I, and F_alk, are from Germany,
We are also representing the Atheistic Leftish European :)
F_alk is from Hamburg, so don’t ask him if that the most beautify town in Germany :)
Weisswurst ? You are not vegetarian ? :)
Dresden… They massacre everything, leaving only the thing that were of some strategic importance; the rail roads… Sure they silently apologies, but their pilots were awarded for the massacre.
@TM:
Well, I am sure that Cantor believed in actual infinite numbers transfinite numbers. However, I have not seen an example of actual infinity thus far, except if you believe space is continuous.
In fact there is a lot of exemple of infinity. You won’t see a lot of Aleph 0, but a lots of Aleph 1 !
For Aleph 0 and Aleph 1, Cantor believed in the Continuum hypothesis or Generalised Continuum hypothesis, which would seem to imply no.
Continuum Hypothesis is true when you look only at it as an axiom to base other sets, but false when you look at math as only abstaction… (it is often the inverse). Anyway i don’t trust infinity, as one of my teacher said; we would need a new logic to understand infinity, often you come up with the conclusion it is False, then you look at another way and it is True… Just like the continuum hypothesis…
Maybe Monsieur FinsterniS is right on Gauss, ‘just keep infinity out of mathamatics!’ :D
Well no, i don’t agree with Gauss this time, i think it was just too frustrating for him… Like it is now for us anyway, if nobody around me were talking about Infinity i would never have think of it; too strange. But Gauss was right that infinity is just a lots of problem.
PS: I find it amusing, yet appalling, to see learned mathematicians fight among each other, especially the terrible war waged between Georg Cantor and Leopold Kronecker.
Don’t forget Cantor’s allies; Hilbert, Dedekind, Godel…
And also don’t forget the “potential infinity” fidels; Poincaré, Weyl, Brouwer
…
LW… i wish it is not for “Left Wing”. If it is; what the hell is a Left-wing Capitalist and a Right-wing Socialist… Left mean intervantion of the state in economy, Right mean no/minimal intervation of the state in economy, how can a Right-wing Socialist exist ? Why not a form of red only compose of Blue. Sure if you have a very large definition of Capitalist you can take Social Democrat for Left-wing Capitalist, at the limit, but right-wing Socialist are called Moderate Socialist, not Right-wing Socialist.
Anyway not in France… and not in Germany.
And FinsterniS - i’ve already told you that i’m arrogant - if not blind - to think that an intelligent being created the earth. Although i’m humbled when i think about the idea of God - so i have trouble putting the “arrogant” thing together with acknowledging a greater being.
Acknowledging a greater thing that make us in his own image, give only to us a soul, give us a greater purpose, claim that we were the master of the animal kingdom… It does not sound arrogant to you ? If only there was something to support it, it could be realistic, but it is clearly a fantasm. A weak tool to give ourself a higher purpose in life
Also i have a question; god “give us a purpose” in life, but what of the animals ?
FinsterniS, I don’t mean to offend you, but the Germans were just as responsible for the deaths of the Jews as Hitler was. they could have stopped him like they stopped him from killing the handicapped, but chose not to. Germany has been paying back for what it did in the Holocaust, which is admirable and very important that it continues to help the Holocuast survivors. I only wish that other countries responsible for helping Hitler and have not admitted to it, such as Austria, would also pay the Jews back for what happened. I’m not anti-German, in fact, I believe that today the Germans are a great people. But there is no denying of the fact that the Germans helped Hitler in his massacres. Hopefully, such a disaster wll never happen again.
First, you don’t offend me. I think it is important to remember our error if we don’t want to repeat them, i am not proud of what Germany was, i am proud of what it is now. Also i want to make clear i don’t want in any way to clean the german people of all our crimes… Still you are making some douptful reasoning, about the Jews, sure we were guilty of passivity and in some case of even more than just plain passivity, but germans were desesperate and most of the people that were not anti-semitic before the war just get the occasion to get a “bouc émissaire”; the jews.
I agree with your answer, but you will have to admit it is a little strange… We are not suppose, in arithmetic, to consider those thing like the order in wich we distribute numbers… x(x - 1) = x^2 - 1x and x + 2x = 3x, whatever the manner you distribute the x + 2x, it would give 3x… Also the “Infinity is not equal to Infinity” thing is a problem that can only be very, very partialy resolve with Cantor theory of different type of infinity… the resolution also make us ask some strage question, like “is there is other infinity between Aleph 0 and Aleph 1 ?” Anyway, i don’t know if infinity really does exist, maybe, like Poincaré, Gauss & Kronecker thinking, infinity does not exist, it is just potential… But it seem it is not the case…
Damn Cantor, Gauss said infinity was just problem ! :)
I don’t mean to stereotype, but 99% of the German people helped hitler mass murder Jews.
We (Germans) were, in a great proportion, guilty of passivity, but you are going a little far…
I see a beautiful and immense universe. I would be blind and arrogant, to think an “intelligence being” create the earth and my own race in his own image… those who think only intelligence can breed/bring order are reductionist.
And please don’t say i have not the “eye” to see god, that is too easy, i had perfectly the “eye” to see god, and i have done a lot of things that make me laugh now, but with logic i reject god.
ah not again. Mose i don’t want to fight against your patriotism, i done that in “america did not loose at vietnam” and it was pointless… I will certainly not take the time to refute every argument you made, you say Hiroshima & Nagasaki were important cible, i think oterwise (how much non-cilivian causalities?), you think it was justify, i don’t and i also don’t think the unconditional surrender was a justify request, a 99% unconditional surrender but with the emperor remaining in power would have been enough for the Japanese. it is not as simple as “americans want to stop the war”, there was a bomb waiting to be launched, a bomb that cost a lot…
Also CC, your never said that every religion was in part true ? The emperor is maybe a god, like Jesus was the son of god ?
Launching nuclear bomb was essentialy a terror attack, it was not to undermine Japan’s productivity nor economy, it was not an attack against military infrastructure, it was an attack against civilians. While i do not doupt any minute that if Hitler had this kind of weapon in hand he would had use it, he is certainly not an exemple to follow.
Also the Japanese were already defeated, the “they would have not surrender”, is a very bad excuse…
The “Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. … The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan.”
Chief of staff to the president, Adm. William D. Leahy
“Japan was already defeated. …It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.”
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Japan would have surrender, only if they knew the Emperor would have stay in power, the Japanese people fear the “unconditional surrender” which threatened the Emperor. For a shintoist, the Emperor is like Jesus for Christian, i am sure to protect Jesus a lots of Christians would have done the same thing.
American lifes are not more or less valuable than Japanese lifes.
Just before WWI, europe was very unstable, germany make an alliance with austria and with italy (the triple-alliance), while another alliance was formed; the france-england-russia alliance. The archduc Ferdinand and his wife Sophia were killed by a Bosniac, then Austria decide it was enough, they want to give a lesson to these serb, so they ask Germany if they could count on them, and Germany answer Yes, Austria could count on Germany if there was a war. Then (to make the story short) Austria declared war against the Serb, the Serb had ask before help from Russia, they accept to help the Serb but ask France, France accept to help Russia in case of a war, then Russia accept to help the Serb. Then the war start between the Serb and Austria, and shorty after that, between Russia-France and Austria-Germany. The war was horrible, ~20 000 000 death, but if we look at it, germany was not the “monsters” in it, sure they use gas bur France and England take people from their colonies to throw them in the frontline…
Anyway, after the War, Germany was humiliated, his economy was shattered. Then right-wing extremist use the fear and desolation of the german people to their advantage, the Germans dissident were killed, and lots of german were anyway not so dissident…
THIS, is a context. In no way an excuses for Nazi’s atrocities.
Same thing goes, on a lesser scale, for the us nuclear attack. You are trying to rationalize horribles crimes, but throwing two nuclear bomb on civilian was a terror attack. Remember that without the “unconditional reddition”, the two bomb would have maybe not been necessary. Sure we own a lot to Russia and the US, it is not a reason to be blind to their crime, i am happy the USA help to get the war to and end, but Nagasaki and Hiroshima were more political/emotional than rational desicion.
also i like how Bush is becoming More Dictatorish everyday it just goes to show u how Democracy is Failing and that it is an Inferior idea
The problem with democracy is that a lot of people are lacking the basic knowloedge to make a good political choice. Democracy is the dictatorship of ignorance some way, it is very emotional. How many people vote for Bush, THE PERSON, without thinking about the idea behind the vote, people want more money in their pocket, to complain after social program lack financement. Also get a bullet in the shoulder of the president, his popularity will rise… Another BIG problem is the fact the governement are often making decision not because it is right, but to be reelected; that is just stupid.
It is an argument for dictatorship… not really, one person is even more instable, more emotional, then not worthy of the power. Hitler made several very stupid thing, because he had emotional, personnal problem, et cetera… One man cannot rule a country.
Germany got bombed something fierce. Poor poor German civilians . . . that’ll learn them to follow a madman into the depths of depravity and EVILHOOD (yes FinsterniS, i said evil).
…serious crime were made by other people, what about England who send people from their colonies to the front at the WW1 ? What about the two bombs launch in Japan ? What about Vietnam ? The Japanese attack in Korea ? It would always be a crime, not “evil”, but a crime against humanity, still you cannot take the fact without the context, that’s what you are doing by stating bombing german civilian “will learn them not to follow madman”. Serious, and dangerous, simplification.
DasEwokSS, you are fachist because you don’t know what it is… “Mein Ehre Heißt Treue”, the motto of the Waffen-SS, is not that horrible… when you don’t know who said that. They kill so much innocent, how can you be blind to that ?
Also complete dictatorship rarely work, because the state is too subject to the emotion of it’s leader. Exept some rare, very very rare, exemple (à la Pisistrate) where it was a good thing.
Germany’s Interior Minister, Otto Schily, says 90% of foreign-based neo-Nazi websites are set up in the United States, where they’re protected by American freedom of speech laws.
In Germany, autorities are really sensible about Nazism, and it’s a good thing !
The thing about capitalism is those that it works for really believe in it (and those that it does not work for of course tend more towards socialism/communism etc.)
Completly disagree, those “leftish intellectual” (they are not rare) are in a great part disadvantage by these left wing mesure. I vote for Jospin even if i knew that i would loose money with him (compared to Chirac).
i said “from America”, from the continent, not the country…
Hey guy, They dropped 2 bombs.
After the first bomb did japan surrender?
No.
How would have a bomb on an empty island made them surrender?
I perfectly know that, but the American want something the Japanese where not ready to accept easily, the Emperor himself was not a danger, with a little more tolerance and maybe a little “show of power” maybe this could have end more easily.
Also they 2 bombs were send to kill civilians, to show how their little toy were powerfull. I am not sure it save life, american life; yes.
Japan got exactly what it desevered.
That is very cruel, there is pre-war issues you seem to forget, Japan did’nt attack just for the fun of killing peoples.
Pearl Harbour was a sucker punch.
It was far less barbarian than the 2 bombs !!! At least not directed after civilians….
Also CC a lots of generals made war crimes; they only go in trials when they loose…
Boosk is right… When the japanese start the restructuration of their country, they take the prussian model of army and make shintoism the prime religion to reinforce patriotism, and in shintoism the emperor is the incarnation of a kami (gods), the bomb were clearly not usefull, a little bomb on an unhabited island and the emperor would have stop the war, and if america were a little more comprehensive in the first place it would never have happened.
Congratulation ! You are the first i know from america who spell Nietzsche the rigth way. By the way, Nietzsche is not the only one who consider stupid the whole concept of “good” and “evil”, the only arguments about the whole concept are;
A; it’s in the Bible… woooooo pretty convincing
and…
B; “Common sence”, in that case a good excuse to be superficial.
Also his view on the judeo-christian ideololy in general was pretty accurate…
But even if he influence me a lot, i don’t consider myself a Nietzschean, i am a “me”, and i don’t think Nietzsche would be really happy to see all these Nietzschean…
Become what you are…
