Posts made by HolKann

@Cmdr:

Likewise, I don’t know how they get 45 IPC for a technology.  LL rules stipulate that if you attack with 6 infantry, then you get 1 hit no matter what.  Likewise, if you roll 6 dice for one technology, you should get one hit, no matter what.  6 Dice cost 36 IPC.

Hmm, there’s a small difference between tech and battles: for tech it doesn’t matter if one throws four 1’s, or one 1, the result is the same. This is not so for most battles: four hits are not the same as one hit. If you attack with 6 infantry, assuming the opponent has also got a few units, the average hit after doing this battle a zillion times will even out to 1. This is because the times one did’nt throw a 1 is compensated by the times one threw multiple 1’s. If one’s throwing 6 dice for tech, the average to not throw a 1 is roughly 33%, and is not compensated by throwing more 1’s at other tries, because tech doesn’t work that way. So one will only be succesful 2/3 of the time when playing ADS, and LL wishes to keep those game mechanics the same, while reducing the effects of dice.
The rule you suggest is simply a bad rule. I’m quite reluctant to play with it, but if you insist, we’ll use it.
The other rules you suggest, I can live with, they’re not much further from the original game than the ones I’m used to. Ow, and how would you like the rules heavy bombers (especially if techs are going to be cheap  :wink: )

@ Ashkayel: It’s an interesting game we’re playing, I’m not sure who’s on the winning side now…

@Cmdr:

@HolKann:

All@Cmdr:

If you let me know what you want to buy with that cash, I’ll start a new thread in the play games area and roll out Russia’s first turn.

All right, m gonna go 1 inf 1 rtl  in Lib, 1 ipc to Jap. Where can I find the reference rules? Are these (http://www.daak.de/lowluck/lowluckregel.php?sprache=e) allright? Anyways, good luck! (though we won’t need that  8-) )

Looks okay, however just to clarify a couple of things, here’s how I see some of the optionals as listed:

1)  You can roll for a tech with success (attempts purchased)/6  That means if you buy 6 attempts (36 IPC) you are guaranteed the technology you want.  However, you can purchase two attempts if you want too and have a 33% chance of getting the technology.  You may not purchase the technology in parts.  If you buy 5 rolls and roll a 6, you would still need to buy 6 rolls to get a 100% chance of success.

2)  SBR:  Attacker does 3 to 4 IPC in damage per attack.  Defender does 2 to 3 IPC in damage to the bomber.  (On a roll of 1, 2 or 3 take the lesser number, on a roll of 4, 5 or 6 take the larger number.)

Shoot, seems I gave a link for AA2nd instead of AAR: http://www.daak.de/aarll/aarllregel.php?sprache=e . There’s not much difference, except for SBR and techs, which are similar to yours, but better clarified and I like them more. You need 45 IPC’s for a sure technology, and the SBR depends on the country’s value and whether an AA-gun is present, which seems logical and better in accord with the ADS rules. Give them a read, and tell me if we can use those.

Not clearly explained is what happens when both fighters and bombers fly over AA. Can the attacker choose which one(s) take(s) the hit(s), or does one roll for both fighters and bombers apart (for instance: 5 ftr and 1 bmr are getting shot at by AA. Does the defender have a hit on 5- for the fighters and a hit on 1- for the bomber (thus with a 2 hit possiblity)? Or does he have a sure hit and the attacker gets to choose on which airplane? Or does one roll a d6 in this case (6 => hit on bomr, 5- => hit on ftr)?) It’s the same to me, but it has to be clarified beforehand ofcourse…

Anyway, I’m looking forward on capturing Moskva without the need for luck ;)

All@Cmdr:

If you let me know what you want to buy with that cash, I’ll start a new thread in the play games area and roll out Russia’s first turn.

All right, m gonna go 1 inf 1 rtl  in Lib, 1 ipc to Jap. Where can I find the reference rules? Are these (http://www.daak.de/lowluck/lowluckregel.php?sprache=e) allright? Anyways, good luck! (though we won’t need that  8-) )

Owkay, let’s give this a try:
Rolls: 4@3; Total Hits: 24@3: (4, 1, 3, 6)
Great, it works!
But how does one prevent editing?

@Cmdr:

I guess we could do 9 IPC, but then I’d request 50/50 for Germany/Japan break as you want it.

Owkey, I’m gonna try one last time, cuz there’s no way I’m only taking 7 as the axis. I’ll take up the challenge with an 8 IPC bid, of which minimum 1 will go to Japan. If this is too much to prove your point, then so be it :)

Owkey, since I think most of you guys live on the other end of the world making it difficult to have a real discussion responding to each other, I’ve made a little list of what I read so far in this topic, and I’ll comment on each a bit:

arguments con:

LL is a formula, ADS a strategy
LL makes strategies feasible that aren’t going to make it in AdS
LL makes strategies that are 50% in ADS 100% in LL
=> comment: Let’s make a difference between tactical TRICKS and strategical PLANNINGS. The 3 sentences above are talking about tactics: if I attack his 14 inf or go Sea Lion… I admit that tactics are different (not a lot, but enough to matter) in LL than in ADS. That’s just thinking a bit more radical in LL games than ADS games. But if we’re talking about strategies, both ADS and LL are the same: G’s strategy is to build up stacks of arm+inf on the eastern borders to eventually try to attack Mos,  J is pushing inland to raise pressure on R, UK and US are both trying to land units in Asia/Europe to relief pressure on R. Strategies are long-term plans and don’t differ between LL/ADS. Tactics are tricks of the moment that have to be avoided or executed in order to get an edge. Tactics do differ from LL to ADS. If that’s good or bad, I don’t know.

LL SBR’s are always good
=> Since one cann’t loose it’s bomber, it’s always a good idea to go SBR in LL. True. As, theoretically, it’s always a good idea to go SBR in ADS. However, the difference between throwing a 1 and not throwing a 1 is 18,5 Ipc’s, just for one die. I think this is ridiculous and can ruin a game. SBR is broken in ADS: imagine an oppo who goes heavy on SBR, and succeeds a lot because of good dice, so you get IPC crippled and loose the game. There’s nothing one can do against this strat, except hoping for good dice. This is not the kind of game I like to play, because it’s nothing else than roullette if played this way. That’s the flaw in ADS: mediocre or bad strategies are possible when backed up by good dice. This happens not a lot, but enough to either think you won undeserved (=not good), or you lost undeserved (=not good). If half of the games one plays are not good, I don’t like the game. LL fixes this.

LL is easier and requires less skill
LL is ‘calculable’
=> True, LL is calculable (in the sense of more predictable), and requires less ADS-skill (calculating chances). But it requires more LL-skill (planning, looking ahead). I don’t think Chess players will agree chess (=LL) requires less skill than warhammer 40K (=ADS). It just requires a different skill.

Axis cann’t realistically win in a LL game without vastly inflating the bid.
I don’t know, I only played one LL game (with allies), and I enjoyed it a lot (and won).

pro:
LL is an easy way to get insight in battle mechanics
LL speeds up games
LL vastly reduces the bad dice syndrome
=> no comments on pro, since I’m on the pro side  :-D

@Cmdr:

A) 10 IPC to the Axis is too high in any game, IMHO.  7-9 is the limit and I only bid 9 when I want to be the allies.

Anyway, the offer still stands.  Battlemap, in house dicey, LL rules (LL for SBR too) and you get 7, maybe 8 IPC. (I’ll entertain 8 IPC if you want a transport in the Med, otherwise you get 7 IPC for ground units or just plain old cash for round 1.)

If 10 is too high, why don’t you wanna play axis then? (this is the whole point of having a bidding system  :| ) But I’m willing to adapt: 9 IPC to axis, from which 7 for ground units, owkey?

Off topic: where do I find more information on that in house dicey thing, and on the LL-rules used in this board?

@Cmdr:

Worse than that.  LL allows you to take risks you otherwise would shy away from because you KNOW the worst that can happen to you after one round of battle is you are one units lower then you expected, at best you are one units up and your opponent is one unit down.

You would be surprised at how dicey LL games still are. It’s LOW luck, not NO luck. Imagine every round you are one unit up and your opponent is one unit down, the battle lasts for, say, 4 rounds. Take in account the fact that every round depends on all previous rounds, and the battle isn’t as predictable as one might perceive. For the moment, I’m playing an oppo who’s really pissed of by LL dice, so it’s not all that predictable…

But it’s true, one can take more risks (or better: what would be much more risky in ADS), but what’s wrong with that? If you think the battle favors you, why not do it?

@Cmdr:

With that change alone I win almost every LL game I play.  Why?  Because I have no problem sending 6 bombers to attack your AA Gun, I’ll only lose one, I’ll never lose 5.  Likewise, I know I can hit you with 6 Infantry, 24 tanks and get 13 hits every time.  That means if you have 14 units present, I can always retreat 1 or 2 infantry and every last tank I have.  In ADS that’s not going to be true necessarily.  Maybe you get 7 or 8 hits in ADS?  Maybe I screw up and get 14 or 15 hits taking the ground when I didnt want too?

Well, in LL your opponent just made a huge mistake placing those inf there. But in Ads, I don’t think if you just wiped 13 inf from the map and you have 24 (!) tanks left, your opponent is going to be able to retaliate. And just grabbing 13 inf almost for free would be the most lucrative battle I ever fought. It’s a bit of an extreme example. I suppose in ADS you just leave the 13 inf be, just because you might get 7 hits and your tanks would be in a bad spot? At what odds would you take a battle then? If it’s at about 90%? Or 99%? The chances of an undeserved loss are still pretty high. And do you think it should be possible to defend yourself from a 24 tank dash with a lousy 13 inf? I believe the game is broken if that’s possible…

But as you say yourself, Allies win all the time, then give Axis a better bid.
Here’s my challenge: Axis get 10 IPC to purchase units or keep for themselves, I play either side, you’re allowed to choose side, DAAK rulings.

@Cmdr:

And my position is that LL changes that game mechanics to such a degree it is no longer the same game.  Kinda like Siamese Chess is not really the same as Chess.

Not true, Siamese chess is much more different from normal chess: 2x as much units, 2x bigger board, waay lesser time to think, and pieces are never really lost; they just reappear on the other board. Let’s compare LL to chess and ADS to chess with tossing coins if you capture a piece: by tails you also loose the capturing piece. Noone’s ever gonna capture with his queen again :D

Off-topic: Siamese chess rulezz!! Endless offers, relenting attacks, formidable pawn structures and genial counters which can change the odds in the blink of an eye.

@DarthMaximus:

@HolKann:

Hmm, what’s up with the quoting system over here?

You can either hit the “quote” reply button (in upper right corner of message) or when replying you can scroll through the previous messages and hit “insert quote”.  You can do this as many times as you like so you can splice the quote up or eliminate all the information that doesn’t correspond to your response.

Aha, got it, tnx for explaining and -@dezrtfish- editing that last post of mine.

If you hit Anglo-Egypt with 2 inf 1 art 1 tank 1 bomber and you fail, well, that’s tough luck, kid.  You shoulda used a bid.

The boxed rules don’t come with a bid. And real man don’t need to change the rules. (Which counts me out as a real man, 'cuz I like better rules than the ones out of the box.)

REAL men use manly bids and manly, manly dice rolls.

Or REAL men are wussies for not being able to play without bids.

You’ve got to learn to DEAL with the bad stuff, that’s how you become a great player.

And once you are a great player? What happens next? The game becomes just your random roulette, hoping the dice will favour you and not your opponent, who’s doing only the blatantly obvious, but has every luck doing it.

If you hit Anglo-Egypt with 2 inf 1 art 1 tank 1 bomber and you fail, well, that’s tough luck, kid.

You can also use an extra fighter, and obtain the same result…

What, in a real war, you’re never going to have any nasty surprises?

True. Ever seen a grey and a red soldier throw with dice before deciding who get’s to shoot who? Ever seen an American soldier in Washington and a Japanese pilot in Kyoto at the same time? Ever seen a battleship immediately repairing itself after having been shot aside by some HM Whatshername? It’s a game! It’s supposed to be fun, not realistic. Otherwise the Axis shouldn’t be allowed to win any game, 'cuz in the real war, didn’t they lose?

You don’t become a great player by saying “wah!  they . . . they threw the ball and it hit me in the nose, and I’m BLEEDING, mommy, I’m BLEEDING!”

I have to give you credit on this, you managed to type out a statement with which is constructive and completely true.
You become a good player by remembering how the ball got in your face. And next time, you will see the ball coming, and you will be able to avoid it. Unless ofcourse, there’s that magical touch of the dice, allowing your manly opponent to score 5 hits with his AA gun, leaving you only with your bomber against a british fighter armada in Moskva. Sounding familiar? Was your opponent happy he won that way? Were you happy you lost that way? Didn’t you -if only for a single moment- wish the outcome had been more fair? Or did you, with a smile on your face, congratulate your opponent and concluded he had won by his superior strategical planning and his tactical wit?

Ah, whatever, one has to play the game one likes to play…

Hmm, what’s up with the quoting system over here? And sry for the lengthy post, I got dragged away ;)

I fixed your post it was hurting my head… dezrtfish

Do your worst :p

But seriously, do you really like it when you attack Egy on G1 and you don’t conquer it? (happens all too often in a no-bidding/normal game) Or you attack 6 inf with 8 inf, 1 coastal BB, 1 rtl and 1 bmr, and you take 4 hits but deal none in the first round of combat? If that’s true faith, then I’m a heretic :)

Owkey, I registered just to take up the challenge. LL really takes the greatest flaw out of this game.
@ cmdr Jennifer: I assume you mean 7 IPC starting units and 7 IPC income for the axis?
Battlemap is fine, but what’s In House Dicey? I’ve always been playing with DAAK dicey servers…