Posts made by kaufschtick

@kungfujew:

This is a post by Larry Harris on his website that I felt I should post regarding this topic since I kind of feel the same way about it that he does.

“As for Japan being too powerful…Look, in AAP the Japanese have a 2:1 air force advantage over the allies. At the beginning of the war Japan was truly a supper power in the pacific. It actually had a 6:1 advantage in aviation. It had the Zero which was arguably the best fighter in the world at the time. 6:1!? I could not let history guide the setup to reflect a 6:1 advantage. I’m sure you’ll agree. So I made it a 2:1 advantage, and you lily white pansies are still complaining. Come on… if the real allies could do it (beat the Japs) so can you. Personally I enjoy the challenge.”

Lily white pansies!?!

I don’t think Larry has a leg to stand on if he’s actually trying to connect the dots from actual history to Axis & Allies.

Axis & Allies is a game, and it’s connection to how it portrays actual events can only be described as loosely abstract, and that’s being generous.

The airbase rule is a great example of a rule introduced into the game as a game mechanic first, solely for game balance, and a representation of actual history second.

For example: New Zealand, an island. Malaya, not an island.

Japan, an island. New Guinea, not so much an island.

China falling entirely to Japan?

A fun game to be sure, but as a simulation or a study in the actual historical situation, I think not.

@kungfujew:

This is a post by Larry Harris on his website that I felt I should post regarding this topic since I kind of feel the same way about it that he does.

“I could be wrong but I think there will not be too many early game Russian/Japanese attacks. Why should there be.”

He could be wrong!?!

Not again!!! :-o

Didn’t he ever hear about the JTDTM!?!!! :-o

@kungfujew:

This is a post by Larry Harris on his website that I felt I should post regarding this topic since I kind of feel the same way about it that he does.

“It could end up that indeed Japan has turned out to be too strong in P40. I don’t really know yet for sure.”

He doesn’t know for sure!?!

It seems to me that before you release a $100.00 game that one might want to answer this question first, before you put the game out there and start taking people’s money.

@kungfujew:

Okay,  what he’s actually saying is that regardless of what anyone else thinks, Pacific 1940 is it’s own stand alone game that does not need another theater to balance it.

That’s not how I read it. Sounds to me like he’s saying that Japan could end up being too strong.

KungFu, did you bother to take the time to read your own post?

With all of the foul ups in the set up, and in the rule book, it makes perfect sense to have a second edition.

And if you’re going to do that, why not incorperate a better game set up at the same time, as it seems reasonably possible that the OOB game rules don’t produce a good game and…dare I say, are broken…(ducks for fear of having objects flung my way)

@cminke:

i dont want to spend an extra 100 on a new game!

I didn’t want to spend $100 on a broken game either! (ducks back behind desk again)

@Van_Trump:

Japanese player always overprotects Japan against Midway buildup. They have no choice.

Very right you are, sir.  :evil: :-D

@Van_Trump:

If US is earning 55 ipcs, and already has a sizable navy(mainly cheap subs), they can funnel 4 TTs, 5 inf + 3 art per turn. That’s 8 ground units + transport capacity landing in Midway each turn. Quite a bit of pressure for Japan to worry about. At the very least, Japan spends a couple of turns buying 10 inf for defense in Tokyo.

Yes, but the trouble here is that the cheap subs don’t help those transports one bit against defending fighters on the Japanese home islands. As we’ve played the game, the Japanese have loaded the home islands and Truk with planes. The planes can jump back and forth between the two depending on the prevailing threat from the Yanks.

@Van_Trump:

Psychological warfare at its finest.

LOL! So true!  :lol: That’s the best part of the Midway NB. The Yanks can use it to leverage the Japanese defences on Truk back to Japan, and possibly grab Truk.

@Van_Trump:

Then US lands TT’s only all over the map like a bad rash, retreating the fleet back to Midway or Hawaii. This is not an easy task for the USN. Japan probably has 5-6 loaded carriers at this point.

A bad rash indeed!  :-D :lol: We had a game of immediate 40 where the US was able to take Truk with enough force to win the initial attack (Japanese air came out to defend the SZ, 4 fully loaded US transports took the island after the naval battle win) and just barely enough to hold off the Japanese counter attack.

Those transports then went; three to SZ19, landing troops in Jehol, Shantung & Kiangsu. The fourth went to liberate Hong Kong, and the Japanese folded at that point. The deal with that move was that the Japanese were going to have but one chance to counter attack those troops. The next US move would see them move into China and off the coast.

“If you wanna live, get off the beach!”

That’s the trouble with Korea. Even if you see, as the US, that you aren’t going to be able to bring in more reinforcements in to Korea from sea, it’s three turns before you can move your troops off the coast from Korea, giving the Japanese plenty of time to round up a naval force with troops to cut the US force to ribbons.

@Van_Trump:

For a change, Japan has to play with precision. But, with precise play, win they do unless the caveman has anything to say about it.

LOL!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well, the Caveman (whatever happened to that thread? :wink:) says that if you play immediate 40, both sides suddenly have the same feel about them. There’s a little more forgiveness in play for the Allies, and a little less in play for the Japanese, making them fairly close to equal.

As you’ve very nicely stated before, the Allies have to play perfect each move just to stay alive in the OOB games. The other thing that has to happen for the Allies to stay alive in the OOB game, is that they can’t have anything less than average dice, and they also need the Japanese to have nothing more than average dice.

Lady luck has to stay neutral or in the Allied camp. We’ve had many a OOB game end real quick just because the Allies had a run of bad dice in the begining, or the Japanese had a run of good dice. Either one of these is not good for the Allies in OOB.

I saw a post in another thread where the poster mentioned that if Japan didn’t take India early enough, that the Allied (US and ANZAC were mentioned) air units moving in to reinforce would soon enough make India too tough a nut for the Japanese to crack.

The mention of US air units in particular was interesting to me. In games we’ve been playing, the Japanese start off like this:

J1 the Japanese take the PI & Celebes
J2 they take the rest of the DEI
J3 they take Singapore

Fighters and dive bombers are not capable of moving from Australia to India. Queensland is 6 from India, and the rest of Australia is 5.

That makes Singapore an important shuttle point to get Allied air to India. With the Japanese attacking Singapore at the start of turn 3, any Allied planes that are trying to move through Singapore to India need to have cleared on through by the start of turn 3, or they’ll get caught in the meatgrinder.

That, in turn, means that any Allied planes need to leave Singapore for India on turn two. For that to happen, they have to land there on turn one. There is only the one ANZACer fighter that starts at Queensland that can do this.

So Singapore isn’t going to be the tool to get Allied air to India. With it gone, Australia is too far away.

For CVs to launch planes to India, they would have to be in SZs 55 or 56. For the Allies, just getting enough strength to SZ54 is difficuly enough, and that makes SZs 55 & 56 extremely precarious for Allied CVs to be able to survive a turn in order to do this.

So India is in a tough spot. How do the Allies get fighters and dive bombers there to help fend off the Japanese?

An airbase in Western Australia or the Northern Territory are options, but that requires the ANZACers to fork up the IPCs to build the airbase.

One thing BB (BuckeyeBoy) came up with was having the British build a CV on B1. The intent at the time for this move was to use it with the rest of the British air and naval units to crash into any smaller Japanese fleets in the DEI, Kamikazie style. In other words, an expendable force to exchange itself with a similar sized Japanese force.

This was so effective, that it resulted in us playing the Japanese fleet and having it not split up at all on J2 to protect Japanese transports taking the rest of the DEI. The Japanese fleet usually moved to SZ42 and protected the one Japanese transport there, and the two Japanese transports taking Sumatra and Borneo were left to their fate after their invasion was completed.

It also had the effect of causing the Japanese to not be able to move their three J1 buy transports to SZ 36 on J2, as this small British Kamikazie force was capable of attacking SZ36.

So the Japanese moved their main fleet minus one CV to Java on J2, and their J1 transports moved to the PI with a CV escort.

That kept Japanese trops from reinforcing Vietnam on J2, easing some pressure on the Chinese who may be fighting for Yunnan.

So the question became what to do with the British force after the Japanese take Singapore.

BB rightly saw that with a British CV in SZ 39, that ANZAC air could use it to transit into India from Australia, anywhere in Australia.

Anyway, I was curious as to what folks thoughts were on the subject of just how do the Allies go about reinforcing India during the course of a game? It’s no easy task, and can make the difference in whether India falls, and therefore the ultimate balance of the OOB rules.

Thoughts anybody? I’m going to go get a beer… :-P

I’ve got vacation next week, and BuckeyeBoy is off from Monday night to Thursday night, so we’ve got another mega game fest planned, and should be able to get in another 4, 5, maybe even 6 games if he kicks my butt quickly, like he usually does! That is, unless I get “lucky dice” again… :-D

@Van_Trump:

Kaufschtick, the Midway threat to Japan IS a feint(unless something presents itself). US true objective should be China, as you surmised.

I wouldn’t exactly call it a feint. What it represents is another thing the Japanese have to defend against. As the US, you don’t want to put all of your offensive “eggs” as it were, in one basket. Part of the Allied goal is to try to spread out the Japanese and make them defend more area than they are capable of doing. So a naval base on Midway forces Japan to keep some naval presence in SZ 6 to prevent US units from passing through and hitting SZ19.

Any position that the Allies, or the US, can take up that forces the Japanese to defend against multiple threats or avenues of attack is key. Just as the Japanese are able to defend island airbases and have their air units force the Allies to commit twice the number of attackers to cover the possibility of the air units defending either the SZ or the land territory. The Allies need to take up possitions that force the Japanese to defend against multiple threats.

Midway is still quite capable of sailing troops down to attack Truk.

I kinda like having the US develope Midway and the Allies getting SZ54 into action. That allows the Allies to spread out the Japanese and still have the option of putting Truk right in the middle of the two bases for a squeeze attack if the Japanese let it get a little weak.

Speaking of Truk, it brings up a good point of how playing US immediate 40 helps the game, and how the OOB rules dont cut it.

In our many games of playing the OOB rules, we’ve had many a game where the Allies have taken Truk. With the OOB rules though, every time this has happened, it has taken all of the Allies collective strength to take Truk, and the win unfortunately leaves the Allies too weakened to take advantage of the situation.

With Truk being just one move from Japan and two moves from the US, the Japanese have always been able to beat the Allies back and retake Truk.

With immediate 40, the Allies, the US in particular, have just enough umph to hang on and and makes taking Truk for the Allies a game winning strategy.

This as opposed to the OOB rules where taking Truk winds up being the Allied victory that costs them the game. :x

@Canuck12:

It’s unfortunate that WOTC couldn’t spot this but it seems to me you are right kauf.

The US is always just 1 turn behind no matter what they do. Having production 1 turn from the theatre is enough of a disadvantage without the income lag.

To return to the previous chess analogy: it seems like the OOB setup is a little like giving the white player 2 moves before the black player gets one.

Thanks for all of your time spent researching the matter… though I wish I had the time and opponenets to log 200 hours of AA in half a year. ;-)

Lets see, my best friend, who goes by Buckeyeboy on here, well, we’ve known each other for damn near 30 years. He works around Dayton, and he’s off again like on the 27th & 28th. So we have yet another potential to game for a couple days.

He recently relocated to Dayton from Columbus, and has the ole’ bachelor pad going. Its too far from Columbus to drive out and back in one day, for the most part. So when I go out, he has a big condo and I just stay over. That way we can booze it up responsibly without having to worry about any driving going on.

So what happens is a butt load of game time! On the 6th & 7th, I went out and got to his place at 7:45pm Monday night, and was there until 7:45pm Wednesday night. I figured we logged about 28 or so game hours!

I think we’re set to do that again in about another week and a half, as I’m hoping to be on vacation that week. I was keeping loose track of our game hours, but we passed the 200hr mark some time ago, and I’ve since lost track.

We’re hoping that we don’t discover a flaw in the immediate 40 that tips things too far the Allied way, but if we do, we’ll just modify the immediate 40 to like…say, immediate 30, bank 10, or something like that for the first US turn.

We’ll see, and we’ll keep playtesting.

Who knows, maybe some intrepid soul will find a good strat for the Allies in the OOB set up that makes that play out better? You never know.

@Van_Trump:

I would normally place the bulk of the Japanese fleet at PI at this point, with maybe a few ships at TRUK and/or Singapore.

After Singapore falls, the Japanese mainly stay at the PI as you say, moving back east when they are set to attack India.

@Van_Trump:

So, 2 turns to reach Japan, unless, of course, the Japanese player blunders and fails to block this very obvious build up with a DD

Those blocks can be a rude shock to the US too.  :evil:

@Van_Trump:

OR

US Player bases his fleet out of a Midway seabase :-D

I like the Midway naval base as a means to get at SZ19, which I think is the Japanese weak spot, not SZ6. The drawback with having too much based at Midway for the US is that it can’t make it to SZ54 in one move. To me, if the US wants to threaten SZ6, then do it from Pearl, and if the Japanese block, the US gets to snack on a DD for every turn the Japanese block.

By my way of thinking, Midway makes the Japanese commit ships to SZ6 to block a possible Midway->SZ16->SZ6->SZ19 US attack. This can be done with just transports. This assault doesn’t require the US to stay and fight on follow on turns either. The transports can be lost. The troops don’t have to stand in place and fend off Japanese counter attacks, they can move inland revitalizing the Chinese.

To me, this is the dagger to the heart the Japanese don’t want to see happen. Americans liberating Chinese territories, which in turn allows Chinese troops to pop up in territories with the US troops.

If US troops can move off the coast in one turn, they are going to be a big factor in freeing Chinese territories, which the Chinese are going to recieve IPCs for on their following turn.

Building an IC in Korea requires the US to hold off Japanese counter attacks, and is too slow to develope.

All the stuff discussed in this thread as far as what the US can do, or should try to do is really stuff. In games we’ve played using the 40 immediate change, it all becomes very relevant strategies.

I mean, the US has to carry the ball as far as the Allied power to take the fight to the Japanese. With only 17 IPCs on turn one, it means the Americans won’t even be able to place a decent force on the board until turn 2, which won’t move to a position of relevance until turn 3!

The Japanese have 3 CVs, 2 BBs, 2 CAs, 4 DDs, 2SSs, 3 trns, 28 freakin’ air units, enough troops in Asia & Japan to do what they need for the first 3 turns. They will spend 126 IPCs in the first 3 turns.

Against this, the US start with a meager 1 CV, 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 DD, 1 trns, 1 SS, 8 air units & 8 land units. This and 17 IPCs is all the US has to take on the Japanese for the first 3 turns.

They will spend 127 IPCs over the first 3 turns, but the first big 55 IPC buy of that won’t even move into position to do anything until turn 3.

By giving the US the 40 immediately, the Japanese only get a free hand for two turns, not three, and it makes a big difference.

@Whackamatt:

Well, it won’t be ruined for me until I’m able to put in as many hours as you in the game.  It’s still fresh and new in my mind, and none in my group know about this strategy.  :evil:

We’re not about to let the game get ruined for us. It’s just a question as to whether or not the OOB set up and rules are worth playing any longer.

rwthe US their 40 IPC national advantage immediately when Japan attacks. Will this be too much? Who knows, but after 7 games, each one has been competitive for both sides and all 7 have been a blast to play. That’s with one easy change.

In the OOB rules, I was also against giving Japan 5 extra IPCs each for controlling India, Sydney and Hawaii. I thought the 5 extra for Hawaii was OK, but the Japanese get all of the countries IPCs on the IPC track when they capture a capital.

My beef was that if India does fall, the Japanese are going to be at 78 IPCs to the US - ANZAC 70. Remember, if India falls, there goes the Burma Road for China. If they aren’t knocked out of the game by then, they woun’t last long without the boost gained from the Burma Road.

So if the game is to continue on after India falling, it isn’t going to be much of a game with Japan bringing in 78 IPCs a turn to the remaining Allies 70.

So my thinking was that if Japan didn’t get the extra 5 a turn for India, then the game would be worth playing on. I felt that the Japanese should only get the 5 extra for hawaii, not India or Sydney.

Also, I though, why in the world do the Japanese need the added advantage of the 6 Kamikazie shots when they have so many advantages already. I thought that needed to go too.

BUT…

In the games where the US gets their 40 IPCs right away, all the above stuff seems to make sense. So by making that one little change, move the US IPC marker up 40 the instant the Japanese attack, we’ve seen the games to be fun for both sides, and everything else in the game made perfect sense, gamewise.

The OOB rules are kinda ruined for us until somebody shows us some strategy that we’ve not seen ourselves for the Allies that makes them competitive.

Talking doesn’t get it, it has to be play tested.

@Van_Trump:

What we desperately need is someone to post the Allied counter moves instead of nebulous assurances of parity.

Japan can afford to make a couple of mistakes, the allies none.

I likened it to a chess match: the winning player (Japan)has any number of imaginative moves and strategies to try. The losing player (Allies) must make one perfect defensive move after another just to survive.

That last line there hits the nail right square on the head.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH

@Whackamatt:

That’s incorrect.  America can get more units there on the same turn they build the factory, because there could be a steady stream of 1-2 transports with protection.  America’s income is 50+, enough to keep some transports moving in, and reinforcements for the fleet that took Korea.

@Whackamatt:

But if they keep the zone, they won’t need to “bust back in.”

You’re suggesting that the US can move into SZ6 and hold it?

Are you suggesting that transports are going to be able to move into SZ6 and reinforce Korea without Japanese air units in Japan having anything to say about it?

Lets look at some facts.

J1=26   IPCs                  
J2=40+ IPCs                  
J3=60+ IPCs
J4=60+ IPCs (usually 65+)
J5=60+ IPCs (Usually 67+)
Total=246 IPCs

US1=17 IPCs
US2=55 IPCs
US3=55 IPCs
US4=55 IPCs
US5=55 IPCs
Total=237

The Japanese start the game with 28 air units, and stand a good chance of loosing a fighter against the British BB at Singapore, leaving them with 27.

The combined Allies start the game with 20 air units, and will loose two of them in the PI on J1, leaving them with 18.

The difference in IPCs between the Japanese air units and the Allies combined is a whopping 100 IPCs.

Consider also that one of the Allied planes is Chinese, 5 are British and vital to them, and 4 more are ANZAC (this is actually extremely useful for the Allies). That leaves the US with 8 air units.

If you think the US are going to go into SZ6, and beat the Japanese air units there (which they might be able to do in the opening turn of combat there), operating from Japan’s airbase, and bring in reinforcements the next turn(s), then I don’t know what to say to you in response other that to say we’re not playing the same game.

@Whackamatt:

I agree that the Japanese can effectively counter most Allied strats, but I disagree that the Allies can never make it up.

It’s not that I want to disagree with you, it’s just that what you’re posting we’ve “been there, done that” already, and it doesn’t work.

It sounds like it could, or should, when discussed though, because we did the same thing. Then we tried it. Then we tried it again when it didn’t work. Then we tried it over again.

Then we tried everything else we could think of, and we came here to see if anyone else had tried something that worked. We tried some stuff from here that we saw, and mixed some of those ideas with our own. Still no luck.

I’m not trying to ruin the game for you or anyone else. We’re just sharing what we’ve experienced with folks here to see what feedback we get. So far it’s not too different from what we’ve played ourselves, which isn’t good, nor what we wanted to find. We’re both long time A&A players, and love the game.

@Lozza007:

I like the sz19 idea but at the end of the day the Allies need to be in a position to fan out and capture all of the money islands (DEI, Philippines, Java etc) with Subs, and then block an additional sea zone outward with Destroyers.  Tricky to say the least!

Lozza007

Out of the box, it’s a lost cause for the Allies.  SZ19 is just something to take if the opportunity presents itself.

Van Trump is the one I saw the idea from. He always advocated a naval base on Midway, from which SZ19 is reachable for the US through SZ6. Its a good move, but the Japanese will see it and block it with a surface ship in SZ6 covered by ample air units. If the US has transports at Midway, and the Japanese block SZ6, those transports can always swing down to attack Truk if there is an opening there.

Anything the Allies do though is counterable by the Japanese. Once the players get good at playing the Japanese side without letting Japans units get picked off willy nilly, then playing the Allies is just an excercise in futility.

@calvinhobbesliker:

That’s why Z54 is the most important zone to the allies

Q.F.T.   :mrgreen:

@Whackamatt:

If you leave your planes on Japan, why can’t America attack Korea instead?  Then build a major IC there the turn after.  You can fall “like a ton of bricks on the US fleet, but you can’t take back Korea with no trannies in range.

No transports in range?

Think about it.

Your US strat is to build an IC in Korea.

On the turn the US strike into SZ6 and take Korea, we’ll call turn A.

An IC gets built on turn B.

Units can finally be built on turn C

The Japanese have two full turns to counter attack Korea before the US can start placing units there. They have a full turn to build transports & units, and move on board units into the SZ which will cut off the Americans from outside  reinforcements, and Korea will fall before the US IC can start building stuff.

The Japanese player will probably get your next beer from the fridge for you though, as it’s the least they can do to repay the favor the US did for Japan by buying them an IC in Korea.

The US doesn’t have the strength to bust into the zone, recover from the Japanese counter attack (there will be a Japanese counter attack), and then bust back in all over again on consecutive turns.

Japan does.

The Japanese can place units straight into the battle.

The US has to bring them in from two turns away, telescoping their intentions

The problem with the Korean strat, is the same problem with the “take Truk” strat, which is the same problem as all the other Allied strats. The Japanese just have too much to start with, and the Allies never can make it up.

The huge advantage in at start air units and the airbase on Japan make an IC in Korea nothing more than pipe dreams for the Allies.

The SZ to go after as the US is SZ19. It borders 4 territories worth 9 IPCs to the Chinese, which will bring China back into the game. Those Allied units can then move inland immediately to take back more Chinese territory and move away from Japanese counter attacks. Then the Allies don’t have to stand in there and fight toe to toe with the Japanese in SZ19. The Allies can shift their attacks to other areas of the board, keeping the Japanese spread out and chasing them.

Jab and move, jab and move. The Allies won’t win a punching match with the Japanese until the Japanese have been whittled down a bit, and that is no easy task against a good player.

@kungfujew:

Your plan stated that you’re leaving your fleet based in Malaya.

Never said that I’d keep it there.

@kungfujew:

If you’re using your airforce to take India on turn X, then they are well out of range to threaten an American fleet in sea zone 6 that just landed 7 units and an AA gun in Korea also on turn X.

Never said I’m using my air force to take India. I’ve seen India go down mostly with CV air, bombers, off shore attacks and a fair amount of amphibious and land units. Depends on the game though…

Last game-fest we played, one game saw India go down on J5. Normally this doesn’t happen until about J7 or later.

J1 Japan takes the PI & Celebes
J2 they take the rest of the DEI (they’re at 60+ IPCs at this point)
J3 they take Singapore
J4 they build a major IC there
J5 the first batch of stuff shows up, with a lot just to consolidate gains (worse case)
J6 the first load of troops exclusively headed for India shows up (worse case)
J7 they move to Shan State
J8 to Burma
J9 the Japanese will have combined an amphibious assault (sometimes mech inf. follow up the first wave of men headed to India) and India is done, at the latest turn 10.

Then its Japan 78 IPCs, Allies 70 IPCs.

But like I said, it depends on the game. The Allies have enough strength to attack, but not enough to counter attack. The Japanese do, so they can take advantage of Japanese won battles (and Allied won battles) by having enough left the next turn to develope what ever the situation happens to be.

We’ve had plenty of games where the Allies have taken Truk, but were so weakened in doing so that they effectively lost the game.

Both sides have to be able to win a major battle, and then have enough the next turn to take advantage of the situation.

In the DEI, as soon as the Japanese get a major IC in Singapore, they can get reinforcements to that region way before the Allies, who are relying on them to come all the way from San Fransico, 3 moves away.

The Japanese can exchange fleets with the Allies, build a new one the next turn in Singapore, right where the action is. San Fransico is a long way off, and the US come in piecemeal.

A good Japanese player will screw with the ANZAC bonus income by taking one of the Solomons too from time to time. They can hit either side of New Guinea from Singapore. Sometimes a DD will move down to Truk with a suicide transport bound for New Britain and take advantage of the air cover from Truks airbase and planes.

The Japanese have enough, and are able to build enough as the game progresses, to move steadily toward India, defend Truk & Japan (SZ6), squeeze out China, and screw with the Allies in the Solomons (the ANZAC bonus islands).

@kungfujew:

Plus, assuming a balanced American fleet

@kungfujew:

Then, assuming there are also subs and your returning fleet

Don’t assume, you know what happens then…

@kungfujew:

Assuming the Americans stay out of trouble (which they probably won’t)

Yeah…

But there’s just too much assuming going on here.

You know as well as I do that the game takes on it’s own personality after just a few turns.

@kungfujew:

As the allies, always try to set up a 1-2 maybe even 3 punch with India, ANZAC and the US.

You can try what you want as the Allies. It doesn’t change the fact that the Japanese start the game way air heavy over the Allies. That the Japanese can take the PI, the DEI, Singapore, and on to India smartly without taking heavy casualties.

It doesn’t change the fact that Japan can go 26 IPCs J1, 40 IPCs J2, and then be at 60+ IPCs J3 & on.

It doesn’t change the fact that Britian will go 16 IPCs B1, 13 IPCs B2, 9 IPCs B3, and then be at 5 or less IPCs from then on.

It doesn’t change the fact that Japan can take out China and only need to divert a few fighters and/or dive bombers by using their strategic bombers smartly.

It doesn’t change the fact that Japan will be able to match the US and ANZAC buys early on, and then out buy them after India is done.

The biggest factor for an Allied win OOB is a poor or ineperienced Japanese player. Against a good Japanese player, it just ain’t going to happen unless there is a blue moon. :-)

Or unless the Japanese player has drunk too many Blue Moons.  :-D

@kungfujew:

P.S.
Go out and find the game TACTICS II.  It’s awesome.

Tactic II was a good game for it’s time, which unfortunately was a little before my time (but not by much). By the time I got into Avalon Hill hot and heavy, Blitzkreig had been released, which was the “upgrade” or “revision” to Tactics II. I did however, buy Tactics II (and just about every other A_H WWII game I could lay my hands on) and owned it a long time ago. I played a few games, but like I said, Blitzkreig just blew it away, especially when you used all the optional rules (like the air rules, and the upgraded naval rules that came out in The General).

I traded most of the the old games I didn’t play anymore in at the local gameshop here in town a long, long time ago though. A buddy of mine kept all of his, he still has Tactics II!

@kungfujew:

P.P.S.
I don’t know how you guys play China, but I can’t figure out how people think it’s a pushover.  I always make them do extremely well or make the Japs spend way too many plastic lives on taking them out.

Depends on what the Japanese do, but it doesn’t matter either way. Defend Yunnan or go north. If the Japanes park their strat bombers in Hong Kong, Kwangsi or Vietnam, they can reach out and touch the Chinese (and the British and anyone else who strays too near). That, along with 2/3 fighters and or dive bombers is enough to do in the Chinese.

I even built a minor IC in Hong Kong, or was it Kwangsu (doesn’t matter) one game as insurance, and didn’t even need it. It was a 12 IPC win for the Allies as it was 12 wasted IPCs for the Japanese, who won the game anyways.

The Japanese are going… or should I say, they can start building fighters on J2. Truk gets defended with…again… I should say, Truk can be defended by Japanese air units. If the US moves on Japan, these air units are available to return to SZ 6 and attack any US ships there after an attack on Korea and land in Japan. The Japanese are…dang it!!… They can defend Japan with fairly numerous air units as well with just a modest amount of new fighters being built each turn.

I never said the Japanese fleet stays in SZ37.  They go there when they’re ready to take out India sure, but the PI is where they go if there’s nothing else to pounce on at the moment.

Hell, I’ve seen the Japanese with 5 CVs by J4 before. When they are spending 60+ IPCs by J3 (that is a given), you better believe they are going to have something to say about the US making a move into SZ6, AND have enough to be getting ready to trottle the British in India.

And that’s the main problem with the game. The Japanese start out heavily advantaged in units, then zoom to an equal income level with the Allies in just two turns, as the Allies collective income is dropping like a rock in China & with the British.

By the time the US have collected up enough strength to throw a single punch at the Japanese, the Japanese are waiting with a double combination counter punch. Then it’s downhill from there.

There is a reason why there are no effective Allied Strategies being discussed on here, or on any forums.

It’s because the Japanese can counter anything the Allies can do.

And once the Japanese player gets the hang of what he/she is doing, then it’s hopeless for the Allies.

The Allies may out dice the Japanese once in a while. Or catch them making a bad move. But when the Japanese progresses to the point that they know what to do to win, and go about it smartly, you’re just wasting your time as the Allied player.

You take two equally skilled players and have them play a number of games, and you’re going to see the Japanese side start to dominate the win column.

Not the mark of a good game, or at least one that was well play tested anyway…

@calvinhobbesliker:

Kauf, I posted your strat on Harris’s site, and here’s a reply I got:
Calvinhobbesliker,

So how does taking India win you the game? On J6, you have infantry that can hit most of Australia…but you still don’t have India yet. Plus it’s 5 full turns for Australia to reinforce, and for America to help them. The real question is, once India falls, what do you have left to take Sydney or Hawaii?

When India falls, and China is all but finished, all you have to be able to do is add. If that guy can’t do that, he can buy a calculator.

If China is down to one territory, the Japanese will be sitting on a major IC in Singapore, with 77 IPCs a turn. US and ANZAC IPCs will be at 70.

@calvinhobbesliker:

US1: Buy 2 transports.
US2: Buy 2 battleships, 1 transport, 1 infantry, 1 artillery
US3: Buy 2 battleships, 1 Aircraft Carrier
US4: Move fleet to Hawaii
US5: Attack Japan

Attack Japan on US 5 with 4 transports!?! I’d leave my about 15 a/c on the island and avoid the sea battle, easily defeating the land attack. Then on my next turn I’d fall like a ton of bricks on that US fleet. Game over. On turn 3 the Japanese are earning 60+ IPCs, if the US spends the whole first 5 turns telescoping their move like that, why bother playing?

The US is going to spend 20 per BB, and as Japan, I’ll match his BBs with 2 fighters, or maybe a ftr & dive bomber. When the $hit hits the fan, I’ll be getting twice as many shots in combat as the US player.

BBs just aren’t cost effective.

@calvinhobbesliker:

Japan’s starting fleet can’t counter that.

Does this guy think the Japanese don’t bother buying anything for the first 5 turns?!? Gimme a freakin’ break, that’s nothing more than pipe dreaming there. I could even wonder whether that guy has ever played the game!?!

@calvinhobbesliker:

The UK needs to move the Malaya stack back to India. Japan has enough airforce to incinerate them, so I’d rather move them back to the fighter cover.

They’ll never make it back unless you move them out right on B1, leaving Singapore wide open and giving the Japanese a nice present along with their major IC a full turn earlier without even having to loose one troop. Those troops will come back and bite the Allies in the a$$.

Once Britian is bottled up in India and the Japanese park a couple subs off the coast…

@calvinhobbesliker:

A third factor is China. You’ve made no mention of reinforcing them, or placing a minor factory on the mainland. I suppose that if you don’t reinforce it there, you’ll have more money for India and the US fleet, however, after several turns of neglect, China will start to threaten your hold on Kiangsu and Kwangtung.

There are a lot of things that Japan has to do, I’ve yet to see China threaten Hong Kong. A 12 IPC minor IC is all that Japan would need to help in China in a worse case scenario. I mean, come on, the Japanese have loads of air assets vs men only.

@calvinhobbesliker:

There is a counter to everything, especially in the void of a forum. Yes, Japan has a sizeable starting force, but they can’t be everywhere on the board at once.

But they can be everywhere they need to be to win the game. It’s the Allies that can’t be everywhere they need to be to even get into the game.

@jim010:

I’m 90% sure of that as well, but there’s still that 10% - which is why I try to get games going to see if something fleshes out.

A buddy of mine and myself have gutted out well over 150 hours of game play trying to find that “magic move”, so if you find it, be sure and let the rest of the world know! :-D

@jim010:

Kauf - your idea sounds like it may grind out a few more Jap planes.  If I have less than a dozen planes, I find that I can’t take Sydney by turn 7.  Care to try it?

Cheers

Oh hell no, the Allies are a lost cause in AAP40! :-o :lol:

One thing you can do as the Allies to throw a curve ball at the Japanese is to build a CV for the British on B1. On ANZAC 1, save at least 6 IPCs and lay down a CV on ANZAC2 in SZ62. If you move the US at start fleet to New Zealand on US2 from Pearl, and move the British fleet to SZ56 on B2, then the Japanese have a dilema on J3, as the US fleet in New Zealand, and whatever air the US may have in Australia, can counter-attack SZ56 from New Zealand. The ANZACers can follow up with a smaller, part two, counter-attack in their portion of the third turn as well, from SZ 62.

When the British make the move from SZ39 to SZ56, they can swap out their fighters for ANZACer fighters if they wish, leaving India strong.

J3 is generally the turn in which the Japanese will want to take Singapore to get ready for the major IC there on J4, and will have to face the fact that if they wish to take out the British fleet before it links up with the rest of the Allied CVs in SZ54, they’ll have to divert carrier air from the assault on Singapore to conduct an air assault on the British fleet. If the Japanese try to take on the British with Navy, the US and ANZACers are positioned to counter attack.

If the US buys a CV on US1, and it is at Pearl on US2, and Japanese let the British fleet go by on J3, then the Allies can put the British fleet, the ANZAC CV + DD in SZ62, the US fleet at New Zealand, and the US CV at Pearl all in SZ54 on turn 3.

The Allies will then have a strong defensive position in SZ54 to attack out of in later turns.

The main problem with this is that while a multinational fleet may be great on defense, it isn’t too terribly good on offense…at least until the US can pour more units into that SZ.

@Hobbes:

You could also drill a hole and use those red pins of a Battleships board game that are used to mark hits. Or just stick a match on it and lit it up. The smoke would make a realistic effect  :-D

LOL!!! :-D :-D

I like the match idea! :lol: Then we could light our cigars from them! :lol:

I went out to Dayton last week, my best friend Tim and I (he goes by Buckeyeboy on here) played 6 games of AAP40 from Monday around 7:30 to Wednesday around 7:30. Drank lots of beer, ate many “Lucky Sandwhiches”, and I got to see just how huge the AK Steel plant down there is.

Of the 6 games we played, 5 we played by giving the US their 40 bonus IPCs “immediately” on the turn the Japanese attacked, which was turn 1.

The last time I was out there, we played 3 games by giving the US the 40 IPC bonus immediately, and all three games went into the mid game turns as anybodies game. We stopped there because we wanted to reset and see if the next game would yield similar results. All three games did.

Our aim was to see if by giving the US the 40 IPC bonus immediately, if it would balance the game any. So we were kinda playtesting the idea.

This time around, we played the games just a little further longer, until we could sorta see that one side or the other had gained an advantage, and had the upper hand.

After the first 4 games this time around, we played two that had the Allies having gained a clear advantage, and two where the Japanese had gained the upper hand.

They were all great games too, plenty of battles with both sides in the game.

Then I had the great idea to try playing the game as the Allies agian with the OOB rules. That game went just as every other game we’d played with the OOB rules, the Japanese rolled while the Allies just kinda sat on the sidelines, never really getting into the game full swing.

Then we went back to the “immediate 40”, and had probably the best game yet. We played it to a complete standstill, and ran out of time. It was anybodies guess as to who was going to gain an edge in that game. The last turn we played saw a huge naval battle in SZ37 which saw the annihilation of both fleets involved, which included 3 CVs per side!

Anyway, a pretty good playtest session. 5 games using the “immediate 40” meathod, and they went 2 Allied, 2 Japanese and 1 undetermined tie.

The problem we found with the OOB rules was that the Japanese could attack J1 taking the PI & taking the Celebes. On J2 they took the rest of the DEI. On J3 they took Singapore, and built a major IC there on J4.

By turn 4, both China and Britian were down to earning 4-5 IPCs each, with China nearing elimination in the game. The Japanese would play extremely smart up to that point in the game, conserving it’s forces and not giving the Allies any cheap victories.

Once this point in the game was reached, the Japanese were pulling in 65+ IPCs to the US & ANZACs 65-70 IPCs, and the Japanese were matching US-ANZAC buys. The US-ANZAC forces still hadn’t come even close at that point to making up the gap in strength the Japanese start the game with, and so the game stumbles forward into its end game with the Allies fighting an uneven match.

We played well over 150 hours of the game using the OOB rules trying to figure out how to stop this strategy as the Allies. The game really was no fun to play as the Allies. You even knew what the Japanese were going to do each game, yet there was nothing the Allies could do about it. We came up with some really imaginative Allied moves, but the Japanese start with enough pieces to counter anything the Allies did.

By giving the US their 40 bonus IPCs immediately as soon as the Japanese attack, the game takes on a whole new feel. The Allies are suddenly fun to play.

Most important of all, the Allies can do some serious damage if the Japanese just plod along doing the same thing every game. For the very first time, as the Japanese, we’ve suddenly been watching the Allied moves with a close eye and starting to formulate counter moves to the Allies!

So we’ve played 8 games now with the immediate 40 change, and every game has been a good one.