Posts made by Col.Stauffenberg

@Zhukov44:

Agreed that Germany takes a whole lot of risks G1, but I think considering R1 and UK1, Allies are exposing themselves even more.  SZ15 and Egy can be really dicey early in the game, and Ukraine and West Russia can both be decisive.  An extra inf to Lib is massive imo because it can make a UK1 Egy counter risky or potentially disastrous.

Whichever side is favored, first round dice will always be more significant than bids.

Exactly. But Germany has the most potential game ending round 1 fights. If they only loses 1 plane and take Egypt with at least 3 pieces, and take West Russia and don’t get hammered in Ukraine, they’re in business. It got to the point in our games where we would start over after disasterous German first turns, even though we weren’t spreading ourselves too thin. The axis have been winning the majority of our games but it’s more even. Whoever thinks allies need a bid are not playing them aggressively enough.

@Hobbes:

There are a lot of attacks on round 1 that if go wrong can seriously tilt the game either side besides those you listed:

• Russia losing on Ukraine or West Russia
• UK failing to retake Egypt
• Japan losing on SZ52 or China or Buryatia or losing a capital ship

-That’s why we took the plane out of Ukraine and moved it to Italy. Ukraine shouldn’t be so decisive - it can be as bad for Rus as Ger.
-If UK retakes Egypt on round 1, it’s game over for the axis. Germany’s going to be too broke.
-those aren’t game ending for Japan since they can get away with murder, but regardless of what happens to Japan on round 1, they should be able to take care of their priorities. Of course there has been a perfect storm of disaster for Japan, but that doesn’t happen too often.

@MrMalachiCrunch:

As was mentioned several times……  The Jap planes DON’T refuse to fight in asia as they work their way to WEu.  Yes you can do Pearl on J1.  If Bury is stacked, either you can hit it with good odds in which case good for Japan or you don’t hit it on round 1.  Bury cannot be stacked for ever.  If Jap builds 3 transports on J1 which is fairly typical, do you really want ANY allied units on the Asian coast?

How often does French-Indo get taken by the brits on R1?  Usually, Brit is looking to retake Egy.  If so, big deal…the allies got lucky and so what?  With 4 transports assuming Brits kill one, 4 transports and 2 battleships take out anything the allies have on the asian coast.

If the allies are leaving around lots of units so that you need your air to mop them up, great, victory Axis.  Again, in a KGF, Jap attacks China and Pearl on J1 as it takes until J3 for air assests to get in place in WEu.

So, the allies (US) are dropping units of in Algeria, so that Infantry you build on US1 moves to Persia on US6.  Six rounds later…, SIX rounds later those early builds are just now coming into play.  I wonder what Jap would have in store for any leading stack of US forces by round 6?

I played the US that way against Fortress Europe when I first was confronted with Fortress Europe.  You know what was frustrating?  NOT being able to get allied units past Egypt.  Jap rotates transports from Sz60,61 to Sz36.  That means Jap almost always has 2+ transports that can drop off infantry right where those leading US forces want to be, and that is backed up by a stack of Tanks.

You will find that you will have to hang out in Lib until your US stack is big enough to slowly march across Egy, then TRj, then Per.  That is 3 different places the Japanese KNOW you will move to, so they will position their forces so that you are bottled up in Africa.

So, just know that Jap WILL use their air assets for whatever suits them on J1 (read Pearl and China and places unknown).  Then as the assets migrate to WEu they will still attack anything juicy or necessary.  What land forces your build on US1-3 will be facing attack in Persia 6 rounds later which gives the Japanese alot of time to have tanks and naval assets in place to deal with that extremely long supply line.  The US will be trying to figure out how to get their builds past the Japs and near the USSR via Africa and Germany will be leaning VERY far forward.

Japan can build a tank on round 3 on Japan, that tank will be in FIC on Round 4 ready to attack Persia on round 5.  On the other hand, the Infantry the US builds on Round 1 will take until round 6 to be able to attack Persia.  There is no way for the US to build enough of a stack to move past Persia when confronted with a very short supply line of the Japanese and the Jap player knows where your builds will be for 6 rounds…Eus, then Alg, Lib, Egy, Trj then finally Per.

I do look forward to being able to dissect a Fortress Europe defeat.  I wish it were easier to review historical TripleA games.

Ok so what’s going on in Asia this whole time? Japan has three areas of approach they have to deal with. And I don’t see how a stale mate in Persia is to the axis advantage. And how do they build 3 trans on round 1? What are they using to defend it? Because UK can get a Carrier, a plane and a bomber in striking range before they even build.

@GCar:

For your second question, we already mentionned that Fortress Europe is a plan against KGF (kill Germany first), it doesn’t beat every single ally strategy. If US goes after Japan instead of going after Germany this is not KGF anymore and obviously you keep the planes in Japan viscinity since you don’t need them in Europe anymore (Germany can handle UK + Russia alone) and you really need those in the Pacific to slow down the US attack. It is a bit like chess. 1…e7-e5 is a very fine move against 1.e2-e4 but it is quite bad against 1.d2-d4 :)

I wasn’t even talking about the US going for Japan. I meant, what does Japan do with America’s starting pieces, like the ones in China and Pearl? To fight them, you need planes, to not fight them would give US a massive headstart either against Japan or Germany. There’s too many fights for them to send planes to Egypt in non-combat on round 1 is what I’m saying, and what I understand is important for Fortress Europe.

We stopped playing because we thought the game too heavily favored the allies last summer. To fix we tested a bunch of national advantages and house rules. Here’s a list of what we now give Germany (and this is where many are going to think we’re insane)

-trade the tank with the artillery in africa
-one extra infantry in libya
-a extra sub in the med
-move the plane from Ukraine to Italy
-Allantic wall (Infantry and Art defend on a 3 in France, Germany and Norway)
-Jet Fighters - planes defend on a 5.

Seems excessive but we believe if Germany fails to take Egypt they can’t win. If they lose 3 planes right off the bat, they can’t win. The two national advantages hardly every come into play either.

@GCar:

@Col.Stauffenberg:

So say the planes sink the ships. What round does this usually happen? What have the allies been spending on? Because we usually spend 3 rounds on mostly ships as US/UK anyway.

-The winner of the war will usually be the side winning one of those 3 fronts. The problem is that when Japan will have a unit stack in Persia they will be having a way too strong double threat on Moscow/Africa and that with all the IPC drained early for UK/US to build fleets, they won’t be able to protect those 2 fronts. So basically it’s all about Germany holding their front while the inevitable happens on one of the other 2 fronts, hence the huge infantries spending for Germany.

That’s usually how every game goes if the Axis wins. Germany hangs in and waits for relatively unopposed Japan to become montrously huge but as far as them taking Africa, why is the US letting that happen? I get the UK has to worry about the Japanese planes but the US doesn’t. They can build up a big enough navy to move out as early as round 2. From there they can drop off in Africa round after round. It’s the safest, albiet slowest and most boring way for the allies to win. Just a massive march through africa.

I just don’t get how Japan is supposed to donate planes early and still spread globally with no problems. What do they do against Pearl? If New Guinea is taken? If French Indo is taken (meaning they lost a plane), what do they do against the Russian stack in Bury, the American forces in China? With only the resources we have on round one, we can do a good job of stalling Japan. I still see this as causing a greater delay for the axis then it does the allies.

@Hobbes:

@Col.Stauffenberg:

So say the planes sink the ships. What round does this usually happen? What have the allies been spending on? Because we usually spend 3 rounds on mostly ships as US/UK anyway. So the UK has to buy more boats, great, then they buy them. The UK and US capitols are only in danger in noob games so everything they buy is expendable. If the axis want to lose planes to kill US/UK boats, it’s a better trade for the allies. UK can save IPCS and buy their two loaded carriers and 4 destroyers if they want on round 2. I dunno. There’s a million ways around it.

As soon as I finish my test in mid August I’m getting AAA and making it a priority to test this strat (ie end this charade).

There are ways around it. But after having played with this strategy a lot of times and even losing to it, I’ll just say that I disagree with it being a ‘charade’.

Heh. So do I actually. I was just talking trash.

So say the planes sink the ships. What round does this usually happen? What have the allies been spending on? Because we usually spend 3 rounds on mostly ships as US/UK anyway. So the UK has to buy more boats, great, then they buy them. The UK and US capitols are only in danger in noob games so everything they buy is expendable. If the axis want to lose planes to kill US/UK boats, it’s a better trade for the allies. UK can save IPCS and buy their two loaded carriers and 4 destroyers if they want on round 2. I dunno. There’s a million ways around it.

As soon as I finish my test in mid August I’m getting AAA and making it a priority to test this strat (ie end this charade).

You guys keep repeating yourselves. You keep saying Fortress Europe does this and that but not why. It forces the allies to build more navy. How? Uk can overcome a four plane + bomber in at the most, 2 rounds. By themselves. How is this a big enough delay to win? I just can’t see it. Maybe you guys aren’t aggressive enough with the allies. You do a serious hardcore KGF to the point where no matter what happens, Germany is feeling serious heat on round 3.

That may be the case. Maybe I went off the rails abit and sounded like I was trashing the strategy when my intent was to say it’s no better then Germany having a Navy and Japan crossing the channel with theirs. At least as far as extra allied ship building is concerned. Japan may not need their planes later but they need them early, to crush boats in the Pacific and get their foothold in Asia, but Fortress Europe requires that they be donated ASAP. A saavy Allied play can gain some IPCS on the Japanese coast early and use that to fund the naval builds. They might even hold on to those territories if the Japanese have no air force to help reclaim them.

German navy also means the allies have to spend more on boats. Much more than they would if they had to face just planes. Sure Germany doesn’t have as many guys when they buy navy but they buy time by not having to defend France and Italy with as much and the extra transports make up for a lack of a front since the men you’re building can move 2 spaces.  When Japan goes through the channel, then UK still has to be careful about moving since Japan’s planes on their carriers can hit many spots.

@coorran:

He meant Sinkiang I guess.

That would make a lot more sense.

@Advosan:

The only way το beat Fortress Europe is to take advantage of the slow German advance in Europe. The Allies have 5-6 rounds to:a.Expell Germany from Africa, b.Kill as much Luftwaffe possible, c.Stall Japan as long as possible d.Prepare an invasion fleet.By round 6,if the Allies control Africa and are able to land in Karelia while Japan is behind the Yakut-Kwangtung-Persia line and Germany cannot yet take West Russia-Caucasus,the Allies have tipped the scales.It is not the end,not even the beginning of the end.But at least it is the end of the beginning.

A. Without a German Med navy, it’s going to be a lot easier to expel them from Africa
B. Germany can easily lose 2-3 planes on their first attacks, and after that, only an extremely careless Germany will lose more (I think it’s impossible to win if Germany loses 3 planes round 1)
C. A Japan without their initial starting planes is going to delay them by rounds.
D. Something they have to do anyway.
E. Round 6 and Japan supposed to be behind Kwangtung? That’s their coastline! That’s worse position than their starting one!

Think about the original topic. If the allies are so worried about only air force what do they do when Germany also has boats in the water and Japans fleet as crossed the channel? This what we always deal with in our games and we can still move. i would be relieved if air was the only threat.

Ok I’m done talking about this as you guys seem convinced this is the way to go. I would LOVE to challenge this strat but I don’t know how to install triple A. I’ve tried numerous times and can’t figure it out. Being afraid of 4 Japanese planes is ridiculous.

I’ve been playing almost twice a week for over ten years. My facebook record was 18-2 so I’m getting pretty tired of you assuming I have no clue what I’m talking about Cgar.

Still not convinced. UK only has to by a couple destroyers and an AC to defend against let’s say, 4 Jap planes and a Bomber. An equel number of hits but the defender has the advantage. US can donate say, 1 loaded carrier. If the japanese want to lose planes shooting that down when they seperate, fine. Their loss.

You keep assuming Japan can do everything- donate several planes, pressure Russia, make money in the pacific, & take all of Africa now. This would take at least 8 rounds. What the hell are the Allies doing all this time?

That said, the strat has merit. It would be good to use in a team game with 5 players since the allies will have problems co-ordinating but in a two player game with seasoned players, I don’t see how it would work. We’ve experimented with defensive German strategies and they never work. Germany is built for aggression and that’s how they should play.

@GCar:

Russia won’t keep 30 IPC because Japan will take Asia and hopefully Caucasus eventually. And it is not play economic victory it is just that when axis makes more money then allies it is pretty much all the time game over (excdept is Germany is on the verge of falling).

Obviously this strat is not winning 100 % of the time, no strat does. It is on the other hand the strat that gives axis the best odds if played correctly. Aas an exemple, it is much harder to play then just blitzing Russia with tanks :)

Well duh. Germany tank dash is the first strategy noobs come up with on their own. Also, most games are won by the Axis with Japan making a ton of money and taking down Russia, but if they are donating planes to Germany for fortress Europe they have susbtantially less attack power against Russia. I just don’t see how a divided air force is a threat to allied ship builds beyond round 2. They start with a big fat 1 tank, usually lose a plane in French Indo and if they donate planes, they have to buy more so it slows down their financial gains. This would only work against a passive Russia and an inefficient UK/US.

We don’t play economic victories but fair enough. Still, I don’t see how a Germany making only 38 ipcs is going to be able to do much of anything. How much will Japan have to make to get the EV? 60? We can get them up to high 40s-50 Ipcs but that takes time and in a game where Germany is being defensive, Japan is off fortune hunting, Russia is going to be a monster. In a fortress Europe scenario, I imagine it would be easy for Russia to make high 30’s, especially since they don’t have to worry about Axis air.

@GCar:

Because you are not building an AC in the med doesn’t mean you let allies land anywhere on turn 2. You are also having planes.

The main plan with Germany is not going “all out against Russia”, it is Fortress Europe. If Germany lets allies land in Africa/Norway without killing the allied fleet, well Germany doesn’t know what he is doing (or your Russia dices were really terrible and he decided that he could just go all in and blitz Russia).

Fortress Europe is the proven best plan for axis and is pretty much the only thing you see at high level in leagues. AC build is fun to try sometimes but is not nearly as competitive.

And before someone writes that Fortress Europe is not incompatible with building AC turn 1: Yes, it is :)

I hear fortress Europe all the time and have seen bits and pieces of this strategy posted. Doesn’t seem like a good idea to me. I could be wrong but is it just basically Germany turtling with a bunch of planes and Japense air help? How do they decimate the allied naval builds if they too weren’t buying navy? With planes? How many planes would they lose to do this? How long would this take to set up? You know what I’d do as allies if Germany lost planes and killed the UK and US boats? Buy more! Germany’s pieces are irreplaceable. US and to a lesser extent, the UK’s aren’t. How does Germany fight with no planes? How passive is Russia in these scenarios? How aggresive is Germany or Japan?

There’s no way to keep the allies out of the Atlantic or landing in Africa. Maximum delay is 3 rounds. Fortress sounds like a defensive strat and playing an axis focused on defense is the wrong way to play them.

Saying naval units take away from units that could be going after Russia is misleading. That’s why the extra trans build is a good idea. Russia always has to make sure Caucus is well defended, which means less units coming after Germany. It also increases the movement of units so you can get them to the front quicker. The trick is to not get trapped in the med. If Japan can get through, milk that as long as possible but if you can move your naval build through the channel while still having enough to defend Southern, then there’s money to be made in the pacific.

If Germany decides to go all out for Russia with land and air units, then nothing is stopping the allies from going all out for Germany.  They can shut down Germany round by round. Round 1- control Atlantic, destroy Baltic Navy, Round 2 land in Africa/Norway, Destory German Med navy, by round 3 all those land units you were planning on sending against Russia had to come back to defend France. You’re going to need at least ten units there - 30 ipcs and you aren’t making Africa money and Japan is not that fast.

Buy a couple fighters, save 10 ipc, build navy on round 2, have US send some capitol ships to seazone 8 to protect it, . In any scenario, you should be able to do this.