having a chance in OOB is wear down the Axis air forces and to snip out Japanese land units from exchanges with numerous nations.
While that’s happening, a strong force of UK fighters, US bombers/fighters, and a gradually stronger force of Anzac fighters act as a flexible force. A first pressure point is usually India, followed closely by Moscow, and finally the Middle East.
Our options to reduce Axis air and Japanese ground troops.
Adding infantry to Yunnan increase expected losses (must take territory) from 5 to 9 (4 IPC for 3 IPC). Then a soviet fighter takes this to 19.5 (10 IPC for 10 IPC), and a second Soviet fighter takes this to 36 IPC (16 IPC for 10 IPC). So here by spending 23 IPC you force commitment of Japanese bombers and will likely take 2 Japanese planes with you. This remains an attractive target for the Japanese, you definitely do not want to let these planes escape and get back to Moscow.
Now, what are options to take down the German air force? Ideally, what we would do is to tempt the axis player in attacking both 110/111, and getting lift from two scrambles, hopefully trading 4 allied planes against 3-4 German planes (leaving 8-9 German planes on the map). Note that we need to retain enough air power for Taranto.
In order to create further disruption, take the transport from 98 and land one infantry and on AA gun in Greece. This forces Italy or Germany to attack Greece, otherwise any remaining fighters left on a carrier can let the carrier perish first. Hopefully the remaining fleet in the med + Greece will destroy another 2 German planes, bringing them down to 6-7 planes.
This reducing Axis air force business is critical because this air force is a force multiplier, forcing us to build huge navies and armies to invade the continent.
In other words, in early rounds it’s OK to play Rocky balboa and lose 15 IPC of units for each 10 IPC of Axis air units.
So stepping back on the priorities here.
Sub in 98 is critical for Taranto.
The sub in 91 really helps take out 96, we don’t want Italy to have 2 transports.
We spend 23+12 to date so 41, have 9 IPC to spare.
An extra infantry in Paris is causing 4 IPC additional losses, it’s not bad of a ROI and might encourage the Axis player to send the tactical bomber there to avoid a 1 in 200 chance of losing the battle.
With the 6 IPC that remains, it would either be a sub in 110 (further pressure German R1 attack, potentially save the 106 ships), or a combination of one artillery in the soviet far east (to increase the offensive fear factor of this stack) + 2 IPC in the UK bank, allowing a 3 fighter purchase (very needed after the first round).
After thinking about the long term logistics and economics of the game a fair bit, I am getting comfortable with my Germany strategy.
What puzzles me though is the Japan entry in the war and how it may affect the European board.
My current idea for Japan is the following:
Turn 1:
Build 3 transports, 1 Mech
Declare war on US, UK, Anzac
Combat 1: Repeat of Prince of Wales sinking, with 2 strategic bombers, cruiser from 20 and fighter from Formosa.
Combat 2: Land 1 infantry in Borneo (infantry from Kiangsi), Transport from zone 20, covers with fleet from Carolinas
Combat 3: Attack Phillipines
Ground battle, 1 tank, 1 artillery and 2 infantry (2 remaining transport)
Tac bomber / figther from Carolinas carrier
See battle, 2 subs (zone 6 and 19), zone 19 battleship, zone 19 destroyer, cruiser from zone 6 and 2 carriers + planes from zone 6.
Combat 4: Take chahar with 1 infantry from Jehol
Combat 5: 2 infantry from Siam take French Indo
Combat 6: Attack Kwantung
1 Art from Kiangsi
2 INF from Kwangsi
2 Tac from Japan
1 fighter from Okinawa
1 fighter from Kiangsu
1 tac from Kiangsu
Combat 7: Attack Anwhe
1 Infantry and 1 Art from Jehol
3 infantry and 1 art from Kiangsu
3 infantry and 1 art from Shantung
1 Mech from Mandchuria
Combat 8: Attack Hunan
2 Inf from Kiangsi
2 fighters from Mandchuria (Goes to Kwangsi)
2 tac from Mandchuria (goes to Kwangsi)
Non Combat
4 Infantry from Korea into Mandchuria
6 Infantry from Mandchuria in Jehol
In Kwangsi
5 fighters (2 from Mandchuria, 1 Okinawa, 1 Formosa, 1 Kiangsu)
5 tactical bombers
2 bombers
1 ART
1 Inf
In Anwhe
7 Inf
1 Mec
3 Artillery
Leave in Japan to protect against Hawai fleet
2 DD
1 BB
3 fighters (1 from Korea, 2 from Japan)
Losses
1 cruiser zone 20
1 infantry in Kwantung
1 infantry in Hunnan
2 infantry in Phillipines
Total: 24 IPC
Japan collects 40 IPC
The result of Turn 1 is:
a) Weakened UK southeast fleet by destroying battleship, forces UK to spend all money on fleet and potentially pull out of the Med to reinforce India, giving relief to Italy.
b) took 7 IPC off UK bankrolll with Hong Kong and Borneo
c) UK / Anzac are not in position to take Dutch islands
d) japan well positioned to attack Malaya (Pounding on India more and crippling Anzac further)
e) China is pushed back a little bit and a decent stack of land units is moving down China
f) US loses Philipines (2 IPC + 5 IPC bonus)
g) preservation of Japanese Navy, Fleet off philipines can easily pull back to Japan as necesary
h) There is not much that India, China and Anzac or US can do in the immediate to retaliate.
Obvious disadvantage is that US gets more income immediately and has the initiative in Europe. For example. US forces could head straight for Gibraltar and link up with a portion of the British navy that survives. But, a critical portion of my European strategy is to control Gibraltar…
Let’s assume this continues:
On Turn 2, Japan:
May buy a carrier if US fleet is threatening
6 land units (infantry and mech infantry)
Maybe something else (e.g., or another transport)
Takes Malaya (UK down to 9, assuming persia was taken)
Takes Shan States to start putting pressure on India (UK down to 8)
If Malaya is weak and if not costly to protect transport, take one of the Dutch Islands
Navy destroys blockers off 37, 42, 41, 38 and may attack fleet in Zone 39
Stays quiet and China, takes free territory, but avoid battles while moving south
Japan drops 6 land units on mainland with transport built (Kiangsu)
Watch moves of US navy and Anzac for transports and counter attacks on islands.
You note that I am not cutting the Burma road, but given the firepower in Hunnan and Kwangsi, the Chinese will build up stay back on Turn 2.
Meanwhile, the Italians focus on coming through Irak to squeeze in India good.
In Turn 3, japan builds up navy to handle US and keep expanding his grasp on the Islands and builds.
In Turn 4, India should fall and Japan will have plenty to face China, at least on a defensive basis (planes)
I think the US would need to react to this and spend a decent deal of IPCs in the Pacific?
My strategy with Germany is to steadily build a counter to UK / US invation while grinding into Russia with some help with the Italians (main objective is Leningrad and keeping Norway with a strong Navy.
Thoughts?
I’ve considered a Japan attack turn 2 strategy, but in this case I can’t seem to benefit as much from the initiative (don’t count on mistakes on the Allies’s players part, he’s quite good)
Wow, the Soviet Mechanized corps is heading to the shores of Africa. Just saw.
@trulpen said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:
I’d only scramble if there were a 10 TUV-difference or more against not doing it.
Sorry guys, but I think it’s better to get this Colossus going. The decision is made. Submerge all and no scramble.
However, feel free to chip in while we wait for Andrew’s execution of battles and the turn.
Once decided no reason to wait.
Understand the reluctance to scramble, the move considers the long game and puts lots of value in reducing options for the Luftwaffe (In hands of a good player the starting Luftwaffe is worth a lot more than IPC swing).
Another way to think about this, pretty sure Andrew doesn’t want us to scramble :) and risk attrition on the Luftwaffe.
Moves such as this (when you can afford them, let’s not be reckless) end up reducing options for the adversary. If Andrew knows that we aren’t afraid to force attritional battles and if this is against his declared style, we expand our range of options and reduce his range of options. This is a bit like playing aggressive at poker which may be slightly suboptimal/risky for this particular hand, but good in the long run. A very good Allied player once said that to win as the allies, drink a beer and play a bit looser! ;)
Absolutely worth using Chinese infantry on the offense but do not over commit. Your goal as China is to kill as many Japanese units as possible, and to push back as much as possible. Even 1 on 1 duels can be worth it at times. A lone infantry against a Japanese infantry kills 40% of the time vs. 33% of the time on defense. You may also take some income back and slow down the Japanese.
You have to figure out what you can afford to use vs. critical objectives, e.g., holding Yunnan, making it very costly to retake Yunnan, or ensuring the survival of your fighter / ensuring that retaking Yunnan is possible.
Ouch, that G1. :)
Before evaluating the Soviet buy, it would pay to try to establish what UK/US will do assuming a J1. Sorry in advance for the long ramble.
We seem to have opportunity to put immediate pressure on Germany in 110 / on continent.
UK buy carrier and 1 fighter, save 2
Ignore 106
Send 91 cruiser + Sub + Malta fighter against 96. The Malta Fighter will land into Morocco for flexible repatriation to London (and help retake Gibraltar if Italians go there).
Send 98 fleet + Gibraltar fighter against + UK bomber + 1 UK fighter against 97 (assume no scramble / lose a sub). (land tac + bomber in Cyprus which are safe unless if Italy takes greece) Resulting fleet will be wiped out in one strike if all German air goes to nuke it out., but then 110 is safe and sea lion fully off the table. If Germany spreads to take on the 96 cruiser as well, its’s 3.5 planes lost on average.
Attack 110 with 111 fleet, 109 fleet and 3 fighters.
Land an infantry in Holland Belgium, to prevent Italian and German planes from landing there. France can retake it if Italy tries to reclaim. Get 3 IPC. Gives extra incentive for Germany to hit 110 and lose its air force, Note, Germany can build a carrier and land its South Italy planes on it to deploy all its air. With all the planes , it’s a 95% battle for Germany with 80 IPC loss for Germany/120 IPC for UK. Without the two South Italy planes, it’s a 60% battle with 92 IPC loss for Germany and 110 for UK, which is really not a risk that should be taken. A serious treat to the UK involves building a carrier and invites Sea Lion. There’s 50 IPC left for Germany (makes 8 loaded transports) + say 6 planes left. UK will have 2 IPC + 28 + 5 (originals) + 3 (Belgium) + 2 (Persia) +2 Greece - 2/3 (convoy)= 39 IPC of purchases (9 infantry + 1 fighter or better). A sea lion attempt in these conditions is possible only if US can’t bring bombers to bear which would require a J3DOW. It’s unlikely that this would be pulled off and Germany wouldn’t have much to cover its transport fleet in 110 anyways against a US bomber / carrier planes on US 3. This is very important, others should check this math.
NCM: Land Malta infantry + AA gun in Greece, deploy transport in 99 to draw fire from Italian/German plane or Italian sub (weakens counter on 96/93). Greece most likely to hold one turn unless if Germany air / infantry is committed.
NCM: Take Erie with mech.
NCM: Move Canadian sub to 91
NCM: Stack Alexandria with all group troops available (only remote chance involves all Italian air and is very dicy for Italian naval plans. No Landing possible if 97/96 occupied. This prevent walk in into Alexandria reinforced by German air and will force German air to protect Tobruk instead.
So based on all this and stepping back,
Assuming no JDOW, US should buy a destroyer, a carrier, and 2 bombers, save 4. Place all Atlantic side. Assuming JDOW, Sea lion is off the table because of the US fighter that can be sent to Morocco and reach London on US 2. In that case, can replace one of the bombers with a carrier for the Pacific and adding a transport for the Atlantic.
If G2 attack on 110 is skipped (too risky, not worth buying a German carrier and not worth not hitting 97, then situation is following):
Italy income crippled for I2 purchases (very good), only 1 transport left and potentially dying immediately,
Strong allied surface fleet in 110 (sub can be put as picket in 125 on UK 2), 2 British submarines in the med / all surface units destroyed on Germany 2. Strong air force left in the med (1 bomber, 1 tac, 1 UK fighter). for repeat UK landing in Holland/Normandy supported by air force and bombardment. Possibility to park some surface fleet in 92 to deny Italian NO.
Axis air force still strong but dented ~9-10 planes including some helping the Italians in Africa. Greece is a spiky thorn in the side but will be dealt with one way or another.
The key becomes whether we can cheaply bring US units to bear with cheap protection of 91. It will be tempting for Italians to seize Gibraltar to prevent construction of air base if the US is not in a position to retake it. This airbase on UK 2 is a great force multiplier for 91/92 protection, ferrying of planes to reinforce Soviets, and could be paired up with some ground troops and minor complex in Persia on UK 2.
Based on this and the pressure on Western Europe, I believe we can make a stand in Bryansk on G5 provided that we have enough Infantry. As a result, the main German army will move into Ukraine (we stay in Bryansk and hold. On G6 German goes into Rostov in which case we will want enough fodder to fend an Italian can opener and move to Tambov (then the German stack needs to chose between Bryansk without being able to hold Volgorad). We can add offensive power later after we see things play out / are suffering bombardments.
By G7 the UK should be very well established in the Middle East for as long as Japan doesn’t overwhelm everything!
So I agree with 12 save 1 or 11 infantry / 1 artillery.
@barnee said in What Turn to Attack with Japan?:
I always thought it was cow who originated it. Good to know. As in the real world, things do develop in parallel : )
I believe Cow is the one that exercised it / pushed it to the level of respect it deserves.
@Saber25 said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:
@Arthur-Bomber-Harris No kidding. Axis bombers are a huge pain.
Says “Bomber” Harris ;)
Anzac capital ships are great if you can afford them, but priority for ground troops, transports and fighters! Anzac fighters are great for defending island, supporting Calcutta, China and even Moscow!
Looking at situation, Germany has low income. Pressure on Norway while making sure to get fighters into Moscow should do the trick here. For as long as Russia gets Scandinavian income + US direct threat in Norway, the redirection of Germans to Middle East should be manageable.
How about you sign up to play and you can test this strategy against the allies. :-D
The best way to evaluate this strategy is to test it out against a worthwhile opponent.
