@SS-GEN While I’m see the numbers that you have provided, I have to admit that I still don’t know what they are nor what they mean? Could you provide a single case for how you arrived at these numbers, and what they mean?
I’m thinking that this is somehow related to cost, and perhaps, something like “Bang for your Buck”, but as I don’t know the process, I cannot really comment on it.
Let me do this, let’s take a classic board and give it various setups, starting with normal ships, using normal values. Classic only has 4 ship types, so to include all these, we should probably use two seperate battles, the Russian attack on the German Baltic fleet, and the Japanese attack on Hawaiian island sea zone.
Battle of the Baltic:
| R1 Baltic |
TR |
SS |
DD |
CL |
CA |
BB |
CVL |
CV |
F |
B |
TOTAL |
LL |
MAD |
RESULTS |
| Attacker Forces |
1@O |
1@2 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
2@3 |
|
8 |
1 + 1-2/D6 |
We can use this space to input any possible result on a d6 |
|
| Defender Forces |
1@1 |
1@2 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
3 |
0 + 1-3/D6 |
and use this number against both force’s remainders |
|
So this is a simple situation, and for now, lets ignore the sub first shot attack. We wouldn’t do that in an actual game, but this is just an example for demonstrating a concept, and I want to focus on that concept alone for right now. For purposes of MAD, we only consider a forces remainder, rather then total strength, and so for our purposes the defenders remainder of three is used on the single roll, so that, either way, the defender is going to take one casualty for sure, but if it takes that second hit on a 2 of less, they will automatically hit once, themselves.
Now let’s look at this second hit as a submarine first shot attack! Say the roll is a one, the results are as stated above, but now let’s look at what happens when the roll was a two. In both cases, with a MAD roll of 1 or 2, the defender has to take one ship off, and this ship does not get to fire back, and as AcesWild5049 pointed out elsewhere, if we ‘roll by column’ then the sub would be fired first, and if we ‘rolled the sub first’ by explicit rule, then that has to be decided before the rest of the attackers fire is accounted for.
So, if the defender choose to lose the TR to the sub, then it cannot fire back, and as his sub cannot hit air, then that is something to keep in mind for later/larger battles. If the Defender instead chooses to lose the SS to the attackers sub, then the situation changes. After the sub’s attack, the defender is going to have just one unit left to fire. If the sub is chosen, then the remainder drops to a ‘1’, and if a two had been the MAD roll, the defender wouldn’t hit on a ‘2’, and so both defending ships would be lost, without cost to the attacker.
In the above example, let’s say the MAD roll was a three. The attacking force, with a remainder of ‘2’ would miss, and the defending player would score 1 hit and combat would end after the next round, as the fighters would get an automatic kill at that point.
On a quick diversion, let’s visit a slightly different attack:
| R1 Baltic |
TR |
SS |
DD |
CL |
CA |
BB |
CVL |
CV |
F |
B |
TOTAL |
LL |
MAD |
RESULTS |
| Attacker Forces |
|
1@2 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
2@3 |
|
8 |
1 + 1-2/D6 |
We can use this space to input any possible result on a d6 |
|
| Defender Forces |
1@1 |
1@2 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
3 |
0 + 1-3/D6 |
and use this number against both force’s remainders |
|
In this attack, the more discerning player sees a chance to pull off a fast one, and simply doesn’t bring his TR at all.
Tell me why, and how this potentially helps the attacker?
Ok, so back to the ‘Battle for the Baltic’
Historically, the Axis had control of/use of most of the Baltic for most of the duration of WWII, and most certainly in the spring of 1942, when A&A Classic starts off. One of my suggestions for attempting to ‘balance’ classic against an early curb-stomping of Germany, is to put a German BB into the Baltic {Historically, the Tirpitz was operational in Jan, 1942}, and as the map doesn’t allow for her do be stationed in a Norwegian fordje, then we have to have her in the Baltic sea zone.
I’ll need to do this in three seperate tables, I think…
| R1 Baltic |
TR |
SS |
DD |
CL |
CA |
BB |
CVL |
CV |
F |
B |
TOTAL |
LL |
MAD |
RESULTS |
| Attacker Forces |
1@0 |
1@2 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
2@3 |
|
8 |
1 + 1-2/D6 |
We can use this space to input any possible result on a d6 |
|
| Defender Forces |
1@1 |
1@2 |
|
|
|
1@4 1 htk |
|
|
|
|
7 |
1 + 1/D6 |
and use this number against both force’s remainders |
|
So, for all three examples, and without any insights gained from thinking this through, let us just assume the Russian player is going to carry out this attack, irregardless of losses and probabilities. How does having a German BB, with just 1 ‘hit to kill’ {As per Classic rules} change things? I don’t want to do the ‘sub shot’ specific in each and every example, so from now on I won’t treat it as anything other than an ordinary dice roll, for purposes of discussion. Now the attacking and defending forces are much more evenly balanced, as both sides are getting an automatic kill on the first round, and to speed this up, lets just make a ‘convenience rule of thumb’, where remainders of ‘1-2’ always miss, ‘3-4’ can be hits, and ‘5’ always hit. So in this first round, both sides hit each other once, and then on the second round, after losses, both sides hit each other again one time, and this leaves us 1 German BB vs 2 Russian fighters, so the BB is going to likely take one fighter out, but is definitely dead itself. While that is an improvement over how the R1 turn normally plays out, it still reflects an ahistorical situation, where Germany has no fleet in early 1942. As we all know, the Tirpitz didn’t finally end until late 1944, and that means something like late turn 6 of a 7 turn game, with D-Day taking place in late turn 5. So, how better to give Germany a core to build a fleet around?
Post classic, at some point the ‘two hit Battleship’ came into the picture, so let us next do that.
| R1 Baltic |
TR |
SS |
DD |
CL |
CA |
BB |
CVL |
CV |
F |
B |
TOTAL |
LL |
MAD |
RESULTS |
| Attacker Forces |
1@0 |
1@2 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
2@3 |
|
8 |
1 + 1-2/D6 |
We can use this space to input any possible result on a d6 |
|
| Defender Forces |
1@1 |
1@2 |
|
|
|
1@4 2 htk |
|
|
|
|
7 |
1 + 1/D6 |
and use this number against both force’s remainders |
|
Ok, everything above starts off the same, and the only real difference is going to be hat both forces are going to be just as deadly in round two, because the Defending BB can now soak that first hit, and so the Russian TR is killed and the German BB eats the first hit, the second round, neither side scores more than a single hit, and so now the Russian sub and German TR bite the farm. At this point, BOTH side retain the ability to get 1 hit guaranteed, and this means a russian fighter dies, and so does the German sub. With even odds, the damaged BB and the remaining fighter could go either way, but odds are, if the remaining fighter doesn’t kill it, the UK player will.
Germany actually gets a turn, and could use their BB, or build more bullet stopper SS/TR, to try and keep it alive. For simplicity’s sake, let’s say we are going with the auto repair in TripleA, where damaged ships get repaired for free, at the start of a players turn. While in actual play this may not be the methodology in use, it is easier by far to muddle through this concept. That leaves us, with a fully repaired BB in the baltic, in time for combat movement on G1.
For simplicity’s sake, let’s just assume that the German player does nothing with the Baltic BB {However unlikely this may be} and so come the UK’s turn, they could throw an attack that would likely kill the German BB, or certainly kill the German BB, at a probable cost of a UK fighter, and a possible cost of a second fighter if things played out badly for the UK player. So we still have a Germany without a fleet, by the end of turn, B1. Better, but still not there yet.
| R1 Baltic |
TR |
SS |
DD |
CL |
CA |
BB |
CVL |
CV |
F |
B |
TOTAL |
LL |
MAD |
RESULTS |
| Attacker Forces |
1@0 |
1@2 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
2@3 |
|
8 |
1 + 1-2/D6 |
We can use this space to input any possible result on a d6 |
|
| Defender Forces |
1@1 |
1@2 |
|
|
|
1@4 4 htk |
|
|
|
|
7 |
1 + 1/D6 |
and use this number against both force’s remainders |
|
In this final chart, we finally get to see what my proposed ‘4 hit BB’ would have on game setup. First off, we can see immediately that any surviving Russian units is an extremely unlikely outcome, and that keeping the submarine is the only possible, however unlikely, way forward for the R1 attack to ‘sink the Bismarck!’ er, wait, ‘sink the Tirpitz!’:relaxed:
Anyway, if nothing else, I think I have demonstrated that the Germans need help in the Baltic, and that a two-hit BB won’t do.
This post started over an hour ago, and I’m tired and sleepy now, do done for the moment…
