Posts made by Obergruppenfuhrer

@General:

No, I disagree, every account I have read describes the Italians as hopeless fighters. You explain away all their military failures to leadership? They failed in Greece, they failed in France, they failed in Africa, and they failed in the med, and thats all atributable to poor leadership. Thats a bit coincidental I think.

Do yourselves a favour, go onto google, search Italians eastern front, and read articles on how they fought.

Am I saying the Russians never retreated? No! I used it as a historically correct generalised factual statement. Stalin had a policy of not one step back. It basically meant that if a Russian retreated, or if a Russian was found behind enemy lines, then they were either shot or sent to the gulag. A big enough incentive to not retreat, wouldn’t you say? And yes that incentive did work!

Yes they probably had poor equipment, and yes they probably had low fuel, and yes any chance they had they ran like hell for the hills! Italians weren’t and aren’t good fighters, and I am by no means saying this is a bad thing! They just are preferential towards fine wine and women, and who can blame them.

As for historically correct, the game is meant to be correct up to spring of 1942, or at least close to historical correctness. Then its up to you to decide the future. Making out that the Italians were good soldiers for the sake of the game, is a bit too far fetched.

Nice. Not to go into sweeping generalizations here but I’m inclined to fervently agree with you. I specifically study the Waffen SS and the Italians ran all the time at the Russian front. 109’s and Stuka’s returning from sorties would make strafing passes at the Italians who were literally running away, leaving the Germans all alone back there.

True account from “Eagles Of the 3rd Reich. The men who made the Luftwaffe”

There was one airfield left in a certain sector of the Eastern front and Russian planes were close by. The Luftwaffe were scrambling to get the few planes they had ready, into the air. The Italians were manning the 88’s that defended the field. As the German pilots scrambled a few planes in the air, Russian fighters and bombers were in clear sight and heading directly for the field.

The Italians actually got up and started running away from their when they saw the first planes coming, leaving all the scrambling pilots and their planes, sitting ducks. That disgusts me.

@ABWorsham:

My grandfather landed in France on D+4 with the U.S 2nd Inf.

I had the best memories listening to him discuss the War.

Man, tell me those stories! I would have loved to be there with you hearing them. Those poor guys in the first wave. Man. That’s what I’d call a sacrafice to our country.

@Jermofoot:

@Obergruppenfuhrer:

That is the most awesome quote Gewehr!

“It is the soldier,not the reporter,
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier,not the poet,
Who has given us the freedom of speech.
It is the soldier,not the campus organizer,
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier,not the lawyer,
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the soldier,
Who salutes the flag,
Who serves under the flag,
And whose coffin is draped in the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag”

Wow, call me dumb.  I thought it was the US Constitution that did those things.

Sure. I’ll call you dumb if you really want. A piece of paper does NOTHING without action. Nice try on “the bigger picture” though. I’ll give you that.

Not romance. “Romantizing a period of time” is what I reffer to. It happens all the time. Just like some “romantize” the revolutionary times in the 60’s.

But I’m using illustrations more and more like a creative writer here (which I am) and less like a stone cold Killer or historian.

So lets just get back to business as usual shall we? My Reich armor can pop Shermans like they were balloons.

–-Yeah. I’m now considering myself a Nashorn ace. I don’t recall losing a single battle yet where I had that vehicle. I love that thing. A stone cold, calculated tank obliterator. You just have to keep it safe on the board becuase of it’s weak defense. With it’s ability to ignore one hex of cover, it’s usually not hard to keep that thing in an awesome sniper postion and it’s got the speed to fall back if necessary. Plus – my god, the range alone on that wepon! I love this game.

@Deaths:

As you can tell, I am a Fan of Totenkopf. Their Combat prowess is just Plain Awesome considering the BS it had to do also.

I have read many Books on the German War Machine, And what Germany had Accomplished in the 20 yr timespan between wars, is Just amazing.

Hitler Prior to the war, Was a Great Leader for Germany, He was in Charge basically when Germany was put back on the map Economically, and Militarily.

So what Happens if the Assination on Hitlers life is Successful? Does this mean Himmler is in Charge?  Sounds like instaed of a Assaination attempt, a culling of the leadership Herd was in order.

That’s awesome! I’m also a huge fan of Totenkopf! They held out for 70 some days completely surrounded! Even under heavy losses they pressed hard against the worst parts of the pocket. I can tell we share the same passion and interest in this specific units. Never had an SS unit achieved so many Knights Crosses in such a short amount of time.

Very well put Deaths Head. Goering was such a lazy fool and a dope addict. He wanted MORE planes and not better ones. His arrogance cost the Germans their first real defeat at Dunkirk when Goerring persuaded Hitler that they could take the city without much, if any ground support. He was just trying to prove a point that his Luftwaffe was “the bomb” (pun half intended there)

They shold have made peace with England after taking Western Europe or continued bombing the RAF instead of Hitlers stupid decision to bomb civilian towns as a knee jerk, retaliatory reaction for a few bombs that fell in Germany one night. Goerring and Hitler were complete idiots when it came to fighting a war. I give credit more to the pilots and the Waffen SS who fought with incredible resolve in bad circumstances they were put in by the chain of command. (which was a quarrelsome, disorganized bunch at the top of it all)

Russia DID demmand territory from Hitler and he was NOT having it. Like you said, they were conquerors. Many Russians citizens originally helped the SS Honor Brigades and looked to them as liberators until those damn Enzentsgruppen Units started following the SS and Weirmacht, waiting until they won the city, then rounding up whomever they wished for extermination. Those gutless pieces of Sh*t! Didn’t fight in battle; just waited to round people up for mass murder. But again, we face who’s responsible for that decision: Hitler and Himmler.

Those units were doing things that made many of their men commit suicide. Letters were even sent by some of their top officers to Himmler and Hitler, pleading with them to reassign their units to other tasks because many of them could barely handle the guilt of what they were doing. Hitler responded by calling them “soft” and basically told them to “stomach it” and get it done. Sick. They could have taken Russia much easier with long range bombers and without the extermination squads on the heels of the military. They would have had a lot more cooperation from citizens of occupied territory. Stalin was a murdering mad man who may have been even crazier than Hitler.

The Waffen SS were taking POW’s while the Russian NKVD units were doing things like leaving German POW’s hacked to death with spades in towns where the Germans took power. They would even round up all the Russian civilians of the town and intsead of evacuating them, they would leave them all shot dead for the Germans to see.

We’ve discussed this before but I’ll reiterate that Russian “Labor Camps” killed far more peope than German concentration camps ever did.

The Waffen SS unit “Leibstandarte” found the bodies of their many comrades hacked to death with spades. (one of the 3 most successful and brave SS units) They retaliated by ordering no prisoners taken and for 3 days in mid 1942, they shot around 4000 Russian soldiers captured on the spot.

The Weirmachts original disgust for the SS sooned turned to favor after seeing such things done by especailly the NKVD. General Eberhard von Mackensen wrote personllay to Himmler describing the unit “Leibstandarte” as, and I quote: “a genuine elite unit I am proud and happy to have under my command and, further more, I wish to retain.”

Source of refferce: “The SS: Hitlers Instrument Of Terror” by Gordon Williams.

@Deaths:

@ABWorsham:

Great point timerover51. How fast could Germany have built a navy by 1945? What size would this navy been?

Pretty Quickly if they hadn’t Attacked Russia, And a Good Chunk of the Z-Plan would have been Realized, Making the KGM more then a Heavy hitting Token Fleet.

I am completly Convinced had the Russians and Germans Stayed Allies. The Axis would have won WWII, weather it happens in 1935, or 39, or 45.

The UK and The US would not Stand a Chance Against them.

Good point Timeover 51. Hitler went to enormous lengths to hide the training of his men. Glider clubs were the cover for pilot training and other atheltic clubs were really training soldiers and indoctrinating youth into Nazi ideology. The Nazis had to remain very secretive at first as to not provoke retaliation of the Allies by breaking the Treaty.

As for your point Deaths Head. I respectfully disagree, but only on these grounds: In “Mein Kampf” it is very clear that Hitler wants communism crushed, hence, he wants Russia. Walter Weaver was one of the Luftwaffes best examples of a man that understould the agenda that book preached, and how the Luftwaffe should achieve those goals. He was the only major Nazi champion of the “4 engine bomber program” to attack Russian industry as I’ve mentioned before in these forums.

The Russians had been supplying Spain with tanks and other military help during the Spanish Civil war while the Germans supplied the Spanish Fascist movement with military help. One of the biggest gifts the germans gave Spanish Fascists was their Messerchmitt 109’s. Thier pilots achieved amazing success due to their aicrafts vast superiority in that time frame.

The SA had been in street fights with communist groups that led to deaths all the time. There was SO much tension between the NSDAP and the Russians from the get go, there was no way for an alliance. It was Russia who made the first agressive move against Germany by seizing Eastern Poland in 1939. Then they invaded Lithuania, Lativia and Estonia in 1940.

It should be noted that aside from invading countries right up against Germanies occupation, they proceeded to demmand that Hitler give them Finland and Norway. Hitler had enough and invaded Russia. Russias moves prior to Hitlers invasion were already setting up the Eastern front which Germany immediately began pushing back well out of Europe.

The NSDAP and eventually SA, the Waffen SS and the 3rd Reich in its entirety, were natural enemies of Communists and thereby; Russia.

I agree if they were allies, the war would have been far different but that never would have happened. National Socialists were natural enemies of communists.

Awesome! I’ll look for it on Amazon! I’ve found some originals that are listed in poor condition and are 5 bucks or cheaper. Then they show up at my house in damn near perfect shape other than you can tell it’s been read.

Ohh! I’ll be spending the weekend studying Von Manstein. Seriously. I hardly know a thing. Thanks for theory.

@Imperious:

but Hitler saw the Me-262 as a bomber and wanted it specified for that primary purpose.

Thats just what i said, but that it was a mistake to waste its abilities in this role, when they would have been better utilized as a proven interceptor against allied bombers and deployed as such earlier, than retrofit additional ordinance and equipment.

Oh -ok! I thought that may have been what you meant and I completely agree with you. They were proven to be a deadly interceptor and at the speeds they were capable of, you’d think that would be the first thing on Hilters mind: Defense of the Fatherland. His arrogance made his decisions just flat our stupid. His final orders to destroy Paris and even all railyards in Germany really showed how selfish he was at heart. When his whole campaign was for the restoration and empowerment of Germany yet his final months really showed he cared more about power than he ever cared about Germany and the well being of its people. Maybe he was driven to these actions out of insanity once Germanys loss was but writing on the wall.

It seems like every stupid decision he made from a leadership role, was based on pride and anger. He clearly was not capable of managing his emotions for the better of Germanys. It seems to me like leaders should be able to set aside fervent emotions and make decisions based on logic. Hitler certainly proved himself incapable of that.

@timerover51:

@Obergruppenfuhrer:

Thanks! I think it’s the romantic nature of the war.

Any one who regards war as romantic, has an extremely adolescent view of war, and needs to do a lot more reading about war.  War in not in the least romantic.

I think your service makes you a little sensitive on the subject sir, with all due respect. I have not read the books you mentioned about the South Pacific but I know of it’s horror. I have read Bob Johnsons book. He didn’t kill that pilot in “cold blood”. He did it becuase the pilot was so highly skilled in the dog fight, even against Robert Johnsons superior plane. Bob knew that once that pilot hit the ground with his chute open, he would be back in the air, killing pilots that weren’t as good as Bob.

Surely you can even see the logic in that. It did make me sad to read that. War is a horror that I can only imagine with sick stomach, having not been in one. I am very “adolescent” in the manner I write, feel and describe things that I find beauty in.

I find beauty in courage and self sacrafice. You’ve read plenty of those accounts in his books I’m sure. That is romantic to me. Self Sacrafice and courage in the most ugly situation the world could give you. (I don’t think the same about suicide bombers or even Kamakazi pilots) I do find courage in a fock wulf ramming a B-17 when he’s out of ammunition or damaged and would rather give his life than see those bombs fall on his home towns killing many more people than him and the crew of that bomber.

Many people in this forum find an agreement with me on this subject. For you, it must be something you either don’t agree with or hits far too close to home. I could understand that. I haven’t served my country. You have.

You don’t strike me as the poet, desperate romantic type. Rather, a disciplined man with wisdom and experience. I could be wrong. Well, as much as you may dislike types like me who search desperately for shreds of beauty among horrors, it’s simply a matter of perspective. I think the atrocities of the war are sickening as I’m sure you do. I’m a creative writer who tries to see a few beautiful trees in a forest full of dead ones. Perhaps you just see all the dead ones.

Regardless; I respect your opinions and facts you bring to these discussions. I’d apprectiate it if you would stop pulling rank and trying to belittle a young man like myself who has nothing but respect for people that serve our country.

@Imperious:

The British Centurion and the US Pershing clearly brought the Allies up to par with the Germans.

yes on par with the Germans after they surrendered. They were not used against Germany coming in very late when the war was decided, while Germany had tiger I in the mid war period.

German tanks were better than all allied counterparts except T34/76 because only German tanks required too many parts and even one tank of the same model had different part than another, so they were always in need of spare parts, while the Soviet t-34 was like  comparatively fewer parts and interchangeable. ON the battlefield the Germans always exacted more loses and punishment upon the enemy than they received in return.

Germany had jet power and could have had it earlier had Hitler not re-designated Me-262 as a tactical bomber rather than a pure interceptor.

Germany was ahead in Nuclear fission, but Hitler as usual stopped research when they had the lead and lost it. It was theirs to develop or let others pass them up. But they had the knowledge.

Germany also developed primitive radar latter , but radar was a defensive weapon and Hitler would have no part on it.

Under all aircraft types and rockets no nation was Germany equal, unless perhaps gliders are included.

The walter U-boat was superior to any other allied submarine and was faster than even some allied destroyers submerged.

as i remember the Allies copied German technology after the war and not the other way around.

Actually Imperious Leader, not to challenge your wealth of knowledge but Hitler saw the Me-262 as a bomber and wanted it specified for that primary purpose. The people at Messerchmitt knew it was best suited for a fighter role so they secretly made adjustments in it’s design as to show Hitler in demonstration that it must be used as a fighter. A pretty thing to do behind his back, but they knew it’s power. It could bring down a fortress in a single burst. If the 262 would have been specified for a primary role as a fighter much earlier and mass produced, it would have cost the Allies immensly in the air war.

Unfortunately, they never really did solve all the kinks in the engine. Although plenty of jets flew sorties without difficulty, reoccuring problems with engine stalls and failure plauged it’s reliability. To this day, there aren’t (to MY knowledge) a single flyable 262 with the EXACT engine they were using. It’s too dangerous to pilots. I know of one that is being restored with modern jet engines in place of the original ones.

So it could be argued that if they had that fighter in mass production much ealier they may have had air supperiority. However, it was a technological breakthrough that was just a few years out of reach for the Reich in terms of all the kinks being worked out.

@Petrucci08:

Looks like someone’s been hanging around the making history site  :-D

Hilarious!!

That makes me sick. Information over justice. I can’t stand what the Japenese did to our POW’s in WWII. I understand why my grandma feels the way she does about them. (She’s suffering from alzheimer’s and dementia now) but when I was a younger I remember her visiting us in Orange County and having some anit-japenese sentiments and I didn’t understand it. She would tell me: “I can never forget what the way they treated our boys over in the Pacific”

Now I can understand how someone would feel that way. So TIMEOVER51, will you tell me again about your mission to find that PT-109? I’m really interested in the history of that. Tell us a story! Please?….

Very well put Timeover51. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge you bring to these discussions.

@Rakeman:

@cyan:

@Yahoshua:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29th_Waffen-Grenadier_Division_der_SS_(1st_Russian)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Division_Totenkopf

Also take into account that the entire organisation was declared a criiminal organisation by the International Military Tribunal during the Nuremburg Trials. There’s more than enough blood on the hands of the SS to paint the whole damn lot with the same brush.

thank you. some one with some sense. all nazzi’s are evil. anyone who commits or supports genocide is evil. communist russia was 200 times better than germany. the still wouldn’t be able to take over such a large country.

You um, do know that, the Communists under Stalin killed much more civilians in mass murder and extermination purges than the Nazis ever could have killed?  A modest estimate puts the death toll at 20 million, but estimates range from 12 million to 40 million it seems.  Yet, “all Nazis are evil” but Communist Russia ain’t so bad.  Makes perfect sense… since the victors write history.

That is very insightful Rakeman. My opinion exactly. “All Nazis are evil” is a sweeping and uneducated generalization. The Nuremburg trials were successful at giving justice to many Nazis that were absolute monsters however the rest was a witchhunt. They put to death military commanders who were no where near the death camps. Just generals of the Weirmacht that thought they were doing the right thing by serving their country.

It should also be known that the Weirmacht were disgusted with the atrocities they knew about. They actually filled grievances that went to Hitler himself. They filled report after report of violations of Human rights and unethical and criminal behavior. Soon Hitler grew so angry he replaced the Weirmacht General with an SS one who the complaints went directly to so they could be torn up.

Early on in the war, some of the the SS Honour Brigades that knew about the atrocities commited by the Einzatsgruppen were secretly leaking information to Jews in Germany to warn them they probably needed to flee immediately.

The Luftwaffe were not war criminals and most of them had no knowledge of the camps. They were simply pilots defending their country. So you call them Nazis and therefore, criminals. An uneducated sweeping generalization.

It sould also be noted that their was only one news source in the Reich. A certain camp was liberated by the US. The mayor and his wife of a nearby town hung themselves because they could not believe murder was happening so close to their home and they had no idea.

This is a great example of how close these camps were in certain cases, to other military units and civilians and their being no knowledge of what was going on. I don’t believe in “guilt by association” in these cases. Men were drafted into the military and were fighting a war. That is not a crime. What the Einzatsgruppen units did was a crime. What SOME of the SS units did were war crimes.

I have yet to know what Goerrings charges were at the Trials of Nuremburg. He was the Luftwaffe leader and had no part in the holocaust. His men commited no crimes other than flying planes against the Allies. My theory is, he was sentanced to death because he stould up for hitler in court. He could not believe that Hitler would have ordered “The Final Solution.” He simply could not believe it and he told the courts that he believed it was done without Hitlers knowledge. He was working with the Allies to help smooth things over when Germany surrendered. His death sentance has no legitimate charge other than being a high ranking Nazi officer. He should have been charged as an art theif. Which should not warrant an execution.

I HATE how the Russians “labor camps” (ie: concentration camps) and all their horrific atrocities are completely overlooked because they were our allies. Anyone that says “All Nazis are evil” is completely uneducated on the 3rd Reich. It’s not that simple. Why don’t to just call all black people the “N word” becuase of the violence black gangs are guilty of?

Get your history down and read all sides. Find the truth and stop making predjudice remarks about anyone affilated with the Nazis (IE: AMOST EVERY GERMAN) After all, doesn’t that make you as predjudice some of them were?

@timerover51:

Obergruppenfuhr, I do not recall saying anything about Patton, or his drive to the Rhine.  For that, I would recommend that you read the US Army history, Logistic Support of the Armies, vol. 1, which covers the invasion of Europe, breakout, and drive to the Rhine.

Although this may shock you, I was a US Army Quartermaster, i.e. supply, officer, and one of those odd individuals that enjoy studying logistics.  One of the major reasons for the failure of Barbarosa was the breakdown of the logisitcs supply flow from Germany to the front, and Rommel’s failure in North Africa was directly related to a failure to understand logistics.  I would recommend that you read Supplying War, by Martin Van Creveld, to get a better understanding of the problems involved.  If you wish, I would be more than happy to post extended quotes from the book.  They would not reflect well on the German High Command at all.  As for the comment “The most brilliant Generals in History have been involved in the highest, most meticulous degree in every aspect of their soldiers well being and strategies. Logistics wins wars. Look up what “logistics” means in the dictionary.”  I fully agree that logistics win wars.  The Germans lost both WW1 and WW2.  The German General Staff in WW2 clearly would not quaiify as the most brilliant in history.

Rommel was a brilliand tactician, questionable as a strategist, and hopeless when it came to logistics.  He was repeatedly told NOT TO ADVANCE beyond the Gulf of Sirte, where he could be adequately supplied.  Advancing further east compounded supplying him immensely.  Driving all the way to El Alamein was utter insanity from a logistical standpoint.  He simply could not be supported with the resources available from Italy and Germany.  Rommel refused to accept that.  He lost.

As for the comment that the Germans has the 2nd best logistics system after the US, I would beg to differ with that.  After the US, the British had the best supply system, with the Germans a distant third.  As for the Japanese, they were hopeless when it came to supply.  I do not regard the Japanese General Staff and army high command as even competent amateurs in WW2 when it comes to the area of logistics.

The following is a quote of a dispatch from General Sato, commander of the Japanese 31st Infantry Division following the collapse of the Imphal Offensive in 1944:  “The tactical ability of the Fifthteenth Army staff lies below that of cadets.”  That sums it up very neatly with respect to Japan.

As for Mussolini’s desire for an African Empire, he had that already in Libya and Ethiopia, and large numbers of Italian colonists were in Libya prior to WW2.  The Cyrenaiaca Plateau is actually capable of considerable agricultural production.  The problem was that the British were devastatingly successful with their 1940 desert offensive, and if they had driven to Tripoli, as they could have had not troops been diverted to Greece, and if they had the time to build up their supply lines, the events of 1943 with Mussolini being forced from power would have occurred a couple of years earlier.  With North Africa cleared of Italian troops, the British would have been in far better shape to reinforce the Far East, and in much better position to try to persuade French North Africa to side with De Gualle.  Hitler  was forced to send German troops to bolster the Italians.  Malta resupply would have been far easier, with the convoys coming from Alexandria.  Malta as a bomber base would have been very much a problem to the Italians, far more than it was.  The number of troops deployed under Rommel would not have made a major difference in the outcome of Barbarosa.

I have no doubt whatsoever that this will be highly offensive to some people in the forum. However, if you differ, I would ask that you supply your sources to support your arguments.  I am more than happy to post mine.

Imperious Leader, I would agree with your statement up to a point.  The war slipped away from Germany in 1942, with the invasion of North Africa and the destruction of the Sixth Army at Stalingrad.  After May of 1943, with the defeat of the German submarine force, the only question was how long with Germany hold out.  Also, it would be helpful if everyone remembered that the Atomic Bomb was intended to be used on Germany, with the primary targets the synthetic oil plants and the Ruhr industrial area.  The Rumanian oil fields were lost to Germany in August of 1944, with the advance of the Russians into the Balkans.

You continually bring the entire world into this question of “logistics” to prove your point with a hundred sources much like a far left liberal debates. Quote all the variables you want. My statement was that Germany had “Some of the most brilliant strategists in all of Europe.” Europe. Not the whole world. Not Japan. Not the US. That was my point. I could site at least 6 different offcers ranking from Obergruppenfuhrer and up that were absolutely brilliant in the german military. Pride was their downfall. They DID lose for reasons I’ve discussed at length in the Leningrad poll in the Minatures discussion forum, and for reasons you’ve discussed. It started from the very first mistakes made after the death of Walter Weaver. I’m not offended at all by your participation and have a great deal of respect for anyone that has or is serving our country. So if you read my quote, there is nothing to argue there. Brining in any other nation has nothing to do with my quote regarding “Strategists in Europe”.

Your list of fun facts is amusing but I know for a fact at least one or two of them is not true. It’s 3am and I’m too tired to go get the sources on your “in bombing range of new york” theory and from my SS archives. “In theory.” If hitler could have done any significant damage to New York, he would have in his rage just like he did to England after the first bombs fell on Berlin causing no real serious damage. Appropriate retaliation against civilian populations opposing The Reich was ALWAYS “worth it”  to Hitler. No matter how stupid the outcome. Look at Leningrad. He besieged the city just out of spite when they could have taken it.

@timerover51:

@Obergruppenfuhrer:

@timerover51:

I cannot vote, but I suspect that following the failure of Sea Lion, sometime in October or November of 1940, Hitler is shot, and the Germans start frantically negotiating with the British to clear their backs before the Russians attack.

Yeah that would have been nice if he were shot but Goerring was next in command. Uh. That fat a** was SO lazy. Now if Rommel took full power, the whole Riech would have been a different place to live that didn’t persecute anyone. One of the main problems the Nazis always had was no central leadership militarily speaking. So Hilter (for instace) would settle arguments with Weirmacht and SS High Command by making extremely some poor decision. Then to make matters worse, he would continue to meddle with the battle plans instead of trusting some of the most brilliant strategists in all of Europe.

Hmm, “most brilliant strategists in all of Europe”.  You might try reading the Germans own assessment of their strategy in Germany’s Campaign in Russia, 1940-42, Planning and Operations.  The Germans THOUGHT that they were the most brilliant strategists in Europe.  When it came to logistics, they were rank amateurs.  Amateurs worry about tactics and strategy, professionals worry about logistics. They were a bit better with respects to logistics than the Japanese, but that is not saying much at all.

“When it came to logistics, they were rank amateurs.  Amateurs worry about tactics and strategy, professionals worry about logistics”

I’m sorry but I really can’t see where this guy is coming from with this argument. General Patton was a MASTER of logistics. In fact, he planned many of his attacks and key positions around the resupply and mechanized brilliance of his army. He was involved in logistics in EVERY aspect. That’s why his advancement through the Rhine was so brilliant. All logistics. It’s brilliant leaders that are able to delegate only jobs that don’t effect their strategic initiative. Patton was one of those men. I don’t know how he was able to multi-task so many different thing.

My theory is this: The most brilliant Generals in History have been involved in the highest, most meticulous degree in every aspect of their soldiers well being and strategies. Logistics wins wars. Look up what “logistics” means in the dictionary.

As I’ve said and will say it again, the Weirmacht and SS’s lack of having one head general on each front caused their problems with disorganization.

To go even further, Rommel was involved right down to the “logistics” of rations getting to his men and in what amounts. He even designed all the metal obstacles on the beaches of Normandy, and was involved with having them made and placed. This is what caused such high casualties as the American soldiers were forced to land first to clear these obstacles so our armor could land. Hitler denied him tank reinforcemnts from Germany that would have cost us on an even more catastrophic level.

When in the dessert with thousands of British POW’s. He cut his own soldiers rations in half so the POW’s could live comfortably. He even tore up Hitlers orders to execute any Jew taken as a POW. That’s a little off the topic but I love that man.

In closing: I really have no idea where "Timeover51’s argument has any ground whatsoever.

@balungaloaf:

germany reached its full potential in 1943.

it invaded in 41.  and if it took ALL of its forces east b/c it wasnt at war with US, UK, and european nations, it would have smashed right into moscow.

people would have given up on the soviet government.  its not like the gov’t ever did anything good to the soviet people.

I completely agree. They were at Moscows door even with valuable resources being pulled west in defense of the Father Land. All they had to do was take that Soviet Government down and the rest would have been easy. Most towns in the beginning, looked at the SS brigades as liberators. In fact it was grateful Russian citizens who showed the Luftwaffe how to mix oil to get proper visocity when it was 60 below and they taught them about liting small gasoline fires under the engines in that weather so they would start. The Russian government and especaillly Stalin himself, had been so horrific, that their may have been a civlian uprising once Moscow was taken.

OK Time out guys. I finally got to play last night and I won! It was like the revolutionary war though. My entire German battalions got the bad end of the board with no cover so we were just slaughtered advancing on the Americans. Before finally being killed by a line of artillery, my Brumbar Tank did manage to bombard the entire objective area, clearing it promply of all anti-tank units with special cover rolls.

ANYWAYS. Quesiont about those Barr Gunners. It says if they attack “any soldier” then that unit cant’ fire back. Does that include officers with special abilities?