i am merely going to pick whichever name generates the least confusion from regular non-expert people
World War II v4 1942 SE
This is the most confusing because the maps are different but I’d assume it would just be a variation of the v4 and not that it needed to be downloaded.
Hey, Hobbes, any chance of translating NOs/7 powers/1941 setup into 42.2? =)
Working on it ;)
@Cow:
@hobbes, yeah sea lion did work sometimes. you could almost always get 30%ish or take the fleet to the medit sea or conduct operation hollywood.
I know they can work but Sea Lion, Hollywood, Polar Express or any KAF/KBF strat depends too much on the element of surprise and confusion on the opponent’s side. On the example given so far it’s just suicidal for the Allies to build an UK1 IC on India if Germany buys all naval and the worst strategy since as Allies you want the Axis to go naval instead of using those IPCs against Russia.
Aw, you’re making too much math out of it. You said so yourself that losing the 4inf wouldn’t be so bad, as long as you win the naval battle. If you win the Naval battle and are able to come away with a ship or two, that in itself is a true victory. And only the India Transport is going to be reliable if you fail, so why not. You may never get a second chance
Losing the ground assault isn’t so bad because at least you eliminated the J fleet, even though now you have 2 less infantry to defend India. Losing the UK fleet and those 4 infantry is a disaster because India will fall soon.
Did everyone already give up on putting the game on the line on the E.Indies UK/Japan fight in UK1 (66%)? Leaving that Japan fleet alive just seems to be a bad idea to me.
With 66% odds, attacking it may turn out to be a bad idea as well ;)
bad experience with similar battles? as you said before…don’t let the past bad defeats affect your strat… :-D
Well, you have to win 2 battles one with 66%, the other with 70% odds, which gives you 46% chance of that happening.
It isn’t so bad if you’d lose the ground assault, but if you lose the naval combat then those 4 infantry on those transports can’t be offloaded on non-combat if you retreat (because they were loaded on combat move) so you’ll lose both the naval combat and those transports/infantry to Japanese attack on J1.
And then India is ripe for Japan to take…
That’s creepy odds to me :mrgreen:
Hobbes, instead of going naval, why not hit the EI with the two transports after the battle on UK1…its a 76% battle (4inf vs. 2inf).
Yup… have noticed it… but the odds creep me even more there
I thought about using the CV FTR, but I can’t remember if the CV is sacked in the Naval battle, if the FTR can be used in the amphib (it will get sacked either way, question is when it does). The amphib is at 98%, but the Naval battle is only 33%. If you take EI, you will have it for a guarantee of two turns, and if the US is on KJF as well, Japan can’t risk retaking EI on J2 knowing the US fleet can take out Phillipines or Borneo US2. In the meantime for turn 3, Russia sends its small stacks to hit the North (5inf at Buryatia) and Middle (2tanks/4inf), with India coming from the South? I think the numbers/odds for allies increases this way, but I could be mistaken.
The more you send with Russia, the quicker Germany will move for the kill.
I need to try this as Allies and see how long I can prevent Germany from wiping Russia… timing is everything here.
I have never seen a J2 conquer of India so far on any of my games and I don’t believe it to be something possible, unless both SZ37 and and the transport on SZ61 are intact.
Otherwise for a J2 you’ll have a max of you’ll have 7 ground units, plus 7 planes plus the bombardment but that just puts severe limits on Japan’s ability to hit anything else on J1. And the UK should have something like 9 ground units, plus 2/3 fighters, plus whatever help the Russians/US can spare and from a quick glance the odds should favor the defenders, plus if Japan lose there’s no units for a follow up attack.
So im running the numbers here after the last game i just played as allies. If i try to take out the Japanese units in SZ37 i will have 13 attack + first round sub attack that hits 33% of the time VS 14 defense. It feels like if i don’t hit with the sub on the first round of combat I’m screwed. Which is what happened to me last game when i played allied. I ended up retreating with 1 CV, 1 CA, and 2 TRN with 2 INF from Australia back to SZ35, dropping the INF in India.
According to the rules you can’t during non-combat offload units that were loaded during combat, so you couldn’t have dropped them on India.
All i was able to destroy was 2 fighters, which japan easily replaced with the 2 fighters from the mainland on their J1. So now i have the japanese fleet in SZ36 with 2BB, 2CV, 4FTR, 1CA, 2DD, 2 TRN. Thy have 4 INF, 2 ART, 1TNK in Burma, while i have 6INF and the US FTR from Szechwan. I can maybe get 2 FTR for defense my turn before they invade, but do i put them on my CV, or in India? Is there any possible way you can keep the british fleet in the Indian Ocean alive? It doesn’t seem possible. Do i just kamakazi it on the Japanese units in SZ37 and say “screw the british fleet” and just stock up on INF and FTR’s in India?
J2 will bring 7INF, 2ART, 1TNK. 16attack vs my 16defense? And that’s IF japan doesn’t use it’s BB, CA, FTR, or Bomber.It just seems like no matter what you do, it is always going to end up being a coin flip, and i hate playing games that i end up winning or losing based on a coin flip.
There’s 5 UK infantry on India/Persia/Burma, plus 3 new builds, plus 5 fighters (excluding the Russian ones) and 1 UK bomber. You can also leave the carrier behind to prevent the battleship shot.
What are the odds of a 40% victory following a 60-70% victory, around 25%? Sure it’s possible, but unlikely. Are you really going to PLAN on this? I wouldn’t. I try not to plan on anything less than 80%
Plus you still have to contend with 4-5 more subs per turn. You can’t beat them AND make transports/other land support naval units.
On a KJF the US only needs to build 1 additional transport on US2, all of the money goes naval (fighters, carriers, subs, destroyers) until you prevent Japan from reconquering Borneo/E. Indies and build an IC there. Until you defeat the Japanese fleet you don’t build any more transports.
Also you are now talking about being on Round 4, and only taking Borneo. Germany is about 2-4 turns from ending this game.
Well, you get the IC on Borneo working on US3, so on US4 you could have a 1st transport ready of troops to kick Japan out of Asia or not, depending on the situation. But the major thing effect of defeating the Japanese fleet is now that India should be secure and can start sending help to the Russians.
But at this point it’s really speculation… I need to try this, there’s a LOT of potential moves, some on the previous posts (I’d buy fighters/bombers instead of subs as Japan… from my experience on 1st Edition the Allies will eventually prevail on the Pacific and planes have a bigger reach and are more useful to harass the US transports on Asia) and the odds are… well, there will be ways to make them better on each situation.
@Cow:
Also it allows germany to do sea lion and actually be a threat to london, so you might see some different games here and there.
I hope you are not claiming that Sea Lion works on Revised… ROFL :D
I did it once… Only once… But it was GLORIOUS!!! They never saw it coming. G2 takes Brittan… Game over. YAY AXIS!
Well I did it once too and even conquered the Western US once or twice… all usually against new players… the point is that it depends on very bad mistakes by the Allies.
@Cow:
Also it allows germany to do sea lion and actually be a threat to london, so you might see some different games here and there.
I hope you are not claiming that Sea Lion works on Revised (since it’s the last game with the old rule)… ROFL :D
See I’m not going to DEFEND Borneo. I’m going to leave my newly built subs in SZ60 and my starting navy of 1BB, 2DD, 1AC, 2FTR, 1CA, and 1SS (assuming SZ37 is mutually destroyed by UK SZ35/39 units) in SZ35 off the coast of India. Then i wait until US decides where to attack. Lets say you take Borneo, now i attack with my starting navy, plus 5 subs. US loses and i still have my entire fleet minus 3-4 subs.
The wonderful thing about this strategy is Japan doesn’t have to defend anything. I just sit and wait for US to decide where it wants to attack, then i counter and destroy it.
Sean, the US can always block those 5 subs on SZ60 from attacking SZ47 by moving 1 destroyer to SZ48. There’s simply no way for Japan to deal with those destroyer blockers unless Germany brings a fighter/bomber to the Pacific. The US can also skip Borneo and focus on East Indies and then the subs on SZ60 can’t reach the US fleet off East Indies.
Or the US can simply send a single transport with fighter support to take Borneo and then Japan has to react. Lots of ways to skin this cat…
Ok, so then it is:
2BB, 2DD, 4FTR, 1BMR, 1CA, 1AC, 1SS (34) vs 3 ACs, 1 BB, 1DD, 1 SS, 6 FTRs (37)
60% chance of Japanese victory. (average IPC loss for Allies is 114) 75% for Japan with LL dice.
It’s better, it’s at least viable, but at this point it is assuming lucky dice at SZ37 on UK1. So a 60-70% chance of your UK1 strategy working right, plus an eventual 60% showdown. But you should average out to around 1BB and your transports left for US/UK in the pacific, maybe you also save a destroyer. Then IF you do have a DD left you could try to attack the 5 subs on US turn with 46% odds of winning.
2 subs, UK and US - UK1 buy is still 1 carrier, 1 fighter, 1 sub.
Even if Japan wins the US should be able to build an IC on US3 because it can bring 2 inf, and the UK can also lift 2 inf from Australia. And on US3 the first ships built on US1 also start arriving at Borneo….even if Japan attacks the Allied fleet off Borneo on J3 and wins, any survivors will face the risk of an US counterattack.
At least when they were 2 defense they cost 8 IPC. I think that is much more balanced. Then you can’t outproduce subs over equally powerful destroyers, or cruisers. While cruisers cost 12IPC, they have the same ATK/DEF per IPC as destroyers. 4IPC per point of ATK/DEF. So then you can grab 1 destroyer, and some cruisers and still bombard stuff while simultaneously defending against subs.
UK cannot keep India and Africa, and Africa is worth more.
I’ve already mentioned this: subs here are maximized for attack but they have serious drawbacks, specially you can’t rely on them to defend a fleet against air attacks. And Japan needs to have transports so doesn’t matter if you have 10, 15 or 20, they can be rendered useless to defend surface ships and transports against air attacks.
Like Mallery29 said, the ‘new’ sub stats have been introduced 4 years ago on Anniversary and so far no one has ever complained about them or you see people using massive fleets of subs on AA50, AA41.1 or Global… they can’t go on land and they can’t defend against planes.
Hmmm. How about this? On UK2 the UK pulls back instead to SZ38 (SW Australia) and leaves the cruiser to block the Japanese fleet on SZ36 from reaching it. On U2 the US can then take Borneo, move a destroyer to SZ48 to block the 5 J subs and the UK can join the US fleet off Borneo. So you have:
- 2 BB, 1 AC, 2 DD, 1 CA, 1 SS, 5 FTRs, 1 BMR vs 3 ACs, 1 BB, 1 DD, 2 SS, 6 FTRs…. or 50%-50%
I followed everything you said until here.
How are you sending 1 cruiser to block the Japanese fleet on SZ36 on UK2? The Japanese fleet is on SZ36, so you attack it with 1 cruiser and it blows up. I think you mean SZ37.
The cruises moves to SZ37 to block the Japanese fleet on SZ36 to attack SZ38
Id’s probablyy go to India and bombard/transport units and take it on J2, and buy 5 subs on J2. US2 takes Borneo, UK3 merges its Indian fleet with your US fleet. I attack with everything you just said, +5 subs.
98% chance of Japanese Victory with an average IPC loss of 58 (so I’d lose 6SS, 2DD, 1CA) and be left with a fleet of 2BB, 1AC, 2FTR. Slightly better than the other way, but only 3SS better.
U22 - US moves destroyer to SZ48 (Philippines) on US2 and blocks your 5 subs on SZ69 from attacking the Allied fleet on SZ47.
India builds 3 ground units, plus the US fighter, plus 3 UK fighters (the 2 from West Russia - since no carrier is built on UK2)… with the starting units included I don’t Japan can break that with 4 ground units plus planes. And if it does Russia only needs to have a couple of tanks on the Caucasus to liberate India and allow UK to restart production on the next turn, before Japan can hit it again.
This whole Naval buy for India was already contested in another thread (better though with the Russian FTR though, but way too risky)….it’s a gamble that I don’t think India can afford…sure, if the dice go UK way, its over…it goes the other way, it’s over the other way. It’s a nice idea, but so was the Hindenburg…
Bunnies P Wrath once tried this strat against me on 1st Edition and it failed but here you get the shot at the SZ37 fleet. And I’m going to try an India naval… I’m starting to like the idea of having Japan dealing with 2 Allied fleets on the Pacific for a change.
Assuming you can kill the Japanese fleet at EI? You only have a 65% chance of that (including ties). I really wouldn’t PLAN a game winning strategy around a 65% UK1 chance.
No US cannot take any of the islands if i build subs. Not possible, sorry, not in time to stop Germany from taking Moscow and winning the game anyhow.
Maybe you hold India with ground forces, but likely only if you sacrifice Africa to Germany. Which means UK will end up with less than 20IPC per turn very soon, and Russia under 20IPC, vs Germany with over 50IPC. You will lose eventually. The only way you can win is if US gets to the mainland, and it can’t do that through the pacific.
I completely agree with the part of strategies being based on 66% odds but you can rest assured that even if you never use it, you’ll see a lot of people trying. To me, it sounds like something I may try once in a while.
And… yeah all of this discussion on the board has been centered on Pacific and kicking Japan but… none is being said about stopping Germany…
Well the BB you were using for calculations in you UK defense were bought on UK2, for a J2 attack. �But if you want to re-run the numbers with a third carrier instead we can. �But i have a feeling the outcome will be the same. �Why would i attack SZ37 on J1 and risk losing half my fleet when i can attack on J2 and be certain of victory with much lower losses?
Surviving 1AC, and 2FTR + UK1 buy of 1AC, 1FTR (save 7IPC for UK2, gives you 38IPC) + UK2 buy of 1AC, 2FTR, + 1FTR from Russia would give you:
2BB, 2DD, 4FTR, 1BMR, 1CA, 1AC, 1SS (34) vs 3AC, 6FTR (30)
99% chance of Japanese victory.
Let’s recap the moves
R1
On average, the Japanese fleet would be left with 2BB, 1AC, 2FTR. �Then lets say on US1 you take Solomon Island, and on J2 i buy 5 subs and put them in SZ60. �Then if the US fleet goes to Borneo, or Philippenes, i can attack that fleet with:
2BB, 1AC, 4FTR (2 from FI), and 5SS (31) VS 1BB, 1AC, 2FTR, 1SS, 2DD (19)
99% chance of victory with an average loss of 3SS.
And if the US wants to delay and build more ships, then you build more subs. �The longer the US tries to take the pacific, the longer Germany has to take Moscow. �Axis Wins. �
Really the only GOOD option for UK is to do as you say and pull back to the med.� Use those ships to attack Germany and help keep Africa and support Russia’s Caucuses.
Hmmm. How about this? On UK2 the UK pulls back instead to SZ38 (SW Australia) and leaves the cruiser to block the Japanese fleet on SZ36 from reaching it. On U2 the US can then take Borneo, move a destroyer to SZ48 to block the 5 J subs and the UK can join the US fleet off Borneo. So you have:
Only 1 Japanese DD can reach SZ35.
The 1 DD starts in SZ61, and the 2nd starts in SZ60. They can both move to SZ36 on J1, and to SZ35 on J2.
OK, assuming Germany attacks the DD on SZ17 with the bomber (and loses it, since it’s 43% odds for that to happen - check your calcs),
58% chance for German BMR to win, 28% of tie, 14% chance to lose against the DD. Just double checked.
then UK attacks SZ37 for 1 round of combat and pulls everything back to India. On average that gets 1 hit to the Japanese battleship and another hit for the carrier, which removes 2 fighters from the Japanese attack on SZ35 on J1. If Japan chooses to take down a fighter instead, then continue the attack, if you have average losses (1 sub and 1 cruiser hit on defending fire) but ALWAYS retreat when the carrier dies, if possible.
If the Japanese carrier on SZ37 is sunk then the SZ35 battle becomes:1 BB, 1 DD, 4 FTRs, 1 BMR vs 2 ACs, 1 CA, 1 SS, 4 FTRs…. or 57% for defenders
Of course, this is a HUGE gamble but if it pays off… Japan is out of the Pacific really soon, since that UK fleet will also have 2 transports in range of East Indies/Borneo.
Well if it was me, i would choose a FTR to lose first. So First round i tip BB and lose a FTR and you lose 1 Sub, and 1 Cruisers? Then you continue with 1AC, 2FTR, 1CA? So you get on average 1-2 more hit, and i get 1-2 more hits (10vs10). So lets say you get lucky and only take 1 hit and lose a FTR AND get 2 hits? That’s a lot of lucky rolls.
14 defending points / 6 = 2.333, or 2 hits unless you want also to give the UK 3 hits since they have 15 attacking points /6 = 2.5 hits.
That makes you have:
2BB, 2DD, 4FTR, 1BMR, 1CA, 1AC, 1SS (34)vs 2AC, 4FTR, 1BB, 1DD, 1SS (27)97% chance of Japanese victory.
I don’t know why you keep leaving out 1 of the Japanese BB’s, 1 DD, 1CA, and 1SS. SO yea sure, if i decide to NOT attack you with everything you MIGHT win? How does that work?
I’m calculating for a possible J1 attack on SZ35, not J2. On UK2 would then really depend on what’s going on the board, at least 1 UK fighter could be moved to West Russia and then move to SZ35 on UK2, so UK could buy on UK2 a carrier, fighter, destroyer and add those 4, possibly 5 (the 2nd fighter from the UK) units to its SZ35 fleet.
Then you’d have 3 carriers and 6 fighters plus a few other units… that would be too much for Japan to break I think, if it has been already weakened on SZ37 and it’s one very risky battle, because afterwards there will be almost nothing left against the starting American fleet and Japan is lalmost forced to fight it. The overall odds depend on the number of surviving J fighters on SZ37 and the UK fighters reaching SZ35.
Another possibility would be just to pull back the UK fleet to Africa on UK2 if Japan massed its fleet to attack SZ35 on J2. With both the UK/US fleets active Japan will lose the Pacific and the money islands quickly.
…Or, if this seems to unlikely to you, imagine a “Battle for Paris” A&A game where the French and British need to hold out against a German assault for a set number of turns (which exceeds their historical performance) to win. That might also be playable, and would require a more representative set of French sculpts as a sale point.
The Battle of France would make a great A&A game. Because of the facts of history and how they translate to A&A games, you might be able to have a game that was more accurate AND more balanced than any previous A&A game. This would probably translate into more fun for more players.
With a May 10, 1940 starting date, the forces could be historically accurate and very well balanced. Both sides had between 3.3-3.4 million troops. The Allies had advantages in artillery, 2:1, and armored units, 3:2, but the Germans had the advantage in aircraft, 2:1.
I envision the map showng all of France, Belgium, Netherlands, and Switzerland; western Germany, including Frankfurt; northwestern Italy; the northwestern Mediterranean; the English Channel; and Southern England, including London. The Germans win if they take Paris or London. The Allies win if they take Frankfurt or if they hold Paris and London for some length of time.
Might be nice to make a Battle of the Bulge type game and assign several possible objectives to both Allies (capture Frankfurt, secure the Channel ports, etc.) and the Axis (conquer Paris, reduce the Maginot Line, race to the Channel to encircle the BEF and the French on Belgium, secure Holland and Belgium, etc.)
- Fly the Soviet fighters to both Egypt and to the UK carrier. Buy 1 carrier, 1 fighter and 1 submarine with the UK (30 IPC). Place it all on the UK fleet on SZ35. You’ll have 1 SS, 1 DD, 1 CA, 2 ACs and 4 FTRs.
Japan can attack with 1 BB, 1 AC, 1 DD, 6 FTRs and 1 BMR, 86% odds but that means spending most of its airforce and losing a carrier.
Well the sub only defends on a 1, and the japanese have 2 DD’s. But lets take this assumption. You couldn’t get the Australian Fleet there, and G1 should take out your SZ17 DD with the bomber from Germany. (70% odds of winning, 20% odds of them killing each other, so 90% chance of taking it out). Now you can also buy more naval units in UK2 before japan can attack SZ35, so perhaps a BB and a DD?
So you have 4 FTR’s, 2 AC’s, 1BB, 1CA, 1DD, 1SS for a defense of 30 VS an attacking fleet of 6 FTRS, 1 bomber, 2BB, 2AC, 1CA, 2DD, 1SS for an attack of 41. (99% chance of Japanese victory, 100% with LL dice)
Pretty sure your not going to keep the Indian Fleet. Anyway you look at it, any money spent on UK1-2 in SZ35 is going to end up on the bottom of the Ocean. The only way the starting SZ35 UK fleet lives is if it goes to the med.
Only 1 Japanese DD can reach SZ35.
OK, assuming Germany attacks the DD on SZ17 with the bomber (and loses it, since it’s 43% odds for that to happen - check your calcs), then UK attacks SZ37 for 1 round of combat and pulls everything back to India. On average that gets 1 hit to the Japanese battleship and another hit for the carrier, which removes 2 fighters from the Japanese attack on SZ35 on J1. If Japan chooses to take down a fighter instead, then continue the attack, if you have average losses (1 sub and 1 cruiser hit on defending fire) but ALWAYS retreat when the carrier dies, if possible.
If the Japanese carrier on SZ37 is sunk then the SZ35 battle becomes:
1 BB, 1 DD, 4 FTRs, 1 BMR vs 2 ACs, 1 CA, 1 SS, 4 FTRs…. or 57% for defenders
Of course, this is a HUGE gamble but if it pays off… Japan is out of the Pacific really soon, since that UK fleet will also have 2 transports in range of East Indies/Borneo.