Posts made by FinsterniS

Speaking as a Kid, I’m telling you, 20 years from now a third of the country wont be theist.

Well… there’s is still lots of Atheist; IF you consider those religious atheist in buddhism, but Atheist and Without religion; rare, very rare, and they don’t gain ground very fast… For lots of time, we’ve got all the element to see that god is a chimera. Still, religion is very strong, and “angry atheist” are rare these day…

Anthropomorphism and anthropocentrism will plague humanity for still lots of time… maybe, in 100 years, religion will have lose some point… Sure it is loosing ground, but this is abnormally slow… well not so abnormally if you consider the cultural and biological aspect of belief.

You should read “Religion Explained” by Pascal Boyer…

although i believe you and i share a similar disdain for the Monarchy, there are a few “civilized” modern countries with a progressive social conscience and a humming economy (Sweden, GB, and even Canada has not relinquished entirely its links to that “archaic” institution. Could there not be something to this? A balance to the democracy the governs these countries? Naturally America, home of the elected monarchs would soundingly cry “absolutely not”, however i would not be so fast to rule this out yet.

Ok, i think i was’nt very clear. I think Monarchy is archaic and useless in most country, it does’nt project a very modern image. This does not mean, because a country is still working with a monarchy, that the country is archaic, just that part of the institution. Look at Sweden and GB, the monarchy is without real power… So why keeping it ?

about fear and politic…

Woman are more insecure, more prudent, and they vote more for rightish party, not because they are idiots, obviously. When there’s social problem, people want a “solid” party with simplist solution, they elect the right. Right-wing party are focusing on security, big army, hard punishment, just read their speech, fear is their allies. Look these time, fear is in the air, anyway more than in the normal, and conservative idea are taking lots of space. When germany was in pain after WWI, they choose to listen to rightish party, they (we) were afraid.

about Stoiber and Shroeder…

Stoiber is the “head” of a coalition of 2 conservative party. He want to bring conservative idea of bavaria on all germany. Also he does not seem to care a lot about europe, i find that is dangerous for germany, as he could slow down europe progress. He is also very hard to the Turk, once he tried to deport a german delinquant in turk, the delinquant was a turk, born in germany, as his parent were there for more than 30 years. About economy, it seem evident that his idea would not help a lots East Germany, he propose simple solution to a very complex problem in germany; unemployement. He is not very popular in the north.

Shroeder is a social democrat, a competent man with good idea. He care about europe. But he make a mistake; he said he would reduce unemployement, he did, but not as much as he promise. Now it seem the idea of his party about unemployement are starting to work, but maybe too late as the election is on septembre 22.

In the last few years The Netherlands, Italy, Denmark, France and Portugal have each elected conservative leaders.
Today, Sweden, a country with 11% of its 9,000,000 population born outside the country, is looking at a tight election. The Social Democrats have ruled for all but about a decade of the last 70 years. However, the Liberals have put forth a new plan. The proposal requires immigrants applying for citizenship to pass a Swedish language test. Mr. Leijonborg, spokesman for the Liberals, says the plan is not anti-immigrant, but will integrate foreigners into Swedish life more effectively.

wow…wow… First, there’s is ALWAYS a balance, sometime right-wing party are very strong, sometime left-wing party are stronger… and when there is fear, right-wing party get elected. Second; it’s a question of standpoint, Chirac is rightish in france, but if you compare him with the Democrat and the Republican, you will find he is way more leftish than these 2 party…

Sure, fron a European point of vue, we are in a very sad rightish period… even Blair is acting like he was conservative. I only wish Germans will not elect Stoiber, i don’t want germany to be a big bavaria… But maybe Stoiber will get crushed by the “Preiss” after all.

Sweden has the highest taxes of any country in Europe. - Xi

Yeaaa… and sweden is one of the most, and maybe the most, modern country. Low violence, lots of woman in politic, good education/medical system, they do a lot to reduce pollution, they are good in technology and their university are prestigious, their leftish economy is working very well, very good for a little country.

Only their obsolete monarchy make the country sound like an archaic state.

Just some skirmishes…

but to an atheist, would eternal punishment not be an eternity with a God that you spent your entire life slamming?

I slam on him because he does not exist, because his follower are fanatic who cannot resist a litle rigor and logic, and when they speak of god they spread anti-scientific data and goes against logic. But if i slam on “him”, it is because HE DOES NOT exist, if god would exist, i would believe in him, if he was my creator, i would love him. So if he was real, and he is not, then i would’nt care spending eternity with him.

This, to me, is the ultimate choice. We live our lives on earth as we will. We choose how to live, who to worship (or not), and ultimately we enjoy (or suffer) the consequences of our actions.

You clearly does not understand something… it’s not like God was my father, and i choose to reject everything he teach me, it’s just that i think, more; i am persuaded more than lots of thing, that this is an illusion.

Of course using your analogy, any earthly authority might be seen as a tyrant - if i follow my bosses orders, i may keep my job, if i do not, i lose my job.

We will go with logic, i give an analogy, you make an argument ad absurdo (nothing wrong to that)… then i have to say the difference between your “deviant” analony and mine…

The difference are clear. Hitler was killing people because they did not think like him, God is sending into everlasting punishment those who do not think he exist or those who believe in other thing (i really believe a follower of Cernunnos would go to hell). You will lose your job if you don’t do your job ok or if you are not qualified, he will not; A; kill you, B; You will not be fired because you think something does not exist or because you are leftish…

Then why blame God for our decision to be or not to be with him? This is rather childish, but an attitude one might expect from a people continually looking to absolve themselves of any personal responsibility, as is the “epidemic” of our world.

I never blame God, how could i ?

I did not do anything wrong, i just believe in something your mythology does not accept, so i will get punishment… For obvious reason i don’t care, i just find that God is a monster… making a national genocide then menacing those who believe otherwise of hell.

**“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal”

• Matthew 25:46**

France is their country. If there are communist, union members, and human rights advocates that need residency, then I say, hey, more power to them.

no no, you don’t understand, Communist & Human Rights advocates are marching for illegal immigrant so they can have residency, they don’t need residency for themself.

I think someone who sees God as a Fascist Dictator in those same 3 religions is blinded by hate.

Fascist is maybe a little exagerated… but you must admit the concept of “those who don,t believe in me will have eternal punishment” is 10 time more horrible than what Hitler and Stalin have done.

Also God promised he would not flood the world again.

He is good, he will not make a second worldwide genocide :)

Seriously, you say that like he did flooded the world once :)

@Deviant:Scripter:

@F_alk:

@Deviant:Scripter:

First, from what I believe, the moon isn’t composed of the same material that the Earth is. There’s no rule that “all planets must have earthquakes.” This doesn’t really have anything to do with God either being evil or not, since you could make this accusation towards anything bad that happens in the world.

Wether the moon is the same material or not is not a question of believe… we have been there!
For the earthquakes: we have sent probes to a few planets: some seem to have had planetquakes.

That’s exactly my point F_alk, but Zero reasoned that since some planets don’t have earthquakes, our planet must be an act of God. What kind of reasoning is that?

No… he said that, as we have Earthquake, god is either Evil or he is not omnipotent…

That’s all the big paradox, i can even say dualism, of Omnipotence and “All-loving”…

• There is pain, hate, suffering, injustice et cetera…
• If god cannot stop that, he is not omnipotent
• If god do not want to stop that, he is not all loving…

Still, you can argue what “omnipotence” and “all-loving” is… so in the end this kind of argumentation does not go very far. Not as far as Logical, Physical and Neurological argument. The “easiest” way is to refute all theist argument, then to show that if religion only stand on faith, all religion are equal, and to finish to show that some religion are in contradiction, to prove faith is not reliable.

Some are also using new discoveries to show how “epidemic” religion is, as reseach like those of Pascal Boyer, Andrew Newberg and Eugene Aquili are showing…

@EmuGod:

I was just joking FinsterniS, don’t take it personally.

I know :D

I think the time has come for the final battle between theism and atheism. Lets hope it will be a good one…

The GASF will win ! (German Atheist Scientific Force)

@cystic:

I don’t know TG. Do you think that’s necessary?

Well… maybe not… but anyway i’ll enter in it if it was to happen :)

But i am not sure this is the right place…

If there was to be further debate, it would need to be both organized and orderly, with a specific question blah blah blah.

THAT would be great… i don’t know how much time i and falk were repeating the same thing… Not that i want to win an argument ad nauseum but we never get any counter argument… YB (or anyone else) say something, we give a counter argument, silence… then the same basic argument came up again !

My problem with actually entering a debate is my lack of facility with the process etc. I’ve had no philosophy training (aside from medical ethics), no religious study (aside from reading the bible and a bit of history on my own time - and even that’s remarkably poor), and i have no experience with debating at all.

Well i have no training in philosophy, i just get a lot of reading about the subject when my faith was getting weak.

About feeling; everyone feel they are right, you just need argument, rational or empirical, to make a solid thesis, otherwise everything would be only subjective.

@Deviant:Scripter:

You can’t prove that God doesn’t exist…any more than I can prove that he does. So don’t be so sure of yourself.

ta ta ta…

You can’t prove the tooth fairy does not exist
You can’t prove Odin does not exist
You can’t prove Kami does not exist
You can’t prove Trolls does not exist

But, i image you do not believe in the tooth fairy, you do not believe in odin and you do not believe in Kami… Why ? Because you have not a single reason to believe they exist… and i can assure you that if they were of any use to calm down people like god is, people would believe in the tooth fairy and in trolls…

There is some rules in science, we do not claim the existance of something if we have no reason to. Note that i never said we cannot believe in something that is not proven, for exemple Telepathy. The problem is that everywhere God is; in the creation of the universe, in the creation of humanity (et cetera), there is a logical, rational explanaition. But often people choose easy answer, even more if the answer is as golden as god, i mean, living an illusion with god give you so much hope, eternal life, eternal joy, no need to think if something is wrong; god say it for you.

So… i cannot be 100% sure god doest not exist, that would not be rational, but i believe that he is as probable as the tooth fairy…

@cystic:

eyeless_9mm,
I’m sensing a lot of anger from you. There are some great relaxation techniques available for people with that kind of anger.
Also i appear to be one of those people with 1/4 brain mass. It’s amazing what willpower and talent will get you these days . . . . :D

@9mm:

Well anyone with a fourth of a brain mass would come to the realization that “faith” is totaly futile. Just because we HOPE for something does not mean our wish will have any affect on something in the end.

I agree with 9mm, you do not need to have a big formation in Philo/Physic/Math to understand why god is an incoherence. But this is not only a problem of intelligence, because i am sure CC have all he need to be atheist, but for some it is clearly impossible, they don’t have the will to make a rigorous look at god. And anyway, so much people believe like them it is far easier to follow. God does not exist, but people prefer to live with a lie, it’s easier than to live alone… We don,t need a lot of thinking to understand why religion is all pink for the believer, they will be saved, eternal joy, eternal life…

Also it is very, very hard to admit that all your life you talk to something that does not even exist.

Violence, Murders, Passionate Murders & Accident with Handgun are very high in the US, so i don’t see how i can “look at the fact”…. Anyway the fact is; i don’t care. American want handgun; there choice, they can capital punishment; good for them. I don’t care.

@cystic:

@TG:

Christianity Killed Rome?

Hmmmm… I always thought it was for internal disputes, the lack of a Roman citizen army, badly managed treasury, influx of immigration, overexpansion, invasions by Germanians, the Goths, the Huns, revolution by the Celtics, the Scotts, and countless other “barbarians” (as the Romans would say) that ultimately led to the demise of Roman.

yes, but it is much easier to blame everything that’s wrong in the world on Christians.

Yes it is !!! No seriously i just said Rome start having problem the same perior christianism came to europe, Christianism was a problem for Rome, but but a problem big enough to destroy their empire, their was other factors…

I just found the reflection “power is on the side of the christians”, particuliary incoherent with history.

@Yanny:

I’m proud to be Agnostic. I view everyone not Agnostic (except maybe Athiests, though they are included in this) to have flawed, stupid, and outrageous views on Religion.

However, I view the “Religions of the book” with a particular bloodthirst. These Religions believe in slavery, except they are the slaves. They believe in Facism, though few even know the definition of the word. They worship a God, and never stop to question his existance. At least other Religions believed their Gods weren’t omnipotent. They had flaws and competition. This God of the book has no flaws. To me, thats the truely stupid part of the Religions.

I look to myself for Religion. I am the most important person in the world to me, as it should be with everyone. Instead, people spend their lives “serving” Jesus or Muhammad, or fearing God’s wrath.

Probably as much as 90% of the Agnostic i knew became Atheist, myself included. It would probably, one day, seem to you like an unjustified compromise; i don’t think there is much people getting from Theist to Atheist without a little step between the two. Still, agnostic are free thinker, they need only their own will to pass throught life.

Of course, it also depent of your definition of Agnosticism & Atheism…. Agnosticism can be applied everywhere, not only in religion, it is an attitude to say “i don’t have enough information to claim something is true or false”. To some extend i am still Agnostic, i cannot say i am 100% sure god does not exist; that would not be logical. I just say he is as probable as the tooth fairy, for me it’s enough to claim god does not exist.

I am the most important person in the world to me, as it should be with everyone.

I disagree, you are nothing without the people around you. Just imagine how the world would be if you were alone; you will have no more purpose in life. Our purpose is the society we live in, we most make everything to keep this society in good shape.

@TG:

“From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see His invisible qualities– His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.” Romans 1:20 NLT

And I will read to you an explanation from Quantum Physics that not everything has to have a creator and certainly not an intelligent one.

TM, you are a study of contradiction… one day i wish you will explain me your vision of Religion and Economy. You, a theist, destroyed the only “logical” argument for god.

But this doesn’t help you at all, because you don’t believe in the correctness of the Bible…

Why should i look at the bible and not book about the tooth fairy ?

and find a good spot in nature somewhere so that it’s peaceful and quiet. Talk to “any general God who may or may not exhist,” and ask Him to prove to you who He is. Wait for an answer, but do not look at events, looking for a “sign.” Gods says that ALL who earnestly seek Him will find Him.

That’s, as always, something only someone infested with religious belief can say… just like the whole “i feel god” thing.

But i now know that i want to feel him when i felt him, i was weak, and all these sign were ridicoulus, when i was a teen, sometime i need to get some sign so my faith could still be over my reason. I ask god for a sign, i always get one. But with more reflexion, now that i am not a theist, i just see how ridiculous (read Pathetic) i was. I was my sign, i was attentive to thing around me and i create my own sign; i ask god many time for sign, and he answer me. An illusion, inside me, answer me.

Seeking out God with all that is in you is a wise move. If there were a God, wouldn’t you want to know it? If He doesn’t show up, then He simply doesn’t exhist.

My search for god is ended, now i am a militant Atheist and a Humanist, i will devote my life to my science, my species, my family. I search for him, he was not there, any mind that really want to know if god exist, with minimal knowledge and logic; will get an answer.

@city:

Here’s a controversial idea…

The superpower of tommorow is wherever the Christian Church is strong today.

Examples: USA, UK, late Rome.

A very irrational conclusion, just like the “thermodynamic is against evoltion thing” (you did not answer that btw). Most of the powerfull civilisation were not the “more christian”, just look how powerfull China was, Rome start having problem WITH christianism, europe was more powerfull BEFORE christianism and long time after it, the Muslim were very powerfull in Dark Age; more than europe.

2. With regards to “rational etc.” well, God provided the Bible, and Jesus provided his followers with the commission to preach the gospel to all people, making the Word understandable and reachable to everyone. The non-scary equivalent to voice in the sky. At the same time, several people on this forum have indicated their disgust/hatred for missionaries who are trying to do that “necessary condition”

Like the bible was rational… all religion can give you myth of equal valor. If God was a little cleaver (if he does exist he his not), well he would have make him visible for all kind of people… Rationalist like me, faithfull follower like you and Empirical people… to give everyone equal chance. But that is not the case, you need faith and some people have different cognitive system, i, for exemple, don’t believe only in what i can see, but in what is rational. Why god would make himself invisible to people that are using a different intellectual approch if he is all powerful ?

3. We humans rely too much on our rational thought processes - Ours, not Gods. It’s child vs. parent type stuff (i’d keep going, but you get my idea, and i have to go biking now!)

That is horrible… You want me to let a little guy not even able to make his existance look plausible take the lead of my life ? Well i have more will, and letting an irrational god take control of my mind would be rather foolish… Why not letting Cernunnos ? What you just said is so inconclusive… we should let god think for us, but we don’t know which god is the good… if you were before a Polytheist he could say exactly the same thing; “we should rely more of cernunnos, not on logic”…

@cystic:

@FinsterniS:

can understand that it comes down to FAITH.

I have a question, i ask it once but i did not get answer… so i’ll ask it again because i am stubborn :)

(pi) You can only believe in god with Faith, not with logic
(pii) Each religion is bases on faith
(piii) Faith is not a guarantor of the veracity of something
(ci) Each religion is as valid as the other

I am sure some will hate the conclusion, but it is true. If i have faith in an “evil” god that hate humanity and create us only to torture us when we will die; there is not a single reason to believe i am more wrong than any christian.

You see, this is our problem. Your question looks extremely rhetorical (can you add an adjective before rhetorical?).
Also your reasoning is flawed in approaching your conclusion. The “validity of religion” has little/nothing to do with whether it is faith-based or not. Rather the validity of religion has everything to do with the original premise (sp?).
(ci) might be more appropriately considered “each religion may appear as valid as the other to a third party non-participant”.
Also your belief in that “evil god” has much to do with your relationship with it, your level of mental acuity, as well as those other things we look to for “validity in a religion”.
Question - going back to the “descartes” theory:
we have 2 people - one Christian, one atheist - both preaching their religion with fervor (one for Jesus, one anti-Jesus). Both die. What have they done?

What i want to point out is that if religion is essentially base on Faith, not Logic, no religion can be considered false or more valid. Exemple; faith is on what christian base their religion, same thing goes for the ancient Celt, their gods are in pure contradiction with the christian god, but how can you claim their gods are mythology if the “tool” they use is the same as you; faith ?

About the Atheist and the Christian, you must first understand that Atheism is not a religion, all Atheism believe different thing; they are free. Exept some religion that are atheist like buddhism (most buddhist). If an atheist is “preaching”, it’s like an Empirist or a Rationalist, it’s not a religion; it’s a philogophy. About what they have done; the christian have spread lies to make him feel good, he give false hope and teach how to use faith instead of intellect… Nothing very constructive for humanity, that’s why you’ll see more and more humanist that are militant Atheist.