Posts made by Narvik

This really should be National Tactical Advantages that comes from hundred years of military traditions. But when I read through the threads here, the majority of Advantages seems to be weapons developments, terrain and weather. USA were not the only nation with Paratroops, and Russia were not the only with Trains. So here comes my favorite list.

Do mind that the cost, movement and combat value of the units stay the same, as OOB. A Tactical Advantage is how the military leaders of that nation used the units.

GERMANY

1. PanzerShock. Each German Tank absorb, or negate one hit, this means it takes two hits to kill a German Tank.
The reason is German Panzerdivisions attacked as shockwaves at the weak point at the enemy line, breakthrough it, cut the supply and made the enemy surrender. This way of attacking produced less casualties than the infantry and artillery meat grinder, so every Tank save German lives.

2. PanzerBlitz. German Tanks can double-move, both during combat and non-combat movement.
2a. German Tanks that were not used so far, can Blitz through newly captured territory, and undefended enemy territory, and resolve combat in the next territory.
2b. German Tanks that moved into an adjacent territory and resolved combat there, can retreat into any adjacent friendly territory during non-combat move.
This is the historical correct way that German Panzer divisons were used. No other nations would do the same. All other nations would use Tanks as slow infantry support weapons.

RUSSIA

1. Scorched Earth.
1a. When you take a Russian territory, all facilities are destroyed and removed from map. Put a damage token to cover the IPC value, the conquer can not collect income from this territory before he have payed 1 IPC to remove the Damage-token in his next Phurchase and Repair phase.
This is Russian military tradition from hundreds of years back, and no other nations, not even Germany, did this on a large scale.
1b. Russian defending units that survived the first round of attack, can retreat to any adjacent friendly territory that is not under attack.
This too is a typical traditional Russian way of warfare, trade land for time.

2. Partisans. During Mobilize Units phase, Russia can place one single infantry on territories without factories. Even occupied Russian territories that are not protected by enemy units.
This happened all the time in Russia, but nowhere else.

UK…
…is now recognized as a great Sea Power with supreme sailors.

1. Defending UK ships can retreat from a seazone when enemy naval units combat move into it, and before combat is resolved. Enemy aircrafts abort this retreat.
The Brits did in fact decode the Enigma, were masters in espionage, and the worlds best sailors since Nelson

2. Defending UK Infantry can retreat into an adjacent seazone that have one or more Trannies. The trannies cargo limit is still in force.
The Brits did in fact evacuate infantry  from shore to Trannies several times, Dunkirk, Greece, Crete etc

JAPAN.

1. Kamikaze. Japan is the only player with an exclusive National Advantage rule in every edition of the A&A games.

USA…
…great economy and worlds largest Airforce

1. Lend and Lease. USA can give money to other nations like Russia and UK, or France if it survives long enough.
a. Place a Convoy unit (buy at HBG), at a seazone in the North Atlantic, and as long this is not sunk by Germany, USA can give a friend like 3 or 5 IPC for every Convoy that are afloat during that players collect income phase. This rule need to some more work.

b. Place a Resource Token (buy at HBG) on a US Tranny, and move it to a territory that belong to the receiver. If it makes it, the receiver turn the token into IPCs

2. Carpet Bombing.
During the SBR phase, US Heavy Bombers can do one round of Carpet bombing against land units.

The sequence.
1. Move Bombers, Tacs and escort fighters into the contested territory.
Defender commit intercepting fighters

2. One round of air-to-air dogfight.
All attacking planes roll 1 as a hit, defending fighters roll 2 or less as hit.

3. Surviving Bombers and Tacs choose to SBR factories, Ports or airfields. So far OOB. US Bombers can also choose to Carpet Bomb land units.
Facilities roll AA fire to the planes, and if it is an AA-gun unit present, it too fire against the Bombers that are Carpeting.

4. The bombers roll for facility damage OOB, and the carpet Bombers roll to kill land units. Every Carpet bomber roll 2 dice, each 2 or less is a hit, and the casualties are removed, and since this is preemptive fire, before the attacking land units have moved into the territory, the casualties can not return fire. But, like when Battleships do Shore Bombardment, every Bomber need a matching attacking land unit to do the Carpet bombing.

Only USA had large enough and many enough Heavy Bombers to do Carpet Bombing, so this is an exclusive USA National Advantage

No, its not more rules, but it is more boring non-combat and unnecessary moving and administration of units that are better modeled by convoy boxes

@knp7765:

Back in 1936, when the Germans remilitarized the Rhineland, it was said that if France and Britain had objected in force and sent troops to enforce the demilitarization, there was a very real possibility that Hitler would have lost face to such a degree that he would have committed suicide.

But of course, Britain and France did nothing which simply boosted Hitler’s ego and started solidifying his position as Fuhrer.

Did nothing ? Now that is blatantly wrong, man. UK and USA did a lot. They exploited the opportunity and helped Hitler grow strong. In 1936, Stalin and the commies was still enemy nr. One, and don’t forget that UK and USA had troops fighting on the Russian ground during the Revolution War. Stalin had promised to destroy all Capitalist nations, including UK and USA. Then Hitler wrote a book, Mein Kampf, where he promised to destroy Sovjet Union and communism. Even France would support this. So, the Set-up was to build a strong rightwing Germany as a buffer to Sovjet Union.

This was not a bad idea, but then something went horrible wrong. Suddenly one day, out of the blue, surprise surprise, Hitler and Stalin become friends and allies, and divided Europe between them. This was clearly a blatant deal-breaker, the Western Allies had been outsmarted and backstabbed. It was a game changer.

@Baron:

The missing part is about Naval combat with planes.
1 Carrier will put on board 2 TcBs for A6 D8 (same as 2 OOB Fg units)
2 Fgs are very weak A4 D6 (2*1 Fg A2 D3).

Carrier operations and naval combat already better in defensive and they now lose offensive power.
Now the offensive capacity of 2 Fgs (A4 D6) or 2 TcBs (A6 D8) or 1 Fg +1 TcB (A5 D7) is weaker than OOB 1 Fg + 1 TcB (A7 D7).

Yes, but the Carrier group was in fact stronger on defense. Lets say a given plane has so much firepower. When attacking, this plane spent most of the time flying to the target. When defending, this plane spent most of the time in the combat zone. One to one, and with equal firepower, both fighters and Tacs are stronger on defense

And exactly what case in history make you think carrier based fighters should be so strong in naval battles ? In fact, they were not.

@Baron:

Because of this, I think TcB should get D1 in air phase also (still 3 times lower than Fg D3).

Please tell me about just one documented case where Stukas scrambled to intercept Lancasters or Flying Fortresses on bombing raids, and I will be happy to edit my house rules

@Baron:

Heavy bomber move is too much, just keep it at 7 spaces +1 with Airbase.

You are correct, and I edited it. If we compare the range of real WWII planes with the size of A&A territories and seazones, then I figure that single engine fighters and Tacs can combat move 2 spaces, double engine fighters, Tacs and Medium Bombers can combat move 4 spaces, and 4 engine Heavy Bombers can combat move 3 spaces. This is historical correct. Of course this should be doubled in non-combat moving. But the fact is that in 1944 the average Allied fighter had a operative range that barely let it cross the English Channel from Dover to Calais, and return, and if you look at a map, that is not a very long distance. The only single engine fighter with long range were the Mustang, and that was an exception.

@Baron:

.
I like the carpet bombing roll @2.
No retaliation seems a bit overpowered.

But, there is retaliation, or what do you think the AA fire is ?

I really want a set of house rules that makes this game as close to historical correctness as possible. Just before the Normandy landings, Heavy bombers carpet bombed Normandy. This bombing would last one day only. After the soldiers had moved into Normandy, there were no more carpet bombing in that territory, and the Bombers would continue to SBR facilities in Germany as usual. Only fighters and Tacs  did deliver fire that were accurate enough to give close support to the land units, and this land battles would go on for months. Then, after Normandy was occupied, then the Heavy Bombers were called in again, to carpet bomb the next territory, in Operation Cobra. This is what I want to see in my house rules.

And no, I don’t think it is overpowered. Remember that every Bomber need a matching land unit that is attacking that territory, just like the Battleship shore bombard. Every bomber is also exposed to AA-fire before they can even start their mission. And the carpet bombing, like the SBR of facilities, is one round only. You will need pretty many Bombers to make a difference. And they wont make any difference in the great decisive battles like the Battle of Moscow. Now if Russia lose 6 inf to carpet bombing, and must defend with 123 units and not 129 units, is that a game breaker ? Don’t think so either……

@EnoughSaid:

I feel like I just learned a new language in 10 minutes.

Lol, me too :-) I figure he is a Canadian

To wrap it up

Fighter cost 8, att 2, def 3, move 2, can scramble, intercept and escort bombers, land on carriers and newly captured territory.
Tac bomber cost 10, att 3, def 4, move 2, land on carriers, SBR Ports and Airfields
Medium Bomber cost 12, att 2+2, def 0, move 4, SBR all facilities with two dice
Heavy bomber cost 15, att 2+2+2, def 0, move 6, SBR all facilities with three dice

Medium Bombers are the ones with 2 engines, like the German bomber. Heavy Bombers are the ones with 4 engines, like the USA and UK bombers. HBG are making so much bombers now, that we have no problems to support any nation with the 4 different types of aircrafts.

NAVAL COMBAT
1. Subs first strike, only negated by destroyers on a 1 to 1 basis
2. All ships and aircrafts roll dice simultaneously as OOB, and owner choose casualties
As OOB, except subs cant sink other subs, and destroyers negate subs on a 1-to-1 basis

If one side have only subs, and the other side have only aircrafts, then one plane will force all subs in that seazone to submerge. For game purpose, a sub that move into a seazone or convoy box with a scrambled plane only (no warships), must submerge and end the move there.

AIR COMBAT

1. One round only of Air-to-air dogfight
Escort figthers att at 2, intercepting fighters def at 3.
All types of attacking Bombers roll 1 in the dogfight. Def Bombers roll 0

2. Surviving attacking Bombers commit to SBR a facility or Carpet bomb land units.

2a. One round only of SBR. Facility AA-fire to Bombers. Remove casualties.
Tacs roll 1 dice, Medium rolls 2 dice, Heavies roll 3 dice, every eye is one damage point, as OOB.

2b. One round only of preemptive carpet bombing. Present AA units roll AA-fire to bombers. Remove casualties.

Medium bombers carpet bomb with two dice, 2+2 is hits
Heavy bombers carpet bomb with 3 dice, 2+2+2 is hits

A Bomber need a matching land unit when carpet bombing, like the Battleship do when shore bombarding
Casualties are removed from play, they cant defend.

AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT as OOB

LAND COMBAT
1. One round of AA-fire to attacking Fighters and Tacs. Remove casualties.

2.Land units roll as OOB.
Fighters strafe land units, Att 2 or Def 3
Tacs strafe land units, Att 3 or Def 4
Attacking Tanks is boosted +1 with a matching Fighter or Tac

Attacker press continue or retreat, as in OOB

@pfc_pander:

Just saw Fury also.  I give it a 8 out of 10.  I wonder if we killed as many Nazi’s in during the war by hip firing as they did in the movie.  Great tank battle though.

The statistics of casualties from WWII says that 60 % were killed or wounded by artillery shells. 10 % by Tanks, and 10 % by aircrafts. 20 % were killed by infantry weapons, but I don’t remember the exact numbers. Machinegun fire killed more men than minefields. Hip firing with sub-machine guns was a typical close combat weapon to use in towns and cities. The same with hand grenades, bayonets, fieldspade and battle axe. Sniper rifles took some % too. I figure less than 5 % were killed by hip firing in the real war, but in Hollywood movies maybe 80 %. Looks cool though…… Kids love it

I would love to see this work, but I believe it need to be simplified.

With the Classic edition, you could wrote 4 Inf Ukr > Cau + 2 Tanks E.Eur > Cau and that would work. But with the complexity of Global 40, it will bug down the game.

It can work if you wrote Army Pol > Bel as the combat move, and commit units when you resolve combat. Lets say you got 8 inf, 3 mech, 2 art, 3 tanks and 5 fighters in Poland, and this count as the Army you got in Poland. You short it down to Army Pol when you wrote the plotting. But when it comes to resolving the battle in Belorussia, you don’t need to commit everything you moved in from Poland, just the units you want. Same with ships, everything you got floating in seazone 110 is Fleet 110. So then you can write F 110 > 111 > 112 and this means your ships sail from 110 to 112.

It can be some arguing if two players are attacking each other in the same place at the same time, like a German army in Pol is attacking Belo simultaneously with a Russian army in Belo is attacking Pol. Will this battle be resolved on the borderline ? I cant remember any battle of WWII where to armies were attacking at the same time. Usually one was defending and the other attacking. The only rational way to solve this issue, is a bid. The part that are willing to pay the most IPC win the right to attack. The other must defend.

Ex
Germany - A Pol > Belo, 5 IPC
Russia - A Belo > Pol, 2 IPC
In this case Germany pay 5 IPC and attack Belorussia, and Russia defend, but don’t have to pay anything.

Imagine the IPC bid are huge stacks of supply, and the part that invest most into supply is the one that is ready to attack first. In the real war, an attacking army would need 7 times more supply than a defending army, so this model the real conditions in a historical correct way.

Yes, I think the cost of 8 IPC is wrong for a A4 D4 take two hits to kill unit. It will turn the fighter obsolete in territory defense for sure. Who will pay 10 IPC for a unit that is not allowed to land in newly captured territories, when you can pay 8 for a unit that defend on 4 and even take two hits to kill

@EnoughSaid:

Narvik, thanks for your input! Unfortunately I can’t seem to find this Plottet variant. I’m very interested. Could you post a link, please?

The file is for members only, so you need to register and log in at Boardgamegeek.

http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/57257/plottet

try this link

If you go to Boardgamegeek and look under the A&A Classic edition, there is a variant named Plottet A&A, copyrighted by Greg Turner, and it have exactly the rules that you are discussing over here. The file even have notepads that you can print out, makes the plotting phase go faster. But you should keep in mind, it was made for the Classic edition that had only two land units, Tanks and infantry, and no destroyer.
You could write 4 Inf, 2 Tanks to Ukr, from Ge.
But used in Global 40, with so many units, and so many spaces to move, and 8 players, well….enough said

But at Harrisgamedesign, the guy that invented A&A, it was a discussion about a semi-simultaneous mechanic a few years ago, that looked promising and simple to resolve.

Each player wrote down their combat moves, and how much IPC they are willing to pay to make it happen. If its a tie, roll a dice.
Ex
German army in Poland want to attack Balticum and pay 5 IPC to do so.
Russian army in Balticum want to attack Poland and pay 2 IPC to do so.
Germany won the bid, pays 5 IPC and do the attack.
With this system, the combat will be resolved in the OOB way, with an attacker and a defender.

@iwugrad:

.  So another possibility could be that Germany could decide whether to take Italians, Japanese, or Germans as casualties in a joint operation and Russia could decide whether to take their own or their ally. Â

this is exactly the same problem as you get when you attack a territory or seazone with defenders from several nations. Best way to solve is let Germany and Italy be played by the same person, and USA, France and UK by the same person. Unless you really want a 8 player game.

@Black_Elk:

I think the way to approach this is for all players to resolve their moves in secret (independently of the enemy side) and then all reveal their moves at once.

I love to play Diplomacy, and it use this system. It work because you can only have one unit in a territory at the same time. Using this system in A&A have been playtestet many times, they nicknamed it #Write an Essay# and it is complicated. If you look up the MB Classic at BBG, you will find some house rules using this system. If you buy A&A Guadalcanal, it has an optional naval rule using this system. Both players wrote down on paper the naval moves, and then try to resolve it. The fans turned it down, and that was the easy edition with two player, imagine 8 players writing down moves for hundreds of units. Be my guest

I agree with knp77, Liners should take infantry only. Too much trouble to carry a Tank down the stairs.

I read about this topic some years ago. An infantry division would need more space than an armored division. An inf div have more men. Also, the 1000 horses and tons of hay of an infantry div take lots of more space than the 200 trucks and fuel of an armored div. And that is the reason for that USA in the real war sent so many motorized and mechanized divisions to Europe, they took less space on the trannies. And in the Pacific, the Marine units did not need horses, they got supply directly from the ships.

I read on the Designers forum some years ago, the reason a tranny take one inf and one other land unit, is the designer was afraid that the USA player would stop buying infantry if a tranny could take two Tanks. So, the rational was playability, not historical facts.

About the doubblehits. Bismarck took 800 hits from guns and torpedos and still did not sink, the crew had to open the bottom valves. Tirpitz got bombed and torpedoed many times, and after the last bombing she was so damaged they cut her up for scrap metal, but she never sank. This are the true battleships. As mentioned above, Lusitiana sank by one torpedo, and even Titanic sank by one iceberg. Liners are not unsinkable.

I think that some nations should start with a few liners, since they in fact were confiscated at the beginning of the war. No liners was build during the war.

USA, UK and Ge start with liners. Move 2, carry 3 units, infantry only, debark into friendly territory and during non-combat move only, sink by one hit

I believe the two hits in attack are to model the Panzer attack where Tanks breakthrough the line as a shock wave, surround the enemy and cut the supply line, and make the defending enemy surrender. This way of maneuver warfare would give less casualties to the attacker, compared to the classic infantry charge and artillery barrage, which was a real meat grinder to the attacker.

But when that is said, dug in Tiger tanks defending were in fact hard targets, they were bunkers on wheels with a big gun, so maybe the two hits should be when defending too ?

My experience with house rules are that some people have difficult to accept new abilities to classic units. So maybe the only way is to introduce new units, and keep the old ones at the current system. In that case, the current Tank cost 6, A3 D3 move 2 and Blitz. Then a new heavy Tank cost 8, A4 D4 move 2 and take two hits to kill. This make sense

Next issue.
No Flash, I don’t think Tanks that just were in combat in the first territory got enough power to continue into next territory and keep on fighting. Most of them would have broke down and need to spend some time in the workshop to be fit for next battle. They could need to change tracks for sure. Refuel. Reload. etc.

In the real war, the battle would start with infantry and artillery that engaged the defenders, and make them stuck in combat. Then, when the weak spot was identified, fresh Panzer units that had been kept in reserve, would smash trough as a shock wave and take the fight to the next territory. That is how I imagine it.
Bottom line, Tanks and Mechs that were not used so far, can blitz through newly captured territory and attack the next one. Smooth and don’t violate the classic A&A engine too much.

@crusaderiv:

Netherland and Belgium are together? Not seperated?

Of course, a playable map cant have too many small territories

@Flashman:

The basic movement values of land units should be wrecked, because it is nonesense.

All thse units moved at the same rate - that of the trains carry them. When they detrained, it probably took the tanks longer to reach the front than the infantry as they’d have to be offloaded, reassembled (too big to ride trains assembled), fueled and maintainanced; the PBI could jump off trains and march strait to the battle zone. As I said, armoured units can be given an extra breakthrough move after combat to balance the loss of movement points inherant in their cost. Although, frankly, I’ve always considered MI a unit too many, while you can do many things to make tanks more powerful.

I totally agree with the unlimited non combat movement for land units.

Let Tanks absorb two hits like it do with the 1914 rules.
Let Tanks blitz through newly captured territories.

Ex. 4 inf, 1 art, 4 Tanks and 2 Mech start in territory A.
The 4 inf and 1 art capture territory B.
The 4 Tanks and 2 Mechs blitz through newly captured territory B and combat move into territory C.
No more need for another player as can opener. This will be historical correct blitzkrieg.