Posts made by moompix

Control returns to the UK. It gets the income.

See, Liberating a Territory, Page 18 of the rule book

None of the powers consider an attack on Mongolia to be an act of war against them. So, it doesn’t cause any other power to be at war with the power that attacks it.

@Krieghund:

There are a few exceptions, but most combat moves must result in combat.  Those exceptions aside, a transport will not be moving in combat movement unless it’s doing an amphibious assault.  If it is doing so, other ships may move along with it in order to support that assault, whether to fight the preliminary sea battle or to provide supporting bombardment.  If there is a chance of defending air units scrambling, ships and/or planes may move along with the transports in order to deal with that eventuality.

In any case, no land or sea unit may move in both combat and noncombat movement.  Only air units may do that.

So, this means any warship that accompanies a transport to protect it from subs, during the combat move phase, has to end its move in the same sea zone as the transport, and may not move on to another sea zone to participate in a different attack, right?

This won’t tie up a whole fleet though, because you only need to assign one of the surface warships to accompany the transport. The rest of the fleet could make a separate combat move that attacks the sea zone beyond.

Can you make what would normally be a non-combat move with a transport, during the combat move phase, so that it can be accompanied by a surface warship which is making a combat move?

Scenario:
A transport wants to move troops from one friendly territory to another friendly territory, but has to end its move in a sea zone with an enemy sub. A fleet of friendly warships is going to pass through/start in the transport’s sea zone, move through the sub’s sea zone, and then move on to attack an enemy fleet in a sea zone beyond. Can the transport be moved now, so that it doesn’t have to make an unprotected move later?

The answer is no, thanks to Krieghund for answering it before it was even posted. Now that’s quick.

@kcdzim:

However, if the transports original move was a combat move nothing is stopping you from moving that final seazone separate from the transport in noncombat if there was no naval battle in that final zone (or it didn’t bombard).  If you started at a naval base the warship should retain its final movement point through noncombat.  At least, that’s my understanding of movement rules based on interpretations of the physical game and computer movement rules.

~~I say just add accompanying warships to the list of exceptions to the rule about combat moves resulting in actual combat.

If a warship accompanies a transport that is making a combat move, the warship can complete its movement even though it might not result in combat.~~

@Col.:

Consider this scenario: the transport and warship started together in a naval base, and the submarine was in the sea zone next to the naval base.  If the warship and transport move into the sub’s zone together (move 1), move out of the sub’s zone together (move 2), and then split up (move 3), the submarine would get a shot even though they are well out of it’s range?  It simplifies I suppose, but makes little sense.

It makes sense, from a realism perceptive. I know that’s not always relevant in a game this abstract, but anyways. If transports suspect they are in danger of being attacked, they aren’t going to leave port without an escort. In real life, they don’t know for sure that there aren’t subs a few miles away. They aren’t moving at all, until they have some protection. And then once they are moving, they don’t know that the coast is 100% clear now that they left that area back there, they want to be protected until they have arrived at their final destination.

In short if a navy is going to be protecting its transports, it will do it from start to finish, not just in the areas it thinks subs are most likely to be lurking.

The question:
A transport has just moved into a sea zone containing an enemy sub, can the sub make this special attack?

Ignore everything else that is happening, or might happen, and answer the following question. it’s all that matters:

Did the transport start its move, from the very beginning, with a specific surface warship, and will the transport be with that same warship until the transport has stopped moving?

If the answer is yes, the sub can not make the attack, regardless of what else is happening.

If the answer is no, the sub can make the attack, regardless of what else is happening.

A note about Destroyers:

Destroyers don’t have a special power to negate this sub attack, that is different from any other surface warship. (check the list of abilities they counter) They don’t stop it just by simply being in the sea zone with the submarine.

WILD BILL Wrote: (my responses in blue)

Scenario: You have a DD at a naval base sz#1 (gets 3 moves) There is a tpt in the sz#2 next to it (no NB gets 2 moves). You move the DD 1 space into sz #2 (paired up DD & tpt). You now move both DD & tpt 1 space into sz #3 that has 1 enemy sub.

Things you can do at this time to avoid the sub sneak attack on your tpt.
A) Keep both DD & tpt in sz#3, you could either keep them floating or offload for amp assault (if coastal). Correct, the sub can’t attack.
B) Move both DD & tpt 1 more space to sz #4 (both units would be at their max movement) Correct, the sub can’t attack.
C) Attack the sub in sz #3 w/DD (see below) If the transport stays, then the sub can’t attack. If the transport attempts to move to another sea zone, it is moving through unaccompanied (the same surface warship has to be with it for the transport’s entire move), so the sub may fire. Making a combat move against the sub does not stop the attack, only accompanying the transport for its entire move stops the attack in the movement phase, what’s going to occur in a later phase doesn’t change this.

Things you can’t do:
D) Split up your 2 units by placing DD in sz #4, and tpt in sz #5. Correct, the transport wasn’t accompanied for its entire move, so it was not considered to be accompanied when it moved trough the subs sea zone, the sub can attack.
E) Leave your tpt in sz #3, and move your DD to sz #4. (even if you bring in a replacement escort from a different sz at the same time) Incorrect. This prevents the attack. The transport was accompanied for its entire move. Once the transport is done moving the warship is free to move where ever it wants. Look at it this way the transports have moved into port or to the shore they are now safe for the time being. However, they are dead, if another fleet doesn’t come by to protect them from the subs that will be coming to attack on their turn.
F) Leave the DD in sz#3 (to patrol for subs) and move the tpt alone to sz#4 (not 100% on this one). From what I gathered the DD would have to have been there at the beginning of the turn, not moved there. Correct, the sub can attack, for the same reason as C above. Also, the warship starting in the same sea zone as the sub, and staying there patrolling, doesn’t stop the attack in this updated answer. whether the transport is accompanied during its movement or not is all the matters now.

Things that need answers:
C) Attack the sub w/DD (from above):

a) Does it sub stall your tpt in the combat move if you attack w/DD, and both ships are stuck there regardless of the out come? (I would think this is right, at least its what happened in the past) It doesn’t stall it, but the sub can shoot at the transport, if it tries to continue moving without the same ship that was accompanying it at the start of its move.
b) Does this nullify the sneak attack and allow your tpt(s) to move safely to the next sz alone?  If it does work that way you could tie up 4-5 subs w/one DD allowing safe passage (doesn’t sound right) It doesn’t.

**Also if you came in with a CR as the escort the sub could submerge in the attack before the battle. If it submerges what happens? Can the tpt continue on safely? (I would think not because all movement stops if there’s a battle attempt). I would think that if a sub submerges in combat it would not get pop shots in non combat, allowing tpts to move through alone safely in non combat, but I’m not sure anymore. The sub doesn’t choose to submerge until the conduct combat phase. The transport has to continue on accompanied by the same warship, that is what prevents the attack. What the sub does in the combat phase doesn’t affect whether a transport is considered to be accompanied during the non-combat phase or not. If a transport tries to move into or through a space containing an enemy sub, and it didn’t make its complete move, start to finish, accompanied by a specific surface warship, the sub gets to shoot at it, no matter what else is, or might be, going on in the sea zone.

The answer is yes.

I don’t have my rule book with me, so I’m reluctant to give the reason why it is yes. I’m sure someone else will, though. Or correct me, if I’m wrong.

@Krieghund:

The idea here is that in order to protect transports from sub attacks, they must have a dedicated escort.  Since a moving fleet (in reality) would have no idea exactly where enemy subs are, the transports must be escorted for their entire move in order for the escort to qualify as “dedicated”.

Please continue to pick this apart.  Your input has been valuable and appreciated.

I’m fine with it, no matter how it ends up. But, why not require the surface warship to start with and stay with the transports?

As it is, the warship can move with the transport into the sub’s sea zone, leave the transport there, and then move on to make an attack in a different sea zone. Of course the transport is dead on the sub’s next turn, if other warships aren’t moved in to protect it.

@Krieghund:

OK, we’re taking this thing in a different direction:

Q.  Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”.  Under exactly what conditions do surface warships prevent sub attacks on moving transports?
A.  In order to prevent sub attacks, a transport or group of transports must make its entire move accompanied by a specific surface warship or group of surface warships.

So, surface warships starting in the sea zone with a sub, and staying there, don’t prevent the attacks.

The attacks are not prevented, if a transport moves to a sea zone containing a surface warship, and then they both move into the sub’s sea zone.

The attacks are prevented, if a surface warship moves to a sea zone containing a transport, and then they both move into the sub’s sea zone?

The transport has to make its entire move with the warship, but the warship doesn’t have to make its entire move with the transport.

I prefer smaller dice for A&A, so I replaced mine with 12mm dice in sets of various colors.

The ones that came with the game seemed to roll high anyway, until I used them in a different game where rolling high was good. Guess what they rolled then?  :cry:

How about, get rid of the “through” part of the rule?

A submarine can attack any transport that moves into its sea zone unaccompanied by a surface warship moving from the same sea zone, in either the combat or noncombat move phase. A submarine may not attack, if there was an enemy surface warship in its sea zone at the start of the movement phase, and the enemy ship remains there for the entire phase. To attack, each submarine fires once (using its attack value of 2) at the transport(s). One transport must be removed by the moving player for each hit scored. Any undestroyed transports can continue their planned movement.

@Krieghund:

Since the transport is moving out of the sea zone (not into or through), the sub would not get to fire on it.

Thank you. Makes sense, the faq answer supplements the rule, doesn’t replace it :-)

I’m not sure this has ever been relevant before; Do you have to move one unit completely, before moving another unit?

Can you move a surface warship one space to prevent the sub shot, move a transport through the sea zone, then move the surface warship one more space?

If a transport finds itself unprotected in a sea zone, with an enemy sub, at the start of its movement (it was built there last turn/just declared war)

Does the sub get to shoot, if the transport attempts to move out of the sea zone?

Ok
US turn 2
Japan isn’t at war with anyone, except China.
Japan has a transport in SZ 6, with no warships
The US moves their sub into this sea zone

Japan turn 3, they declare war
Does the US sub get to shoot immediately?
Does it get to shoot, if Japan attempts to move the transport?
Can Japan move a surface warship into the sea zone, stop the attack, then load and move the transport?

This seems to be contrary to the idea of simultaneous movement.

A Battleship can use all of its movement to move two spaces to get to the sub’s sea zone, then a transport can start its movement and move through the sub’s sea zone?

Or a surface warship can start in the sea zone with the sub, a transport can use its movement to move through the sea zone, then the surface warship can start its movement and go a totally different direction?

but planes can’t wait until after their carrier has finished moving before starting their move.

UK/ANZAC can’t take control of the French territories with a non-combat move, the way they do with the Dutch territories.

Wasn’t there a rule in the previous errata that a Power couldn’t attack neutral territories, before they were in the war? That seems to be US only now. Though, Japan is the only power that could do this.

@Hobbes:

So, if a transport moves to a SZ and joins a warship there and then both move to a SZ containing an enemy sub the sub will not fire?

Though that specifically wasn’t covered, that I saw. My bet is the transports are protected in that situation as well.

Another situation:

The warship and transports start at a naval base, move into a SZ containing a sub, move together out of the SZ, then split up for their third move. Obviously, the transports should still be protected, even though they weren’t accompanied for their entire move.

@Veqryn:

so what actual changes to the gameplay are there from the new faq?

Nothing really

Before: Movements resulted in war. You moved, figured out if it caused war, then had to check to make sure all the moves you made, prior to the war causing move, were actually possible, because if any move resulted in war, you were actually at war at the beginning of your movement phase.

Now: You declare war. You can then make war causing moves, if you want. No need to go back and recheck any prior moves. No need to make any war causing moves at all, but you still get to do any of those nasty things to the enemy you’re allowed to do during their turn.

But the net result, at the end of your turn, is pretty much the same as it was before.

The small differences are:
You make a declaration of war.
The way the Dutch are treated is a little different, maybe.