it’s obvious you think i’m naive, but puh-lease. a person with an IQ greater than a hammer could have seen your implications a mile away. you were caught in a fallacious argument. Deal with it.
That was a question without implication, i am still asking why so many scientist cannot see god. Is it a new way to find excuse not to answer ? You are making paranoiac extrapolation, i never use this kind of fallacies.
Anyway what implication, that all scientist are atheist ? You and I know it is false…
i think canada wins in volince/humanrigts/healthcare/envorominte
i think us wins in unimployment/econemy/
sory for the bad spelling :roll:
Sorry GeZe, but your question is just an expression of immature nationalism, you may prefer to live in Canada, it does not mean it is a better place. I feel better in France/Germany than in Italy, Japan or the USA; but it is just a question of personality, i would prefer to live in Canada (Québec) than in the USA, but this does not mean Canada is better. It is just better for me…
Extreme Nationalism = Problems
From a lot of the discussion and feedback I see, I sometimes get the feeling that no matter what, nothing would be convincing enough.
I am wondering if there is even a possiblity for you to believe.
As a matter of fact, i (and Falk) answer and refute every theist argument, there was no argument we could not argue/refute (from my point of view anyway). I think i was very clear on my answer, i did not only answer “i am right”, i always refute argument and counter-argument. So i don’t think i am making any fanatical move by remaining an atheist.
What would i need to be a theist again ? Well… not a miracles, i only request a logical argumentation, not a deformation of any physic law, but a real argument i could not refute. Argument from design or the Prime Factor argument does not impress me :)
@Mr:
Quote from Wild2000 “Jesus was real. The other characters you mention from mythology never existed. Zeus is not real and neither is the tooth fairy. Mythology is fiction. Christianity is based on a real living person. This is a huge difference.”
Well I think Jesus is a Mythological character.
Nothing you have posted has change that fact.
God is as mythological as Zeus, Odin, Wotan or Belenos ! Only the prophet is not mythological, but we attribute him mythological power, so i don’t see why christianism is less mythological than the Norse, German, Celtil or Greek mythology.
Alright they a couple prophesies which came true. However, after doing the research on these in comparison to Biblical prophesies fulfilled, anyone can notice that the odds of these prophesies being fulfilled are very different. The Bible prophesies are much more specific and put the odds against them. However, they were fulfilled.
There is probably not as much Norse prophecies. And i am curious about all those christian prophecies fullfilled, i know some of them (sadly) but i never find any to be very convincing; even when i was christian. Jesus did not said the end of the world would come before his generation die ?
Sounds like solid research here. This does nothing to help your argument.
I am sorry but the last thing i care with religion is prophecies, these can be interpret from a lot of way so it is useless. I prefer to look at those religious people, look at history and look at the nature to form my idea. Also i don’t know about all religion and i doupt you can say oterwise.
The shroud of turin; everything seem to point an hoax (microbiology & C14 dating), still lot of people believe it to be true… Same thing goes with prophecies, people believe what they want to believe, and they see what they want to see. It seem to be very hard to be objective.
People want to believe in mythology; well they will believe in mythology even if it is against science.
I agree. I have weighed the evidence each religion claims to have or has shown (as in Christianity). After my review of the evidence, the choice was easy.
Well me too. Christianism offer a lot, but i don’t want to live in a lie.
And about the those who do not want to find god, this can hardly apply to me as i was trying to understand him with science before beign atheist. This is a very easy escuse…
Einstein was overrated, he was a big exemple of conformism. He never accept the random part of quamtum physic and it take some time before he accept the idea of a dynamic universe.
Why do you highlight France ?
And why do you quote Einstein while you don’t even know what “god” mean to him… it’s out of context.
wow that’s terrible. I seem to remember you jumping on someone for referencing the 85% of the world who are theist (i.e. YB and myself). Also i know a great many scientists who are not only theists, but Christians to boot. But of course this is meaningless unless the numbers are used to prove your point?
tsssss, i NEVER said that was an argument for Atheism !!! I am just asking a question !!! I never even said Scientists were more atheist, i am just asking a question, i never use such fallacious argument to caution atheism. YB said the fact 85% of the poppulation is theist constitute an argument about the concept of god (and you support the fallacies), i just ask a question i never use that as an argument for atheism ! How can i be fallacious if i am not even making an argument ? It does not even implie anything, i have not said “why xx% of scientist and blablabla” !!!
Also Christianity/religion is not about logic. We’ve been over this. It’s about faith. “with faith the size of a mustard seed you could move mountains”. Can you believe in something you cannot see? (besides the wind) You can not see, or prove (beyond a doubt) God, but you can see the effects that God has on the lives of his people and of the planet (unless you choose to ignore them/paint them with other attributes).
I believe in lots of thing i cannot see. The effect of god are just effect of nature, you know what i think about this… Sure your god influence our planet, this is not an argument for it, other god had influence on the humanity; they are still just part of some mythology.
Also i repeat it; as long as religion is not in science & politic; the problem is minor. If you cannot put god in any logical theory, i doupt you could seriously put him in science or politic.
If God exists then the bible is making a big error? How?
If he does not exist the bible is making an error.
Are you aware of the Norse, the Celtic, the Shintoist prophesies ?
The above is what is known to everyone as mythology. None of it has come true. The Bible on the other hand has had prophesies which have been fulfilled. Mythology does not come true; it is fiction. I cannot see where comparisons between the Bible prophecy and the above mythology make sense.
hahaha, Christianism is know to be a mythology too. By the way, Odinist still exist and while you won’t find lots of prophecies in it; there was prophecies and some were probably fullfilled (not the Ragnarock yet but the invasion of foreigner was). There was lots of account of vikings chief having vision of Hugin and Munin before a sucessfull raid. I don,t know a lot about celtic prophecies, but i am sure some have been fulfilled. Also the prophecies of the End of the World is very similar to the christian mythology. The only real distinction between the Christian Mythology and the Norse Mythology is that one is still very strong, while the other is making a near death experience :)
If you want to choose wisely your religion, you should look about other one before making a choise (not serious)
Just because we cannot find documentation elsewhere does not mean it did not happen. There is not any documentation anywhere that I ate breakfast today; but that does not mean it did not happen.
If we find documentation stating otherwise, that is another situation. I have never read or heard of any historical documents or archaelogical finds which have proven the Bible false.
True, but there is no reason to think it is true either…
If the bible is true, and god exist
Then why god would make him so hard to see with logic ?
Why so many scientist/philosopher are atheist ?
And if god does exist (and he does’nt)
Then the bible is making a very big error.
Actually there are some Roman historians who have documented Jesus’ existance. Sorry i can’t readily produce them. The fact that a “prophet” name Jesus wandered Palastine/Israel around 2000 years ago is rarely contested. Usually the question is “is he who he says he is, and did he truly die and rise from the grave”?
Agreed, but some things are’nt historical, like the great entry of Jesus in Jerusalem. It seems that the Romans did not see that :)
I would say he truly die :)
… but he did’nt rise from the grave
They do not need to be sperical, they only need to have a curve somewhere in their design, a cylinder is’nt a sphere it still got an infinity of sides. Any curse is made of an infinity of side, if you take a sphere, or a cylinder, well any kind of geometric form with curve; you well get an infinity of side.
If we look at the geometric form composign the mouvement of an electron around the atom, what would we get ? 4 sides ? 6 sides ? or an infinity of sides because it is a curve ?
@TM:
I do my best to believe in the Bible… :(
Herrn FinsterniS,
Pascal’s Wager showed that you should believe in God with all your heart, as there is nothing to lose, but everything to gain from that choice if that it was correctly made. I do not think Christians or undecideds should believe in this. Simply choosing God because you might ‘get yours’ in the end is not the answer. It only shows you working selfishly to help obtain a possible eternal reward. One’s hope, inner goodness, and true compassion towards others should be its own reward. My only reasonable response is that Christians or any other theist should stray away from this scare tactic to force people to convert to their religion. Religion should be chosen from faith and love in God… not because it offers a possible payoff.
Perfectly reasonable even if i still think religion is harming our society, probably even more america and underdevelopped society (sadly).
@TM:
Herrn FinsterniS,
My knowledge of science and mathematics is very limited, but I have come to believe that infinity can only exist in one’s mind. I have only witnessed potential infinity, not actual infinity. Can you please correct me if I am wrong?
Then you would side with Poincaré…
Well, the time continuum and the space continuum can be consider an exemple of infinity as you can always divide any time/space by 2 (or any other numbers…). If you cannot divide an X distance by 2, then an atom that move does’nt move, it teleport itself between X and X+1 because there is nothing between X and X+1… Also an atoms is made from an infinity of side; like any sphere, circle, curve… Infinity is potential when when we look at numbers, but in time and space it is more problematic.
What the poppulation in the US think about an eventual attack of Iraq ?
Regardless of whether or not you believe the bible is a lie, what do you have to lose? If you live your entire life in the Christian way, by doing good for others and treating others how you would like to be treated, and then you die and find out there’s no heaven, what have you got to lose?
“Le pari de Pascal”… hmmm.
If you do not believe in Odin, you have all to loose; your place at his side when Ragnarok will come.
If you do not purges yourself as the Shintoist are doing… you have all to loose…
If you do not follow the 5 (?) verity of the buddhism, you are everything to loose also…
“Le pari de Pascal” might be a good argument; only if there was only one religion. Also christianism is often harming science, logic and philosophy while embracing reductionism and antropocentrism, so yes i see a lot of things to loose with religion; my free will, my mind, my logic, myself… I do not want to lie to my future children just because i was too afraid or too lazy to think by myself :)
CC you “dodge” my question and the question of F_alk…
Also i have a question; god “give us a purpose” in life, but what of the animals ?
And what purpose god give us ?
What do you mean by what prophesis? I am disappointed, because I thought you said you did your homework on this stuff?
I read the bible… but a long time ago, and like i said if god is a lie, the bible is a lie too in some part at least… Sure it must not be completly incoherent, but when speaking of god, the ark of noah and anything in science/moral; well it is false.
If you do not understand the fulfillment of the prophesies, you are not making a fully informed decision on what you believe.
Are you aware of the Norse, the Celtic, the Shintoist prophesies ?
God cannot be in any logical explanation of anything, in brief god is a theory without any sence as I and F_alk try to explain, so the bible is essentialy wrong.
Why god would make him so invisible to logic ?
What purpose does god give us ?
Why animal have no souls while we have one, as it seem we are not very different from them ?
I believe it represents the Truth. It has been backed up by history and some of it’s prophesies are still being fulfilled today.
Backed up by what ? The holy crusade, the end of geocentrism, the discoveries of evolution ? I will give you the prophecy of Zola about religion; it will always retreat before science. That prophesies is beign fulfilled.
And what prophesies anyway ? the bible is so vague… You know when some things happen and seem to fit with the bible, people say it’s a prophesy, when the bible says the earth was flat or other absurdities like the Ark of Noah or pi = 3; it’s just a bad interpretation, clearly there is fanatism somewhere…
For the Criminal Court to work, every country must have equal representation and equal say. The United Nation is one example of an organization that suffers too much from being run too much by American and European interest. The Criminal Court should let the smaller countries’ voice be heard, to let them know that they also make a difference.
The USA doest not want that… in fact the USA are making lots of thing against the international community, i wonder how it will finish… the Agriculture financement, the Steel problem, Kyoto, International Court and more recently the USA did’nt sign the protocol against torture, theses are all problems that are raising antiamerican feeling in Europe…
@TG:
"Anyways, I have a qustion about the ICC. Can the countries that do NOT sign the treaty still be held accountable for war crimes and the like?
No, that’s why the USA does not want it sign, they know some of their generals would be accused. The ICC might only work if all country sign it, it would not be easy but one day we will need an international court so we are better starting now.
EmuGod i don’t agree and i find your remarks to be particularly cruel, nobody deserve to be massacre in useless attack. But i won’t try to argue anymore, i don’t like my position and i don’t want to side with the NAZI, however your assumptions are exagerated…
“I, and F_alk, are from Germany,
We are also representing the Atheistic Leftish European”FinsterniS is German? I thought he was some French dude. I know Strasbourg is on the border of Germany and France, but wha-what the hell?
I’m in France, but i am born in Germany (Not that i don’t like Germany !)
C’est beau la France :D … aber es ist heiss :(
“Weisswurst ? You are not vegetarian ?”
For all she probably knows, it’s probably some sort of German mustard. Heck, all I know is that it’s some sort of white sausage that is some [Southern] Germans are famous far.
Old bavarian recipies i think, anyway i doupt a vegetarian would eat that :)
