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    Posts made by Lazarus

    • RE: Germany's wartime food supply

      A demolition of the claim it was a blockade that killed the jews

      I am not allowed to post links so dont think I am deliberately trying to steal anothers work.

      _It is, however, important, to separate the so-called “Jewish question” from the availability or lack of food in the Third Reich. Plans for the expulsion, ghettoisation and annihilation of the Jews were, for the most part, in place long before any effects of an embargo could have affected food supplies for the German civilian population:

      A circular order issued by Reinhard Heydrich on the 3rd of September, 1939, addressed to all senior principals in the SD, the Security Police the Gestapo and the border police specified:

      …the most Draconian measures against anyone even suspected of hostility to the Reich and the war effort. The key paragraph ordered the referral of all information on arrested suspects to Heydrich’s office for decision. 1
      The following is emphasized in the original circular:

      …because on the basis of higher authority the brutal liquidation of such elements will follow. 2

      Furthermore:

      On March 9, 1940, Himmler issued the blanket order forbidding the wartime release of Jews held in concentration camps. 3

      The mechanism for extermination was in place long before any effective blockade or embargo could have taken place.

      Whatever embargo the British or French naval fleets might have attempted during that time would not have been enormously successful. In reality, the British were suffering considerably from the German blockade with severe food rationing in place long before the United States entered the war. Such rationing did not take place on the same scale in Germany even during the closing months of the war. One reason for any apparent food shortage in Germany is lamely explained in the following excerpt:

      On December 14, 1940, Herbert Backe, the State Secretary who was the driving force in the Food and Agriculture Ministry, released a confidential report on the European food situation which caused a stir at the top level of the Reich Government. Citing critical shortages in the first wartime continental harvest, Backe drafted far-reaching plans for German rationing and for the wholesale confiscation of foodstuffs from occupied Europe. The goal was to take enough from elsewhere to offset what otherwise would be disastrous shortages in meat and grains available to the German population. Backe further concluded that the longer-term food shortages could only be solved through an attack on the Soviet Union, followed by wholesale confiscations of Russian foodstuffs and livestock. Even if all the Russian food and agricultural resources became available to Germany and her allies, Backe concluded, the only way to guarantee a blockade-proof Nazi Europe would be to kill off millions of Russians by liquidations, starvation, or deportation. 4

      Backe’s report did not take into account the Nazi policies that had led to the decline of German agriculture from 1933 onward. His statement could well have attempted to cover up those Nazi policies that led to a decline of farm production:

      Between 1933 and 1939 the agricultural population of Germany within the boundaries of 1937 declined from 20.8 percent to 18 percent of the total population and workers in agriculture and forestry decreased from 28.9 percent to 26 percent. At least 700,000 people migrated from the country to the cities. […] Until 1935 farm income increased , but thereafter stagnated , while the national income continued to rise by 6 to 12 percent annually. Farm income amounted to 8.7 percent of the national income in 1933, but only 8.3 percent in 1937. And in order to make a living, the farmer, and particularly the small farmer, had to put in more and more hours of work. 5

      As early as 1914, Germany had produced about 80 percent of her food. It is unlikely that the populace would have suffered any great threat of starvation early in the Second World War, more so that huge shipments of food confiscated from Poland, the Ukraine and other Eastern European nations flowed into the Reich. By the time that food was becoming scarce in late 1944 and early 1945, most of the victims of the Holocaust were dead.

      Even that scarcity was relative. When the British captured the infamous Bergen-Belsen camp on April 15, 1945:

      [They]…discovered the conditions which were to astonish and horrify the world a day or so later. Briefly, these were that in a camp of the approximate dimensions of 1500 by 350 metres were confined about 40,000 men and women in the most extreme state of starvation and emaciation, many of them suffering from typhus; that there were, in addition, 13,000 unburied corpses, and that for the living there was little food… 6

      There was, however, a great sufficiency of food within and in the vicinity of the camp:

      Major A. L. Berney, sworn. examined by Col. Backhouse - I am with 817 Military Government Detachment. On 15th April I was sent by Headquarters 8 Corps to Colonel Taylor of the Occupying Forces of Belsen Camp. On the next day I was asked to find the nearest food store which I did at the north of the Panzer Troop School about three kilometers from the camp. I found the Hauptmann in charge of the store who informed me that he was responsible for sending some food from his store to the camp - potatoes and turnips. He did not give me any reason as to why it was the only stuff furnished. I obtained a list of food in the store from him, and remember there were 600 tons of potatoes, 120 tons of tinned milk, 30 tons of sugar, upwards of 20 tons of powdered milk; cocoa, grain, wheat and other foodstuffs. […] There is a very large bakery there with a capacity, I was told, of 60,000 loaves a day, which was fully staffed. It appeared to me that there was a very vast quantity of all the necessary materials for making bread. The bakery is still working now [20th September 1945 -HWM] and most of the staff 7

      The infamous Dr. Johann Paul Kremer, who witnessed gassings in Auschwitz and survived the war, wrote in his diary while in Munster, on March 31, 1945:

      […] At last I was able to get the tinned meat I wanted (a layer of lard on top and pork underneath). … I therefore got 8 heavy tins for myself and Mrs. Glaser. … The neighbors finally came with plenty of beef which had been distributed before and so at Eastertide 1945 nobody had to endure hunger in Munster.

      and on April 1, 1945:

      We had a magnificent dinner today. Delicious beef broth with noodles, beans with bacon, potatoes, apple sauce and red whortleberries. For breakfast we had cold ham, bread and butter with real coffee and plenty of whole milk. At 4 P.M. _told that all sorts of fine things could be had free from the magazine of the military barracks in the ‘Univ-Sportzplatz’ such as peas, biscuits, noodles etc. I got to work filling …two big air-raid shelter paper bags which I had brought… 8

      Photographs of the civilian population of Germany taken immediately after capitulation do not show a people ravaged by starvation. On the contrary, most civilians appear to be well-fed and well-dressed.

      Finally, it might be useful to review the assessment made by the Bombing Research Analysts of the Medical Branch of the United States War Department:

      The health of the German people was the basic factor upon which depended the ability of Germany to wage war. The continuity and nutritional adequacy of Germany’s food supply constituted the foundation of their health.

      Although Germany’s agricultural economy was incapable of feeding her own population without imports, she was able to withstand prolonged blockade by war. The effect of blockade was in large measure circumvented by the operation of the German system of supply control which in turn assured the continuity of Germany’s ultimate source of productive capacity. In consequence, the extent to which the Allied bomber offensive capacity interfered with the German food supply system is a measure of its contribution to the defeat of Germany.

      Since Germany could not raise within her own boundaries sufficient food to supply her population adequately, self-sufficiency was a question of serious national consequence long before the war. Even prior to the advent of totalitarian rule many national officials labored on the problem of increasing the degree of self-sufficiency in Germany. With the inception of the Nazi regime, the measures invoked to achieve this end became progressively harsher.

      By the beginning of the war, Germany’s over-all self-sufficiency in food had reached a level of approximately 83 percent, on the peacetime basis of 2200-2400 calories per day, according to Hans-Joachim Riecke, State Secretary in the Reich Ministry of Food and Agriculture.

      The country could be fed at a reduced level by the produce raised within its own boundaries if food were perfectly controlled and evenly distributed. […] Consequently, it is clear that all German civilians could be fed at a uniform level of adequacy during a war only by control of the country’s food supply at the national level and by continued operation of the transportation network of the country. 9

      The main thrust of the bombing offensive was against heavy industry and chemical production. The damage caused to grain mills involved in the production of rye was 9 percent whereas to wheat it was 35 percent. It appears that damage to food processing industries was only incidental to attacks on other industrial targets or area bombing.

      I hope that this brief essay - which does not pretend to do more than offer a few examples - will serve as a guide to other reading material on the subject.

      Harry W. Mazal OBE

      –------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Notes

      Berenbaum, Michael & Peck, Abraham J. (editors) “The Holocaust and History,” 1998, Indiana University Press, Essay: pp. 160-186 “Executive Instinct” by Charles W. Sydnor, Jr.

      Krausnik, Helmut, “Anatomie des SS Staates” vol. 2, pp. 98-115, 1965, Freiberg Verlag.

      Berenbaum, Michael & Peck, Abraham J. (editors), opus cit., p. 169

      Ibid, pp. 173-174.

      Holborn, Hajo. “A History of Modern Germany 1840-1945,” 1969, Princeton University Press. p. 758

      Phillips, Raymond (Editor). “Trial of Josef Kramer and Forty- Four Others,” 1949, William Hodge and Co., Ltd. p. xxiii.

      Ibid, pp. 54-55.

      Bezwinska, Jadwigs and Czech, Danuta (editors). “KL Auschwitz Seen by the SS,” 1994, Howard Fertig, pp. 268-270.

      War Department (Washington D. C.) “The Effect of Bombing on Health and Medical Care in Germany”, Oct. 30, 1945, Chapter Eleven, “Food Supply and Nutrition” by Major Henry J. Rugo, Quartermaster Corps, AUS., pp 264-293.__

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Germany's wartime food supply

      This is the way Germany treated the Poles in 1940-41

      T. Tsarota, Warschau unter dem Hakenkreuz, Paderborn: 1985, p. 113,
      1940

      1st Quarter Poles 609 calories; Jews 503 calories
      2nd Quarter Poles 704 calories; Jews 449 calories
      3rd Quarter Poles 698 calories; Jews 331 calories
      4th Quarter Poles 938 calories; Jews 369 calories
      Yearly average Poles 737 calories; Jews 413 calories

      1941

      1st Quarter Poles 611 calories; Jews 237 calories
      2nd Quarter Poles 553 calories; Jews 219 calories
      3rd Quarter Poles 531 calories; Jews 198 calories
      4th Quarter Poles 981 calories; Jews 360 calories
      Yearly average Poles 669 calories; Jews 253 calories

      and you are whining because some Germans ‘only’ got 1,500 calories in the worst period!

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Germany's wartime food supply

      @KurtGodel7:

      It is correct to say that FDR publicly disavowed the plan, and told the American people it would not be implemented. While some people are inclined to take him at his word, others believe that the public statements made by politicians should be investigated before being accepted.

      So what you are saying is you know the plan was not impemented but will continue  to claim it was  because you ‘do not believe public staements by politicians’.
      Very convincing argument!

      Rationing went on until 1954 in Britain

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Germany's wartime food supply

      The Morgenthau Plan was just that. A plan that was REJECTED.
      The usual  mob (excuse makers, fan-boys and rabid anti-semites) keep mentioning it as if it was implimented because they need a reason to shift the blame on to the Allies for the devastation in Europe.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Germany's wartime food supply

      I note none of the reviews you used are from specialist military historians/publications.
      His Amazon reviews are much more balanced. Granted the whiney ‘we wuz robbed’ Nazi lovers  are all  praising this fiction but others have much more telling comments about the authors reaearch methods and faulty conclusions.
      As I said the whole book is available online for those who like this type of porn.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Germany's wartime food supply

      @KurtGodel7:

      The exact number of civilians murdered at Treuenbrietzen does not materially affect the larger debate.

      The actual ‘murders’ have yet to be proved.
      As you must know every story is based on one mans conclusions and he has no data other than ‘reports’ that are completely undocumented.

      @KurtGodel7:

      You attempt to portray After the Reich as a revisionist and non-credible source. In addition to being wrong on both counts, you are also in error to suppose the book’s main conclusions can be seriously disputed. Historian Antony Beevor  the Soviet invasion of Germany as “the greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history.”

      Ah yes Beevor. Tha man who can not read Russian but conducts extensive ‘research’ into original Soviet documents.
      You do know his rape figure is a based on a tiny sample and the belief only 1 in 10 rapes is reported. In effect he plucked the number from thin air.
      Still you can not deny all the revisionists are in raptures over After The Reich. They (and you) use it to try and claim the poor Germans were the real victims of WW2.
      Quite simply rubbish

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Germany's wartime food supply

      The book (After the Reich)  is online but I am not allowed to post links

      All the book  sources are secondary and no original documentation is used.

      The author read 400 books and wrote book 401!

      This book is a mainstay of revisionist and anti-Jewish hate sites.
      It is dear to the heart of all  those who think Germany was the victim in WW2.
      This  from one site where all the favorable reviews are quoted in full but any that  do not toe the party line as treated like this:

      There was also a review in the Washington Post, but it was to say that Germans don’t compare to Jews; I believe it was written by a Jew, like 50% of this rag.

      Note that all the links on the claimed dead at Treuenbrietzen come back to  the account of one man and the numbers vary widely

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Germany's wartime food supply

      @KurtGodel7:

      Further, Britain and France declared war on Germany, which then caused Germany to declare war on Britain and France. The Anglo-French justification for their war on Germany was that they were protecting the Polish.

      Parallel universe here.

      Germany knew Poland had a treaty and that an invasion would resuly in war.
      Germany invade and thus entirely by her own actions started the war.

      If you tell a potential burglar that if he breaks in to your house you will attack him then the same burglar can not claim you attacked him for no good reason if you catch him in your kitchen.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Germany's wartime food supply

      Can we have a link for the 1000 deaths at Treuenbrietzen.

      Did you know 127 Italian POW’s were  killed there by……

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Germany's wartime food supply

      War Crimes are strictly defined.
      The bombing of Dresden was not a War Crime.
      The food blockade was not on either.

      Anyone who reads Hitler’s book or listened to his speeches  knows what he was going to do to the Jews and no amount of excuse making can hide the fact.
      Even if there was a fatted cow for every person in Europe daily for 10 years those Jews were going to die.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Germany's wartime food supply

      Levity:

      Search for this on Youtube

      Lambeth Walk: Nazi Style - by Charles A. Ridley (1941)

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: Germany's wartime food supply

      @KurtGodel7:

      1. Which nation bears the blame for the British (and later American) government’s decision to use food as a weapon? During a time of war, the deliberate targeting of enemy civilians is a war crime. A food blockade directed against an entire nation can have no possible target except civilians.

      What was the aim of the unrestricted sinking of all ships going to the UK?

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: WW2 Article: Advanced German Technology

      Germany had  3000 tanks in service by April 1943 (+ 800 Stug) rising to 3900 (+1,500 Stug)by July.
      The max. she ever had in service was 4,800 in June 1944(+ 3,300 stug). Figures sunk as low as 3,400 (+ 1,700 Stug) in Aug 1944. By Jan 1945 the max was 4,250 (+ 4,000 stug).

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: WW2 Article: Advanced German Technology

      Typical far-right paranoi.
      I had an uncle who died when visiting Russia. Perhaps we could add him as a ‘commie’ victim?
      The site you linked is nothing more than a ‘Hitler -was not so-bad’ rant
      and no country was as openly  muderous as Germany under Hitler.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: WW2 Article: Advanced German Technology

      Who made a pact with the Soviets that divided up Poland between them?
      Seems odd that old Adolf supped with the man he saw as the devil.
      Please save the sob story for the millions who died  just  so you could play with you little plastic Tiger tanks

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: WW2 Article: Advanced German Technology

      I don’t see many starving Germans in 1945.
      I note they kept their own civilians fed at the expense of the French, Poles, Dutch etc.
      The very fact the stole food from others to feed their own makes them responsible for all the deaths that followed.
      Starting a war and then crying that it is all the attacked nations fault is  just silly. I suppose next we will get the standard excuse that the invasion of Russia was to pre-empt a great barbarian attack on Europe
      ‘Blonde  knights on panzers’ holding back the Soviet hordes and saving Western civilisation from ……yuk, pass the sick-bag.

      Have I accidently joined Stormfront?

      Please stop treating this thread  as if you were some great teacher putting me ‘right’ on wartime Germany.
      I have a personal libray in the several thousands and have been reading this stuff for over 40 years.
      No more  lectures.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: WW2 Article: Advanced German Technology

      So the Allies were to blame for the ‘starvation’ of the Jews?
      This is insane. The Jews did not ‘starve to death’ they were murdered.
      I presume the German attempt to starve the UK by sinking its food supplies is going to be expained away as all Churchill’s fault as well!
      This is pro-German propaganda at its worst and  the arguments used are the staple of the Nazi apologists.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: WW2 Article: Advanced German Technology

      So only Germany had flying wings?

      Northrop N-1M?

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: WW2 Article: Advanced German Technology

      @KurtGodel7:

      If you want my help, you’ve got it! I’ll start with jets. Lazarus was inaccurate to state that the first jet was the Meteor

      Oh dear. Fall at your first hurdle.
      Please check back and tell me the dates the Meteor entered Squadron service and then give me the date for the first Me 262 Squadron.
      Please do not confuse the issue by dragging other subjects in to it and just give the dates to prove I was wrong.

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
    • RE: WW2 Article: Advanced German Technology

      @KurtGodel7:

      Secondly, you wrote that “The claim that the stealth bomber is a german invention is laughable.” You didn’t cite any source to support that claim. Germany developed a prototype of a flying wing bomber during WWII. Back when Germany was under the Versailles Treaty, prohibitions against powered aircraft caused a lot of German aeronautical talent to be diverted into gliders. The Germans learned a lot about aerodynamics as a result–learning which helped considerably with the subsequent invention of the Horten Ho 229’s flying wing design.

      It seems I am not permitted to link anything so I can not give you the page where this was posted in National Geographic Magazine.

      I  wrote a letter to a curator at the facility inquiring about the rumored stealth properties of the Ho 229 aircraft and received a detailed response: “I have examined the aircraft and many primary and secondary sources of information about the Hortens’ work, and I have found no reliable evidence to confirm this idea. Reimar Horten described these low RCS [radar cross section] techniques during the early 1980s as news reports began to appear that described the stealth qualities of the Northrop B-2 bomber. I have examined the Ho 229 V3 numerous times and found no evidence of a “mixture of charcoal and glue” applied to the skin that would lower the RCS. I believe Horten ‘invented’ the notion of the stealthy Ho 229 to draw attention to other interesting and innovative aspects of his work.”

      .

      posted in World War II History
      L
      Lazarus
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