Posts made by Lord Claremorris

@Endeer:

What about Oran? The french said they wouldn’t fight with the british because they sent a low ranking officer to meet them, instead they sat in the port and waited for the Nazis. The British than destroyed the French fleet and went home.

That’s not what happened at all. Gensoul was angered that the British wanted to negotiate using a lower ranked officer than him, but all the evidence suggests he was going to fight the whole time. He informed Somerville repeatedly that he was not going to allow the French ships to fall into Axis hands, and that he was not going to be sailing anywhere. The British responded that they would open fire, so Gensoul repeatedly asked for extensions. Somerville was a damn fool to allow this, as the French, during these extensions, were seen by the British delegation to be clearing their decks, calling their men back from the shore and loading their guns, and firing up their boilers. I.e., the French ships were preparing to fight, and the extensions were just a stall to get better prepared. The lower ranked officers is entirely irrelevant.

@knp7765:

At Oran, the British fleet basically gave the French fleet an ultimatum, “Surrender immediately or be destroyed”, and gave little time for a response before opening fire and killing 1,000 French sailors.
Also, when the US and British landed at Morocco in Operation Torch, the Vichy French practially let them land almost totally unopposed so they could defeat the Axis, although they did put up a fight against the Allies in Algeria for some reason.

I agree with most of your post, except this bit. The Vichy French, being neutral, resisted the British in Syria, in Madagascar, at Dakar, and finally during the Torch landings. They only surrendered after being forced to surrender, and some British soldiers wrote that fighting the French in Syria was hell compared to fighting the Germans in Egypt.

As for Oran, that was the plan but it didn’t quite work out that way. Somerville arrived around 12 o’clock noon, and informed the French of their ultimatum and said they had until 1:30 until he opened fire. Somerville, however, was a personal friend of Gensoul and said that he was absolutely sickened by the operation. So he repeatedly granted the French extensions to their deadline, even though the French were clearing going to resist, as I posted above. Anyhow, the British did not open fire on the French until almost 6 P.M., thus giving the French nearly 6 hours to decide. Furthermore, he let the French battlecruiser Strasbourg escape, claiming that it was too fast. In actuality the Strasbourg was only making 17 knots, having been hit at least once, while Somerville on the HMS Hood was making about 24 knots. At full capacity the Strasbourg would outrun the Hood, but since it was damaged it could not. Somerville didn’t bother launching any planes to try and stop it, and only gave chase for about 20 minutes, thus leading me to assume he let it go on purpose, as he seemed to not even try.

@Xandax:

Sure - France has a very bad rep - not only when it comes to WW2, but military in general - it’s just an internet thing most of the time.
However much of the situation for how France is handled in this game is due to game balance.  It’s difficult, if not impossible, to accurately map up a strategy game mimic real life’s complexity. It’s not - I hope - because the makers are anti-French, it’s just that the game would be hard to balance as a 1940 game, without doing some very tricky rules.

I don’t think they are anti-French. Larry Harris wrote in the Rulebook for AAE1940 “I quickly decided that the game had to start with the Battle of France. France had to fall, and fast. The problem was, France was no small, token nation, and it’s military was first class.” So I think he’s explaining why France had to be so weak, otherwise the game would be Allied victory every time. As for the French getting a bad rep, it’s because people are ignorant of History. People tell me all the time “France hasn’t won any wars.” Then I ask them if they even know any wars that France has been in besides WWII, and of course the answer is always no. France has one of the most glorious military history’s in the World, and have had some amazing victories. Not even mentioning Napoleon, Charles Joseph Patissier defeated an Indian Prince in the Deccan at 10 to 1 odds at Velimdonpet in December, 1750. A French soldier wrote “Nobody in France will believe this could even possibly have happened.” Then at Carillon in July, 1758 (Ticonderoga to the British/Americans) Louis Joseph de Montcalm defeated James Abercrombie at 4 to 1 odds, and that was against the much reputed British Regulars, no small feat. The Americans never achieved anything close to that during the American Revolution. Then of course Herman-Maurice de Saxe defeated Cumberland repeatedly in the Austrian Netherlands during the war of the Austrian Succession, most famously at Fontenoy in May, 1745. That’s just a few examples of French military prowess. As for WWII, I think it should be remembered that France had a far better Army than the US in 1940, as the US had an army smaller than Portugal, and about the same size as Bulgaria (if you count the pieces in game the French actually have more land units than the US, US 13, France 20). It should also be remembered that the French had more men in the field in 1940 than the US had in 1945, and the Battle of the Bulge could possibly have been a replay of the Battle of France if the Allies hadn’t had air superiority, and if Roosevelt and Churchill had not begged Stalin to attack Germany in the East, which he promptly did. The French soldiers in 1940 did not have control of the air, nor did they have the comfort of 8 million Russians knocking on Germany’s back door. If the US Army was in similar circumstances it would have been defeated as well, probably even sooner than the French. And what of the British? Nobody calls them cowards yet the Germans threw them out of Europe 3 times, from Narvik, from Dunkirk, and from Piraeus in Greece. Everybody who fought the Germans lost, except for the Russians, but they suffered immensely for it, losing almost as many people as the entire population of France (French population in 1940, 38 million, Russian losses in WWII, approx. 30 million). So why do the French get singled out?

@Cmdr:

In exchange, maybe move the Med fleet to India.  There should be no significant British pressence in the Med at the start of the game…puh-lease, if there should be a carrier there, give me a link showing me what HMS carrier was in the Med in 1940, otherwise, it’s a “crappy” placement, IMHO.

I’m sorry, I know this is so many pages back, and I apologise if someone already answered this, but um, Taranto? British Aircraft from HMS Illustrious bombed the Italian Fleet at anchor in its main base in Taranto in 1940. The British Mediterranean Fleet was actually quite large, having several battleships and actually more than one aircraft carrier, as HMS Glorious and the older carrier HMS Eagle were also there. What did you think the planes that attacked Taranto were launched from destroyers?

Historical Sealion or in game Sealion? If it’s the latter I should say it’s already been explained.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. The Alps are a pretty formidable barrier, I think it should be similar with Persia, and like you said, with the dense jungles of South-East Asia.

As for Italy taking France, wouldn’t that be a very good thing for the Allies? I just played my first game of Global 1940 and I was thinking that if Germany didn’t bag that extra 23 IPCs from taking Paris, then that would make Sealion pretty darn difficult. It would be much less dangerous to have Italy take the money, seeing as how they’re in no position to do Sealion. So I’m thinking, if France resists Germany on G1, even if Italy takes France on I1, the UK is more or less saved from Sealion, unless the UK player is really terrible.

@Endeer:

What did the French contribute? Other than allowing the English to sink their warships at oran i cant think of much. The french did more harm to the allies than to the axis because of their willingness to give their ships over to the nazis because of mere pride.

The French didn’t hand a single warship over to the Axis. Many French warships were interned in British ports, sunk by the British, or in the case of Richelieu, trapped in an uncompleted state in a inadequate French African port. The rest were based in Toulon in Provence, where the Germans and Italians attempted to seize the French ships (with most of the ships going to Italy as compensation for losses sustained by the Italian Navy against the Royal Navy), but Jean de Laborde ordered the ships scuttled without hesitation. The Germans on the quay announced to Laborde on the Strasbourg that they were boarding, he shouted back “You are too late, the ship is sinking.” Which it certainly did. The French scuttled their entire fleet, they were a professional military organisation and I do not know of any Navy that has ever willingly turned its warships over to anybody. The Germans sailors and officers scuttled their ships in Scapa Flow when they found out the ships were to be parceled out to the Allies. The French Navy is a very old and very proud institution, it wasn’t about to meekly hand over its ships to the Germans, no sir.

As for the topic at hand, I’m in favour of improving the French position with House Rules. I very much respect the French (probably the only person I know who does), and I was saddened when they were pretty much made cannon-fodder for the Germans. I created a thread some time ago addressing the issue of France, but I digress. I think that the addition of a French infantry in Indo-China, and possibly a cruiser there is a good addition. I was also thinking about adding a naval base there, since Japan’s reason for taking it over was obviously for the naval facilities in Saigon and other ports. I would like to add a battleship too, for historical accuracy, France’s Navy was, after all, superior to that of Italy’s, and France even had an aircraft carrier (the Béarn). However, the Italian Navy is already hard pressed to defend against the existing British Fleet, so the addition of French capital ships would likely guarantee that Italy’s entire fleet will be destroyed on the 1st turn. With only 10 IPC income, Italy cannot hope to rebuild any sort of surface fleet for several turns, by which time the UK and France would have likely thrown what little forces they have in Africa out.

Interesting. Yes, I’m not quite liking North Italy being contiguous with France, as realistically you cannot reach the heart of France from Italy. Nonetheless that is about the answer I was looking for. Thank you sir.

Indeed, “Operation Catapult.” The British sank or interned every French ship they could lay hands on. Later the remainder of the French Fleet sunk itself in Toulon when the Germans attempted to seize it. French Admiral Jean de Laborde yelled in response to a German demand to board the battlecruiser Dunkerque, “You’re too late, the ship will sink.” So in the actual war the French Fleet did barely anything.

Thanks for telling me the usual fate of the French Fleet in game, by the way. One destroyer is hardly of much use.

Ah well. I suppose I’m just getting too hopeful then. Poor France, it’s still nice to have them in the game though, I don’t suppose it would be any use as being independently controlled by one person, but it definitely is nice to have a few French forces in the colonies to help out in holding Africa. Shame they didn’t give France more ships, the French Navy was the 4th largest in the World in 1940, much bigger than Russia’s, Germany’s, or Italy’s, but I understand that’s for game balance purposes. But I digress, thank you gentlemen for explaining to me the usual outcomes concerning France at the beginning of the game.

@Imperious:

If France was able to beat Germany, somethings really wrong with the game!

If you got a link to any you tube video that shows how France wins, id really like to see it. :-D

Those were my thoughts, I assumed France would lose to Germany within the 1st or 2nd turns. I have no youtube video showing France surviving, on the contrary I’ve seen about 3 videos where Paris is taken turn 1 and Germany obviously is ascendant in Western Europe. That is not surprising, and I would not like it any other way, but my question is does France usually weaken Germany at all in the attack? Is France’s inclusion beneficial for the Allies? Of course the answer would be subjective to each person’s playing style, but I would love to hear everyone’s opinion on it. But yes, you are right, if France can defeat Germany, then they game won’t last very long and the Axis are doomed right from the get go, as I believe Germany is more or less the core of the Axis, certainly Italy can’t redeem the situation, and Japan is too far away to save the Axis in Europe.

@Ruanek:

Germany is in a position to take out France (Paris, especially) in its first turn, which is before the first French turn (and the first British turn, and they have a few units in France).  France can survive if they get very lucky on the die rolls or if Germany for some reason doesn’t commit enough forces to Paris, but even then they’ll probably be taken out before their second turn.  It’s really rare.

They actually make it a bit more difficult for the Allies, in my opinion, because now when they liberate Paris they have to make sure they can hold it, or Germany can take it back (especially given all its factories near it) and get all of France’s money.

France does well only out of the bad luck/strategy of the German player.

Very well. I also think the Axis are given a breathing space because Russia and the US are not allowed to attack the Axis until turn 4 and 3, respectively. I think this is more realistic to actual WWII, and it gives Germany and Italy 3 turns to take France and the UK out of the game. If the Germans take Paris, and succeed in Sealion, at the same time the Italians are pushing in Africa, then the Axis will be in a very good position to fight the Russians and Americans. But at the same time, if the Axis’ gamble fails, and France and the UK survive, than their position will be much worse. I’m really liking this new system, in theory of course, I cannot wait to try it out. I just really like how the addition of France opens up many more possibilities, and especially how it has the chance to distract Germany from building a navy, and from giving a quick knock-out blow to Russia. At least this is what I hope will happen.

Wow, wasn’t expecting that. Have you ever seen that happen? I’m really starting to like it now, me and and whoever is the French can beat Germany before the Russians even join. Plus the Italians will have to watch their back in the Med, so I can defend Egypt much better. 8-)

Hello, I just joined this forum today, and I have a question. I was really excited to see that they added France in the global 1940 game, and being a primarily UK player (I’m an Anglophile, I play the British in every game that includes them :-P) I thought that the presence of French troops in Africa, the Middle-East, Europe and perhaps the Far East(?) would be a great help to my own strategies. I don’t own Europe or Global 1940 yet, and I’ve never played, so I was just wondering if France is in fact useful. I watched a couple of youtube videos where France was immediately blitzed and destroyed by Germany, which is to be expected, but how does Germany usually come off out of that? So basically I want to know if the addition of France significantly changes the way the Allies (and the UK player especially) play, or if the French just get steamrolled by Germany right away and then it’s back to a classic A&A game? Thanks for any feedback.