Posts made by HBG GW Enthusiast

@ghetty Here’s a couple videos I made about MAP:
MAP is covered at 10:55:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFhtShzVL2A

MAP Interdiction of Submarines at 2:52:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-DaBgO_XUk

Before France falls, if you put a British plane on MAP with some naval units, you can force any enemy sub entering that sea zone to attack you. That means the sub (as the attacker) will have to decide if s/he wants to roll once or submerge. Then all the British naval units get their defense rolls. Most German players won’t enter a MAP-patrolled sea zone that contains a small attack force like a heavy cruiser, a light cruiser, and a couple destroyers because they are likely going to get that u-boat sunk. With proper placement (say SZ’s 3 and 24), you can prevent u-boats from getting out after your convoy lines. If you don’t have a plane on MAP, the submarine just waltzes through any sea zone that just contains naval units.

After France falls, you have to worry about the Germans hitting you with their air force, so you may not want to continue your “cordon” strategy, and the “First Happy Time” begins for the u-boats. At this point, you might assign some escort ships in sea zones that are out of reach of German aircraft, but you are likely going to take some convoy raiding until Britain develops Advanced ASW. While awaiting that tech advance, MAP can then be used in a retaliatory manner as you note above (with MAP +/- Destroyer).

As others have noted, if your aircraft started the turn on MAP, it cannot move to another sea zone for a different MAP mission. It would return home during the non-combat movement phase.

@insanehoshi said in Alternative to AA gun fire being modified:

@jbuckbuddy said in Alternative to AA gun fire being modified:

so if AA guns were attacking wouldn’t they be affected?

Because when shooting planes, the AA gun doesn’t explicitly shoot at its attack/defence value.

The rule for an AA Gun is “An attacking or defending AA Artillery rolls one die for each opposing aircraft up to a maximum of three rolls and hits on a roll of “3” or less.” Note that here it doesn’t say “Gets three attacks” or " rolls at its attack value"; Its AA shots are explicitly at 3.

This means that its attack and defence value is completely incidental from its special AA ability.

Whether this is the correct interpretation of the designers intentions is up in the air, but RAW AA guns’ aa shots are not affected by terrain. However their attack and defence values would still be affected, so if there were no aircraft and they were going into mountains, they would get one shot @ 2.

Persuasive argument, Insane Hoshi! I agree this would mean AA Artillery is not affected by terrain, cities, fortifications, etc. However, you go on to say that AA Art’s attack and defense values “would still be affected.” If you read further in the description you quote, it says, “AA Artillery fire on the first round of combat only.”

My understanding is that AA Art fires specifically at aircraft.
They only fire on the first round of combat.
They get one die roll for each opposing aircraft up to a max of 3.
They hit on a “3” or less and aren’t affected by modifiers.
They do not get to roll against other units.

Your time is valuable. Invest 90 seconds now, to save yourself tons of time later!

Watch this video from 6:00 to 7:30 to see how to set up your dice in Global War 36: https://youtu.be/rdwq2zReD_E

@trig I agree the rules as currently written do not allow you to use newly purchased carriers as potential landing sites for planes returning from non-combat. I note that most places where an aircraft carrier will be built are adjacent to airbases, so if you are not using optional rule 15.3, you can still offer them air cover. I’m not particularly bothered that you cannot build carriers with automatic planes on board if you don’t use that optional rule. I am content with the rules as currently written.

With that said, you and I are absolutely on the same page. If you had the ability to clarify the rules on this issue, would there be anything you would change?

@noneshallpass Ha! You are the best! This conversation hopefully will help others! I agree that many of these examples aren’t going to come up because the submarine player will seek juicier prey elsewhere.

@trig @trig said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

Say 4 German subs moved into the English channel.
There are 3 destroyers, 1 heavy cruiser, and a light carrier with a fighter there.
The UK player chooses to stop the subs and engage in combat.
All forces are placed on the battleboard.
The German subs each chose to fight or submerge. 2 chose each.
The 2 subs fighting roll and get one hit. this is not first strike, and the UK elects to lose a destroyer.
The UK player then shots back with all his ships’ defense values and gets 3 hits.
The German player loses 3 subs- the 2 that fought, and one that was submerging.
The lone surviving sub submerges and the battle is over.

I agree entirely with your description!
So, back on page 2, I posed a similar analogy, just with a MAP and a DD as the defending fleet with four submarines moving into the sea zone.

Noneshallpass wrote, “I believe that the 1 MAP + 1 DD would get a shot at each sub in that zone.”

I was surprised and asked for confirmation that this was true, because it would be very powerful.

You responded, “I would believe so.”

I thought and thought about it, and it didn’t make sense. So, I wrote, “The idea that the MAP aircraft + all defending naval units get to fire at each submarine entering is really bothering me and feels wrong.”

In order to make it clear that I meant it doesn’t make sense that the MAP + defending naval units get to fire a round at each sub in the zone, I gave an analogy of the 100 subs entering one by one. Instead of MAP + defending naval units getting one shot at each sub, I thought it should work as you describe, above.

When all is said and done, you and I totally agree on how it is resolved when submarines combat move into sea zones with MAP. I feel ready now to make another video. Thanks and so sorry for the confusion!

@trig Thank you very much for your patience, Trig! Here’s the question I originally posed:

Now what happens if four submarines enter the sea zone with an aircraft on MAP? Does the aircraft get one shot at each submarine? Could someone argue that only one submarine can be engaged and the others may continue movement? My understanding is the MAP stops all four submarines if the aircraft chooses engagement, but the aircraft only gets one roll to try and hit one of the submarines.

I get the whole attacker/defender thing. Since the four submarines are entering the sea zone with MAP, the MAP has the opportunity to force them to fight a combat. You wrote, “This means that you would resolve that battle like normal.” Yeah, that’s my position. Normal wouldn’t be one attack against each sub. Normal would be the aircraft only gets one roll (i.e. a sea plane rolls at “1” on a D12) to try and hit one of the submarines, right?

The idea that the MAP aircraft + all defending naval units get to fire at each submarine entering is really bothering me and feels wrong.

Like I said above, if four submarines enter a sea zone with a single plane flying MAP, I feel the MAP aircraft should be able to stop them from further movement, but then get just one roll total to kill potentially one submarine, then the rest withdraw/submerge.

Noneshallpass and Trig argue that if four submarines enter the sea zone, the MAP aircraft gets four rolls, one for each. The way to conceptualize their position is each submarine enters the sea zone, one by one, and the MAP aircraft gets a chance to spot/destroy each one.

But then we add in friendly naval units for the MAP aircraft. If there are 5 BB’s, 5 CA’s, 5 DD’s, and 1 CVE with a fighter being attacked by 100 submarines, with Noneshallpass and Trig’s method, the BB/CC/DD/CVE force defeats the subs piecemeal, one by one. I must not be understanding.

My conceptualization is the MAP stops as many naval units as it wants, then we proceed to one giant naval battle. So if 4 subs enter, the MAP can stop them all, but then gets 1 roll.

@trig You are absolutely correct and we agree. I had a reading comprehension failure with what you first wrote. We are on the same page. Should have known if I was thinking you were wrong, I should have paused a beat and reread. 8 )

@trig

@trig said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@hbg-gw-enthusiast
Remember, no matter who initiated combat, if it is your turn, you are the attacker. Thus, if a sub moved into a zone with MAP that chose to engage, then the sub would be “attacking” and suffer the consequences of that.

I’m not sure that’s correct. On Page 35 of the rules, there is an example in the lower right bottom of the page. “…Since it’s the German player’s turn, they will use their defense values against the sub…”

@trig said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@hbg-gw-enthusiast I would believe so. You are forcing to subs to attack you. Thus I think since you are the defender, everyone gets to fight.

Thanks for the confirmation! Didn’t want to misinform others!

@noneshallpass said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

I believe that the 1 MAP + 1 DD would get a shot at each sub in that zone.

Do others agree? If so, very powerful! 8 )

@noneshallpass It’s not that I “need” friendly units. I “want” them! I understand that the MAP alone can force the submarine into a fight. And I get that a MAP + DD can engage a submarine in combat on the MAP player’s turn. But what I wanted to ensure (before making another video and causing confusion), is that on the submarine player’s turn, the MAP player can force the submarine to fight all the naval forces in a sea zone if that submarine moves in.

On the MAP player’s turn, they cannot do this. They can’t move say 10 surface ships and a MAP into a sea zone and force a sub pack to fight them. They can only go after subs with MAP + DD pairs (at best).

But on the sub player’s turn, if a sub moves into a sea zone with 10 BB’s, 20 CL’s and one MAP, then the MAP can stop them and force them to fight the armada. That’s my understanding.

@mark-the-shark Appreciated your ideas for a follow up video, Mark! Good luck in Operation Frostbite!

@noneshallpass Always appreciate your input and insights, Noneshallpass! I do have the CAP markers, so I’ll use those.

If an aircraft is on MAP and a submarine enters the sea zone, the aircraft decides if it wants to engage the submarine. If it declines, the submarine may continue moving. If the aircraft engages, it gets one shot at the submarine before it submerges, ending its movement.

Now what happens if four submarines enter the sea zone with an aircraft on MAP? Does the aircraft get one shot at each submarine? Could someone argue that only one submarine can be engaged and the others may continue movement? My understanding is the MAP stops all four submarines if the aircraft chooses engagement, but the aircraft only gets one roll to try and hit one of the submarines.

Page 36, 8.9 Submarines, “A destroyer may pair 1:1 with aircraft on MAP to participate in an attack on a submarine.”

If an aircraft on MAP with a paired destroyer attack 3 submarines, it is my understanding we resolve the attack against just one of the submarines and the other 2 are not involved.

Let’s say four submarines enter a sea zone with a CVE, a fighter, and 2 destroyers. The fighter may act as if it is on MAP and chooses to do so. The MAP may then choose to engage in combat. It chooses to do so. Now we are going to have naval combat with four submarines vs the CVE, a fighter, and 2 destroyers. Do I have this correct?

To summarize:

1. Sole aircraft on MAP with no friendly naval units vs multiple submarines - 1 roll, but can stop them all?
2. 1 MAP + 1 DD vs multiple submarines, only 1 submarine participates in the combat. Correct?
3. MAP + friendly naval units can force moving enemy submarines into naval combat on the enemy turn, correct?

Page 35, Maritime Air Patrol, Starting a Patrol: “Move aircraft into position within range and place a Maritime Air Patrol marker underneath.”

Does anyone do this? First, is there even a MAP marker we can purchase? Second, do we really need to do this? If there is a plane flying in a sea zone, it’s on MAP, right? Third, how does it work if someone wants to fly MAP in a sea zone where you are also going to have naval combat. Say you are moving 2 BB’s, 2 CA’s and 2 CL’s into a sea zone containing an enemy BB, CA, and CL. You also fly a sea plane into that sea zone on MAP and decline to participate in the naval combat. So you fight out the naval battle without the sea plane, correct?

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/36686/convoy-raiding-convoy-escorting-and-maritime-air-patrol-map-in-global-war-1936-1945

https://youtu.be/yFhtShzVL2A

A discussion of convoy raiding modifiers, convoy defense modifiers, Maritime Air Patrol (MAP), and four ways to kill a submarine.
0:53 - Surface Ship Raiding
3:05 - Basic Submarine Convoy Raiding
4:09 - Assigning Ships to Escort Duty
7:15 - Advanced ASW
8:19 - Advanced Submarines
9:27 - Radar
10:55 - Maritime Air Patrol
14:13 - Long-Range Aircraft
15:21 - Four Ways to Kill a Submarine

Destroyers negate the first strike ability of submarines.

Question #1: On the battle board, submarines have a target selection of 1. Do they have target selection?

Question #2: If they do have target selection, do destroyers negate the target selection?

My understanding is 1, yes and 2, no.