@mantlefan:
Thanks for trying to put forth an analysis (although it is still to general to be of real value; I’m not trying to slight you, that’s just how it is; we can’t examine alternatives to moves in important situations unless we have the whole picture),
Am I reading this right? You are now saying that what you’ve been asking for is actually impossible? That you’re demanding proof and yet not going to actually accept what you’re asking for? Or are you just asking for an unnecessary level of detail?
I’m saying, in my outline, that the US is parked in the Carolines by US 3. They have done this with a fleet that Japan is not capable of dislodging if Japan has followed any of their relatively common openings. While it is true that other stuff is happening on the board, Japan’s game is being won or lost right here. They can coast a bit on the mainland once they have lost the seas, but their time is limited. They certainly can’t win on the Pacific map, because they need Sydney or Honolulu and they don’t have naval superiority.
Japan in the first three turns has done typical stuff. They advance in China, lose Yunnan on China 1, retake and hold it on J 2, and generally crawl forward. They buy transports on the first turn and generally launch on the Philippines/DEI on J 2. Early on in our games, J 2 was a positioning turn to maintain the Japanese peace NO for another round, but it’s too slow when the US hits the Carolines in round 3. Japan never even got out of the gate when they didn’t start grabbing the DEI until the US was already at the Carolines.
@mantlefan:
That puts the burden of proof on her. (I’m not sure if you get into logic at all but this site is helpful if you wnat to have meaningful discussions/debates rather than Jerry Springer)
I know some logic, though I’m no expert. I know enough to know that you’re using this wrong. You can argue that Jen’s specific points require burden of proof, and in the minutiae of her specific solutions you have a point, but in the big picture the extraordinary claim (the game is balanced) is yours.
It is much more likely that a game this complex is still unbalanced. Step one is deciding whether or not the game is balanced. Step two is moving on to proving whether a specific solution is needed and functional. Some people are working on step two, and for any specific solution the burden of proof is on them.
You’re arguing something different: that the game should be assumed to be balanced in Step one. You need proof for that.
@mantlefan:
Allegedly there is some new discovery that proves that USA full pac breaks the game. Why not share the “discovery?” Was it made during games skewed by tech or house rules? Was it skewed by uneven dice? Was it skewed by uneven player skill? Was it made up out of thin air to push a rule change that forces USA to spend IPC in both theatres? IL gets on me for asking questions; well, I have one more: Why are none of these questions being answered?
They are being answered. You just don’t like the answers that you’re getting because you think they’re too vague. The discovery is that the US can go 100% in the Pacific and still get to Europe in time.
Or, if you like, I am making a lesser version of the claim, which is that the US strategy outlined above (first turn build specified, and then just outspend Japan every turn after that) will have Japan on the brink fairly quickly.
@mantlefan:
Jen made a claim that the axis essentially can’t win when USA goes full pac (or at least not win often enough to call the game balanced). How can we test if axis CAN win with this allied strategy in place if we are not clear on what the strat is?
That is the strategy. It’s no one set series of builds, and even if it was that would be more tactics than strategy. The US spends 100% in the Pacific until it is clear that they have broken Japan’s fleet, and until ANZAC and India are safe and capable of reclaiming the DEI, etc. At that point on they start moving on Europe. At least, that’s Jen’s claim. I haven’t tried it myself, but then I haven’t had any trouble bottling up Japan quickly with a lower level of spending. Japan’s income has spiked for, generally, about two turns in our games. That’s it. They lose their economy before they really have a chance to gain anything from it, and even at their peak they’re not making what they’d need to make to achieve parity.
@mantlefan:
With little more information from jen other than the USA goes full pac rds 6-8, does this mean that if I buy 2 US battleships every turn I will win as the USA? Why not? So far according to the information she has given that follows the strat.
I think that Jen, questioneer, and the rest of us are assuming that you aren’t being deliberately obtuse with your gameplay. No, “full 100% Pacific” does not mean you can buy a bunch of transports and sail them out en masse to get sunk by the closest sub. Wage war just as you usually would, but with the entire weight of the US focused on breaking the Japanese fleet and bottling them up on their home island. Once you’ve destroyed their navy, ANZAC and India can clean up the DEI and such.
The whole point is that it doesn’t really matter what Japan does, because they don’t make enough money to stop you. I think you are underestimating how helpless Japan ends up being when the US neglects the Atlantic and falls on them with overwhelming force. You’re looking for details, when the counterargument is that the details are irrelevant.
@mantlefan:
The point is that plenty of people have won and are winning with axis. Just look back in this thread alone.
I have looked. If you’d like to point out a specific example you have in mind, I can show you where I think the game was decided on either (a) fluke dice, or (b) Allied mistake, or ©, you’ll show me an Axis strategy that might really work.
Unfortunately, to your point, there is a large category (d), which are games too vague to really know what happened, but I’ll do the best I can.
@mantlefan:
If you have a strat that is different from hers but also is an auto-win for the allies please post a report of it in action so we can see how it worked as well and see if there’s anything the axis could have done. If the axis had no better options responding to and anticipatiing each allied move then maybe jen is rightand there does exist an unstoppable strategy.
Basically same as above. The strategy has been described at a general level. Have you even tried it?
I can attempt to post a full Pacific battle report from what I remember from my last game, but it will have to wait a week until I get back home. I’m stuck with generic debating until then.
