Posts made by DrLarsen

Yeah, it’s one thing to have a set of advanced weapons that are 1 notch (or even half a notch) better than the typical, but so many of the new 3d-printed “expansions” just seem so out there…

@DrLarsen:

To me it seems simple: if you’re going to do Super-BB’s, do them for everyone before you stop and do flying boats for some nation…

Wait, on second thought, just skip the stupid flying boats altogether… And those silly gliders and all the other ridiculous and useless units (Landkreuzer P 1000 Ratte, here’s looking at you!)  Has anyone actually gotten any use out of those flying boats or gliders or ridiculous uber-weapons?  Am I missing something here…?!?

Well, I hope you’re wrong about the de-emphasis on sculpts, too.  I try to spend money on all kinds of HBG products to show my support, but it’s the new pieces that make the whole thing worthwhile for me.

As for the 3d modelled ones, I’ve ordered quite a few, both from the HBG site and directly from Shapeways, but I continually find it frustrating that they’re such a mixed bag… So far we have available super-BB’s for Germany, Japan and France… and the Netherlands… but not the USA or UK?  We have a “Taiho-Kai” but no Midway or Malta?  And does anyone get what his obsession is for flying boats?  I can’t for the life of me come up with a use for them…

Meanwhile, though the Amerika piece set + its expansion gives us nearly every jet or heavy tank we could want, they’re available only in a very limited color palette, so they’re not in the colors that I’ve been using for elites (Dark Green for US, Red for Japan & Black for Germany.)  On the other hand, if I switch and have the darker colors be the “normal” and the lighter Amerika shades be the “elites/ heavies” the holes in HBG’s legacy line-up make this difficult, too.  (e.g., no small ships at all available in the dark green…)  It’s like the company has ADD and can’t focus on the little details enough to maintain consistency or logically-fleshed-out model lines across individual products…

To me it seems simple: if you’re going to do Super-BB’s, do them for everyone before you stop and do flying boats for some nation…

Got mine too, last week, and have to generally concur with the mixed feelings: quite happy that they’re finally out and give us some great new options (Pz IV, PBB, greatcoat inf, etc) but a little disappointed in the mold quality/ detail.  I actually thought the PBB was even worse than the Bismark!  The Leipzig was rather misshapen, too, but it’s so small on this scale that its a little hard to tell, really.  After the amazing near-perfection in the sculpts/ molds for the Amerika & Amerika Expansion pieces, this was a real let-down… but then we should maintain perspective: compared head-to-head with oob pieces, even the worst ones in this set aren’t bad in terms of detail; just maybe a little less… oh… “crisp” I would say, maybe partly because of the duller, less “shiny” plastic material (which is consistent with previous HBG products.)

So, overall, while I’d say that they only fall a bit short of the original/ usual HBG standards; it’s just because they fall so far short of the raised bar that was the Amerika piece set that it seems like it’s worse than it really is…

Was there something radically different in the whole production process between the Amerika set and the Germany #3 set that explains the big quality gap, though?  It does seem a little mystifying to me…

Yeah, one way or another, it’s a lot of data to try to take in all at once…  Which does give some perspective on just how much HBG has accomplished over the years…

Yeah, I noticed that too after I posted.  I also attached the MS Word file, so you could try opening or downloading that.  I could also try converting it to pdf?  Part of the problem is that with 12 sets and almost 30 unit types, it’s hard to get them to fit without making them small… But maybe I’m missing a trick?

Aha, it looks like that worked… Now here’s the other one, a comprehensive list of all the sculpts HBG has done.  Feel free to let me know if I’ve missed anything and I’ll make corrections…

HBG Supplemental Set Piece-Type List C.doc

I thought I’d post this chart that organizes all the current HBG sets/ colors/ nations since I found it helpful in planning/ organizing my own collection… Hopefully this works…

HBG Colors & Nations.doc

@CWO:

Although they’re scaled too big for use in A&A, Navwar has a huge array of 1:3000 scale cast metal warships (WWII and other eras), including some classes which were projected but never laid down or completed.� Â

http://www.navwar.co.uk/nav/pdf/webcat.pdf
http://www.navwar.co.uk/nav/default.asp

I own a small fleet of Navwar WWII-era battleships, though I’ve never yet gotten around to using them in a tabletop game.�  I’ve supplemented them with some epoxy WWII-era carriers from Panzerschiffe.�  They’re a bit larger scale (1:2400) than my battleships, but the difference isn’t too noticeable when they’re side by side.�  Navwar has carriers too, but I got the Panzerschiffe ones because they’re less expensive; my main interest is in battleships, not so much in carriers, so I didn’t bother to invest in a metal carrier fleet.

http://www.panzerschiffe.com/

I actually have a fair # of Navwar & Davco ships in 1/3000 and Panzerschiffen in 1/2400.  (I basically have 1 of most of the key ship-types for each CA, CV, & BB, though my Navwar range has some gaps, as I found them a little hard to get ahold of over here across the pond…)

But like you said, they’re too big for A&A.  I also tried 1/4800, but they’re too small.  One would want a true “Super-BB/ CV/ CA” to be noticeably bigger, not a little smaller than the standard type.  I suppose if one replaced entire navies it would work, but I haven’t been ready to seriously contemplate this yet… I remain hopeful that HBG will come through with a few more of these and then we’ll have a range sized just right…

…But back on topic, HBG’s wonderful products:

Just picked up several of their new 3d-printed “expansion” pieces, and I’m quite Impressed.  Good concept, too; It gives the option of picking up just a few “advanced” or truly unique units for each nation that you’d never need in bulk, like an H-Class or a “Super-Yamato” or a Taiho armored carrier.  I also like having an Alsace and a Bretagne: now at least I have a COUPLE of French ships that aren’t Soviet.  (It STILL mystifies me why WotC gave France Soviet units;  have any of you out there ever even heard of a rational explanation for it?)  I don’t see the logic of some of the 3-d printed options, though… Short Sunderland sea planes?  What would we ever use that for?

What I’m eagerly hoping for to round out the set of “super-ship” expansion pieces is a US Montana super-BB, Midway super-CV, a British Malta super-CV and either a Lion or a Vanguard class for a British super-BB.  I know Variable sells 1/1800 Midways and Maltas at least on his Shapeways site, and I bought one of each to paint up for my WW2 “Mini-Museum…”  I’m somewhat mystified why he hasn’t gotten around to re-sizing at least those two to oh, about 1/4000 or so for HBG to sell as AAA accessories.  Heck, seeing as Variable also has a Sovietsky Soyuz in 1/1800, he ought to re-scale that one too, just to give us a complete set of super-BB’s…  Since the Soyuz was roughly based on the Italian UP41 design, it could be painted (or maybe even printed) in both shades of brown to give a complete set of super-BB’s for all the major powers in the game!  (Once, that is, they’ve got a Lion and a Montana to go along with it…)

@DrLarsen:

@Flashman:

Regarding the proposed Civil War game, do HBG need to produce anything other than ships in terms of plastic pieces?

Who doesn’t already have plenty of infantry, cavalry and artillery for this conflict; yet we lack warships and ironclads entirely.

I would also be in the market for generic ship models for the ancient, medieval and sailing ship eras. As well as space marines, aliens and starships of course.

I don’t want to think the company believes it needs to produce entire games in order to make it worthwhile�  expanding into new periods of history.

I want basic Napoleonic ships far more than I need 23 different types of Italian tank in 8 new shades of brown.

Off Topic, I know, but have you tried the “Civilization” pieces from Eagle Games?  Don’t even know how available they still are, but back when they were still in business, I stocked up on them…

Being curious, I did a little checking around, and sure enough, somewhat to my surprise, whoever bought out Eagle Games’ stock (“Eagle-Griffon Games”?) still has Civ military units available in 5 or 6 different colors.  Last time I set up a Napoleonic Era Game (built on Eagle’s Napoleon in Europe Components), I used Civ “caravels” as frigates and their ships-of-the-line for, well, SotL… Last Time I set up a Roman-era game I used the Civ “galleys” as light galleys (as they’re much smaller than Eagle’s CotE galleys) Depending on how picky you are about sculpts, I suppose, but they’d at least get the job done.  Unfortunately, they don’t seem to be available anymore in red, blue or green, but you could always paint…  Nice thing about the Civ piece-set is that they have an infantry, cavalry, artillery, and a ship piece in the set for Ancient, Medieval, Gunpowder, and Modern Eras, so they could be used to give you some basics for many periods of history… Ironclads is a tough one; closest thing I know of is Eagle’s War! Age of Imperialism (W!AoE.)  Their naval piece is basically a stylized Victorian pre-dreadnought; once again, they do still have them by the runner on the website in numerous colors…

@Flashman:

Regarding the proposed Civil War game, do HBG need to produce anything other than ships in terms of plastic pieces?

Who doesn’t already have plenty of infantry, cavalry and artillery for this conflict; yet we lack warships and ironclads entirely.

I would also be in the market for generic ship models for the ancient, medieval and sailing ship eras. As well as space marines, aliens and starships of course.

I don’t want to think the company believes it needs to produce entire games in order to make it worthwhile  expanding into new periods of history.

I want basic Napoleonic ships far more than I need 23 different types of Italian tank in 8 new shades of brown.

Off Topic, I know, but have you tried the “Civilization” pieces from Eagle Games?  Don’t even know how available they still are, but back when they were still in business, I stocked up on them…

@xxstefanx:

Please do not loose the main aspect of the set: FRENCH WWI

Yes, you could use the set - at least various pieces - for other nations, BUT I would strongly recommend a perfect historically accurate French WOrld War 1 set in the first place! (unique as selling point!  :wink:)

Considering this you COULD think about making 2 Infantry sculpts, one for the 1914 uniform (with cap) and the “most of the war” 1915-1918 one (with helmet).
To say it with IL’s words: Economically I would produce 1 Infantry sculpt which clearly has to be the latter classic one.

Again, the early-war Infantry could be included later in an Expanded set.
But, of course after all other nations had their basic sets first!
(if the French set is a success Germany ought to be next!)

I think you’ve convinced me, Stefan, to get past my ambivalence: The priority for French infantry should definitely be the Adrian helmet (and so the cavalry with Adrian helmet is fine, too if he does do cavalry)  Since his other French set will have a beret, having one Adrian-helmet infantry is crucial, especially considering how widely used it was by other allies: the Russians, Italians, Belgians, Greeks, even the Japanese started out with it!  (… and I’m sure I’m leaving out another half-dozen users that you guys will think of…)  It was truly one of the “big 3” original modern infantry helmets along with the Stallhelm and the British Brodie.  If he does a second infantry, I say, THEN do the early-war kepi.

@coachofmany:

There will be no Armored Trains at this time.

Way to lay down the law, Coach!  :-D

But seriously, I do like your original concept, as it is ingeniously flexible, possible as a supplement for both periods.  For sculpts I’m in general agreement.  I like the idea of an “early war infantry” but am also conflicted, as this makes is a tad less applicable for ww2 (though the French did sometimes wear kepis even later… though mostly the officers…)  I DO think though, that you should either do the Adrian helmet for both infantry and cavalry (making both more late-war in flavor) or for neither, making both more early war.  (I’m not too worried about the French Cavalry’s applicability in WW2)  For early-war French cavalry, you need one with the crested helmet (which incidently could serve for Austrian cavalry, too, which might make for an interesting item in the individual piece department, especially as Austrian cavalry didn’t necessarily have uniforms in the same color as their infantry, so you wouldn’t have to make the full French set in Austrian colors for us to use them this way, rather we could just let the Austrian cavalry be their stubbornly loath to modernize selves…)

Anyway, I’m torn about late vs. early war style uniforms for French infantry and cavalry, but think you should be consisten for at least these two pieces.

@Harry:

I’m starting to get the impression most of this forum is just one long discussion between Imperious Leader and Flashman.

Well, they do seem among the most prolific and willing to “mix it up,” that’s for sure, but hopefully without any serious rancor involved.  Since the game is inherently trying to straddle the fence between balance and historicity without becoming TOO too complicated, the debates here are nearly inevitable.  My teaching schedule doesn’t allow me to be able to keep up as regularly as I’d like with these threads, but I do enjoy going back and following them when I can.  I personally tend to side with Flash but I realize that this is only a personal preference, mostly, and also a result of how I typically use these games: as a tool to teach kids history tempered with a little logic/ strategy.  I’m thus much less concerned with such things as game balance, because I don’t really care who wins, but what everyone learns.  I also like them to think about “what-ifs” though, which is why I do like Flash’s basic rule that those who realistically COULD have produced something can in the game.  The rest of the argument strikes me as mostly a debate between those who love the game primarily as an HISTORICAL wargame and those who love it as a historical WARGAME.  Since we all love the game for our own reasons, the answer is to make the game flexible enough to be “all things to all people” without it becoming too expensive for anybody… admittedly another difficult balance.

The passion in the arguments is really a reflection of how much we all love the game and want it to be EVEN better.  With that in mind, I really hope the second edition fixes some of those bone-headed color choices: IL’s upcoming game looks like a big improvement to me in this respect as in many others.  Piece-wise, it looks like it might be fairly close to ideal for me!  Here’s hoping that IL’s game sells out in no time and that the HasBorg apparatus takes note of its success and uses some of its better ideas in their 2nd ed.!

@Flashman:

If I can tell a destroyer from a cruiser I’m doing well.

If anything, I actually prefer generic sculpts for ships as it means fewer outlines to have to remember.

Not so for planes, though. I want at least 3 different types of fighter sculpt for each side.

That’s partly because of the scales they use. Â They usually make the BB’s & CA/CL’s somewhere around 1/3200 so they’re not too big for the board, but make DD’s closer to 1/2400 so they’re not too tiny. Â Understandable from a playability standpoint, but sometimes makes DD’s too close in size to cruisers. Â For the ww2 models, Flashman, CA’s inevitably have BB-style twin or triple turrets (though smaller ones) which make them fairly easy to distinguish, whereas DD’s have much smaller guns that barely stand out from the rest of the ship on this scale, so that’s how I’ve always told them apart. Â It could presumably get a bit more difficult w/ ww1 ships, though, since CL’s of that era rarely ever had fully enclosed gunhouses, much less twin or triple turrets for their 4-6" guns. Â

Older ACR’s had turrets just like BB’s, but had become even more obsolete than pre-dreadnought BB’s, being rapidly left behind by turbine engine tech. Â This meant that many turbine-engined dreadnought BB’s were faster than the old ACR’s (in some cases even ones just one design-generation older!) Â And that’s on top of totally outgunning them! Â CA’s hadn’t been invented yet…

So there could be even more of a problem in telling apart CL’s and DD’s of this period if size differences aren’t carefully maintained… but just look for those turrets on the ww2-era pieces!

@wittmann:

Thank you Flashman.
I suppose if it was just the one ship, then I can see why it need not be represented. (Though for balance and more African interest it could be included.)
Liked reading its history.

I was more than one ship, though; the bulk of the German Far East Squadron went east, annhilated a British squadron at Coronel and then were finally annhilated in turn by the British CC’s at the Falklands… but they could have turned west w/ Konigsburg… then again, they had all successfully eluded the British Far East Squadron, so to maintain balance, perhaps both need a ship in the region if you give one such a ship… Idk, interesting possibilities for experimentation, but hard to know how to represent all the potential moving parts fairly.

@Flashman:

You mean these?

http://www.historicalboardgaming.com/HBG-Battle-Pieces–WW2-Russia-Early-War-Set-Red_p_824.html

But you only get 4 infantry…

Remember, they don’t just sell in sets, so you can get just the infantry!  And remember that you have the choice of 4 colors, all with a reddish hue!

IL: Yep, as I suspected, after a second look, that top destroyer looks like a Bouclier class to me (though it does seem to be missing a stack, but maybe the picture’s resolution obscures it, which means that they likely pretty much went with your suggestions for all three ship types.  Given that all of the various types of “Admiralty”-type destroyers and most of the German grossetorpedoboots had a similar look, that’s a solid choice for those two.  France was pretty weak in destroyers, so the Bouclier might be a tad more controversial of a choice, but it does make sense to stay consistent with the 3-option paradigm and give a complete set of French equipment (I don’t know that either the Russians or Italians were that much better off naval-wise anyway.)

Tall Paul: Sorry, this means no US 4-piper.  Here’s the consolation, though: the 4-pipers converted to “green dragons” generally lost a pipe anyway, and so they probably wouldn’t be all that far off from the look of the Admiralty type or the Bouclier, anyway.  (They do have a raised forecastle rather than a flush-deck from the looks of it, but some of the APD classes were made from other destroyer classes; perhaps some of them also had raised forecastles, too, and even if they didn’t, it’s a small difference that only a nerd like me would probably notice…)

The bottom line of the APD concept was to take relatively low-combat-value destroyers by using either old DD or new DE hulls, and rebuild them for the new mission, so the layout specs could be quite variable… and if different ships had been available, different ones would have been used.  The 4-pipers were used mainly because the US had made like, 300 of these things, most of which were finished too late to get into WW1, so alot of them had gone almost straight from the shipbuilders to mothballs… and thus had hulls in relatively good shape for ships that old by ww2, making them available for reuse and experimentation.

Tralis has a good point; I don’t see much room in the game mechanics for much new to add.  Destroyers is the only obvious choice to me mechanics-wise, which is why I voted for them.  Elite Infantry/ stormtroopers could also work, depending on how they are done mechanically, but using regular AA pieces would be perfect for this anyway (use the black Germans for Germans and MB grey Germans for Austrians… and perhaps some others could be used this way too… and then there’s the piece set that’s coming with IL’s game, which could open up some new possibilities right there, including DD’s and stormtroopers built right in to a whole new piece set (with better colors) that could be used across both games…