Posts made by Chris_Henry

I definitely get what you’re saying in theory for sure. And I think it’s worth trying!

I think my biggest point is not necessarily what Italy can or can’t do when at war or staying neutral, but instead what this allows the Allies to do. This will allow a lot of Allied resources to focus on Germany and/or Japan instead of in the Med/Italy. I just wonder if that’s ultimately a good thing.

You might be able to argue that, while Italy looses a longer war, largely for the reasons @Trig point out above, is Italy’s best use to tie up as many Allied IPP’s as possible to give Germany more time?

It’s funny you mention that! This was a topic mentioned a while back too:

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/29022/gw36-italian-strategy-somalian-pirate-crouching-benito?_=1622743163420

When I saw your post in our other thread I immediately thought of this thread also haha.

@insaneHoshi’s point was brought up specifically too, if I remember correctly. The longer you stay neutral, the weirder the threat is to the Allies!

I think a retort to this might be that if you are Italy and not declaring war, you’re economy is going to stay really small at 10 IPP a turn. Point being, there’s nothing to really stop the Allies from meeting this money in kind, and only devoting 10-12 IPP of their own to countering any Italian builds, and focusing their money in other theaters that are actually seeing action, while still maintaining a defensive force in the Med region in case Italy does spring into action.

I’ve never had this happen in a game, but I think that, while Italy could get their VC’s met easily, I wonder if the negative impact of more units and focus again Germany and Western/Northern Europe instead, won’t ultimately hurt the Axis more in the long run. Not sure though at all! But yeah, at the very least the threat of Italy declaring war would still be something to be monitored regardless!

@david-06 I guess I’m having a really hard time envisioning how the Axis are going to possibly be able to have the units available to do all this?

I get that defending is better. But think of this from an Allied perspective. If what you plan actually happens, and the USSR is getting steamrolled, in what world would the Allies just sit back and do nothing? They’d just lose and concede the game if they just sat there and did nothing! They’d be forced to attack, even if the odds were against them. Otherwise you might as well just pick up the board and start the game over, right?

I guess I just don’t see how France is defeated here either. There’s no way in my mind Italy can defeat them. Even if all of Italy’s starting game units were shipped to Northern Italy, France’s income levels will quickly outpace them, especially if Italy just stays neutral as you mention maybe doing! Hell, just with Germany’s invasion of Poland alone France could reach wartime income, not to mention the bonuses for the USSR being attacked, and Slovakia, Austria, Bohemia, and Chinese territories being invaded. It just won’t take long from France to outproduce Italy. Then you sprinkle in UK reinforcements there too!

We might just have fundamental differences on what we think the enemy would do here. I just don’t see a realm where in this scenario the Axis have anything near the defensive forces needed to just keep the Allies contained in France, while getting the kind of push into Russia that you’re envisioning and the forces that would also require!

I’ll really be curious to hear how this turns out for you!

@david-06 I guess when does this Italian assault happen on France? I don’t see any realm where Italy is successful against France. France out-produces Italy really soon.

Anything against France is happening after the assaults on the USSR have begun, right? I’d just be shocked to see Italy have any success!

I don’t think Germany could stay neutral either. Why wouldn’t the Allies attack them? I know I wouldn’t just sit still as the Allies in this scenario while the Axis attempted to steamroll the USSR.

I guess I’d have to see your money breakdown for what gets what to get the numbers you got. But I think when Allied wartime bonuses come into play I think it would get hard for the Axis!

@david-06 While I certainly agree on that, I also just don’t think letting one alliance build up unchecked won’t end well either!

My typical play/hope is to use my lightning war round effectively in the west to take at least all of France, though hopefully Norway, Denmark, Belgium, and the Netherlands as well.

In doing this, you wrap up mainland resistance right away, and the UK is almost assuredly in no position to make amphibious assaults against you immediately after, allowing you some time to build defenses, while focusing more manpower in the east.

Depending on how the game has gone to this point (i.e. where my troops have been placed, enemy troops are placed, peacetime income increase rolls, etc.) I will also either simultaneously attack the USSR, utilizing the Lighting War and Soviet Surprise Attack abilities, and hopefully getting to the two front line cities/factories quickly.

To me, doing this now neutralizes any big French buildup of units in France. The longer it takes to take them out, the harder and more costly it’ll be, and the more IPP’s you’ll have to sacrifice taking them out will hurt! But I think you have the larger IPP advantage at this point in having gained French IPP (and money in the bank), and now France was taken out efficiently, while also making any UK attempts much more costly with amphibious assaults instead of free movements to the mainland.

From there, it’s trying a defensive game in the west, while pushing the resources you need in the east!

@david-06 True there!

@david-06 Definitely! That’s one I really like to play with in my games. I don’t want to derail your thread, but that one is certainly one we like to use! Makes the CCP a lot more fun as well, especially when used with the Chinese Civil War expansion too!

@david-06 If it does work, a boring game for the Comintern will be afoot haha.

I know this is based on a base-game scenario, but this sounds like a fun chance to use the Partisans Expansion too! Would force the Axis to really have to defend their new territories from who knows how many Soviet partisans in the area haha.

This example certainly shows you why it’s so important to plan out the order of your attacks sometimes!

I personally like to use them for strategic bombing runs over carpet bombing.

I definitely get the urge to want to see real time results in casualties amassed from a carpet bombing attack. I like @Trig’s breakdown above too for averages. But I also like @insaneHoshi’s point on it being situational. I could definitely see giving it a try in a territory full of tanks and no infantry!

But for me I like to try and mix it up to keep my enemy stressed on multiple fronts. I try and look at it as my smaller planes are what are meant for unit casualties, go on and let the fortresses damage facilities as well for an entire morale affect of hitting him on the front lines and the production front.

I will also utilize mine a lot in conjunction with an operation I plan to enact. So if I want to knock out an airbase so they can’t scramble during an impending assault, or want to weaken nearby factories so they can’t quickly reinforce where my invasion is going to take place. I’ll try and take that into consideration as well.

But I think ultimately for me it comes down to the odds that were mentioned above. The odds of killing units is not extremely high, while the odds of damaging infrastructure are almost a given!

@david-06 I’ll definitely be curious on how it pans out! I know there was a thread a while back for the V2 game about this very possibility for Moscow to fall during the Lightning War attack, and it was largely debunked as not very likely to succeed. But all games are different, I think it will depend largely on how smartly your Comintern player defends against it, and how well the Allied player exploits it!

@trig Good point! Sorry, I’m playing all this through in my head, and I keep thinking about how if it were me France/Belgium/Netherlands would have already been attacked before Russia. So I was thinking of it in terms of that. But yeah, in @David-06 scenario that is not the case. So my mistake on that portion of it!

When I play the Axis I try and time the Japanese invasion of the DEI to coincide with the German invasion of Western Europe.

@david-06 No, not at all! I just felt like I walked in and started challenging your strategies. Just wanted to be sure you knew I wasn’t being pompous, rude, etc.!

Moscow is taken by which time? Don’t forget the USSR can move its factories, so I wouldn’t say Moscow falling is necessarily the end of its factory!

If you don’t attack until January 1940, it’ll take at least 3 turns (so July 1941) to take Moscow, right? That’s just 3 turns’ worth of the USSR being at max income to help blunt the attacks!

I also could be wrong about this part, it certainly is hard to envision without a board in front of me. But if I’m the USSR, and I’m seeing this play out, I’m not so sure I send the large amount of forces to the east that you’re thinking. There isn’t much IPP to be lost in the far east. I wonder if at that point I’m better off leaving minimal stalling forces, and continuing my main defenses in the west against the Germans. Trade space for time this way while losing minimal units and IPP against the Japanese. But everyone would certainly react differently!

I guess we haven’t established this, but when is your plan to attack France? After the USSR, right? I think we’ve been talking like that’s the case, but I guess I don’t know your full thoughts on that part!

By this time France and the UK will have entered the war. They both have probably entered by 1940 in fact, right? With the peace time increases for your attack on Poland, then the USSR, as well as two rearmament rolls. And even more increase potential if Italy has attacked someone at this point. If they have joined the war, that almost assuredly means the ANZAC will have reinforced the DEI, making amphibious attacks for the money islands harder. And lend lease will start to come to China via the Burma Road too!

For me, it’s such a difficult game to intend to ignore certain areas with grand plans in others. Like, I don’t know that an all-focus attack on the USSR without attacks on France at the same time or before is successful for the Axis overall. Same with waiting on taking the DEI until after Chinese and Russian attacks, as the Commonwealth will now have moved to reinforce the islands!

@david-06 Really all just food for thought from me!

Just an FYI I’m not trying to be rudely combative or anything like that. I think play devils advocate and/or just trying to point out possible obstacles to strategies can help flush out these things. I certainly don’t mean to say your ideas are “dumb” or flat out won’t work or anything like that, but merely offering other perspectives you maybe haven’t considered. Sorry, didn’t mean to soap box there, I just know it’s easy for inflection to get lost via typed speech. I’ve seen way too many fights/arguments on these forums over perceived slights via typing here! I just never mean to insult is all I’m saying.

So, in terms of “starting over” with the CCP, just remember they are a bit handicapped until they expel all foreign influences from Chinese Home Country (which includes Manchuria). Point being, I don’t think you could ever trust a CCP player to split China or anything like that, because neither Chinese faction is allowed to do things outside of China until all China is united/Japanese forces are expelled. Just something to consider there as well.

So, Japan invades China in '38 or '39. When does the USSR invasion take place? Don’t get me wrong, I agree you can have the forces available for some initial Chinese setbacks. I just wonder how much you have left over after and how quickly you can get it back to the northern borders in time for your USSR portion of the plan?

The longer you wait for a concerted assault on the USSR, the stronger they will be. Whether that’s via Sleeping Bear rolls, or other peacetime income increases. It seems to me if your plan is hitting China that hard first in '38 or '39, I wonder if you have the strength in place before like 1941? If you have to wait too long it just gets harder and harder is all!

@delaja Haha thanks! I find it helps to have constructive comments that actually add to a conversation! Plus there’s a way to do it respectfully. It’s lucky not hard to be nice about all these ideas people have, because there are sooooo many ways you can house rule your games or think of ideas. Nothing says everyone has to use everything!

@trig Thanks! Doesn’t seem like such a hard thing to put in rules now does it? hahaha

@david-06 I think the rule for rolling for each French naval unit comes into play here. If the transport goes Vichy, the infantry would as well. Same concept as if a colony turns Vichy that all French units in said colony also turn Vichy.

@david-06 So, you’re laying out a ton of of plans for China here which will take resources and units to accomplish. To me, it seems really ambitious to attempt to take out all of China while simultaneously getting the big build up against the USSR that you mention. Not to mention the resources for the money islands invasion!

It just sounds to me that once you played this out you wouldn’t have the resources to pressure the USSR that you’re thinking you might. Could certainly be wrong though!

So, I’d disagree with you on the CCP for sure though, taking the opposite point you make actually! If the “USSR is fricked”, why would I as the Comintern player go out of my way to help you in China when you’re in the middle of a massive effort against me in the USSR? Wouldn’t my CCP forces be better spent trying to weaken the Japanese in hopes of stalling out this USSR invasion? Maybe that’s just me. But if I were in that position I would be doing the opposite of trying to throw Japan a bone!

@delaja I definitely get what you’re trying to imply, but I just think it adds an extra layer that, to me, doesn’t seem worth it overall.

I get what you’re saying about marines and airborne units training at naval or air facilities, but think about the hundreds upon hundreds of real world air facilities and naval facilities that must have existed in real life that are not shown in this game. I think you can just make assumptions that the factories have the training grounds necessary to create/train troops. That’s my thought anyways!

I just think the game is already complex (the reason I enjoy it, don’t get me wrong), and adding some smaller things like this for me make an extra complexity that I’m just not sure adds an extreme amount to most games!

@insanehoshi Yeah, that’s my reading of it too. Doesn’t say what happens. I guess I should clarify, I like that you have the option to create Vichy or not, but part of that for me depends on what happens to French units then. For the same reasons you said above. I don’t want to see French naval suicide missions just to get use out of them!

@Trig So, I get what you’re saying generally, but remember that any other nation that surrenders is wiped off the board entirely. So this wouldn’t be something we want here.

14.4.1 is probably the most concrete piece that says Free France is still formed. But it still doesn’t answer what specifically happens to create Free France. It says they atke possession of all Free French territory, but we’re not told if that’s just every French territory in their non-Home Country possession, or what. And we don’t have a determination on rolling for navies either.

So you think you wouldn’t roll for navies at all? Just everything stays on the board and is Free French?

• There is no mention of what happens to units in France if Vichy is not formed. Do they go Free French, get removed, stay as neutrals?

I think this would be determined by 14.4.1 that you quoted above. It says they take command of all French Units not in French Home Country. That to me means anything remaining in France itself is removed from the game, same as if Vichy were being formed.

• In the Vichy rolls it seems to mention that all French colonies are rolled, regardless of their current status. For instance, that would seem to mean that if Italy takes Tunisia, then it would also get rolled for. (14.4.2.“French Colonies”)

While an interesting point, I can’t imagine something already possessed by another Axis member would be subject to this rule? That would suck to just take that away from Italy. But I obviously could be wrong.

• What happens if Italy takes Paris. Or the USSR? I know they get the money, but is Vichy formed? Also, the captured ship, do they go to them or Germany? Also, if the surrender happens on Italy’s turn, say b/c they took Southern France to encircle Paris, can Vichy form? I think not, but it is vague. (14.4.2.“Vichy creation”)

I think you’d still have the option to create Vichy. The Vichy Reference Sheet says “Immediately after French surrender, the German player may opt to create a new neutral Minor Power called Vichy France”. This doesn’t specify that a specific nation has to make France surrender, only that Germany can decide this once France surrenders. While very true this would be odd in the event of a USSR takeover, the chances of that are probably slim. I think they made assumptions in the rules of Germany/the Axis taking out France. I personally do not like that the rules make tons of assumptions throughout, a rule should be concrete and binding. But that would be my guess, that this situation wasn’t really considered.

• Also, according to 9.22, if a major power surrenders, its aligned or controlled minor’s are given to an ally. Does this occur with Abyssinia, or other french minor? 14.4.2.“French controlled & Aligned minor powers” says they go to Free France. What takes precedence?

While I totally get your point, I think this is another one that was maybe overlooked as assuming Abyssinia will have fallen to Italy by any point Free France is created. Not saying I like the oversight, but I think that’s what it is. I’d have to imagine you’d roll for anything that was aligned by that point to see if they become Vichy or Free French.

• Also, what of the troops from aligned minors? Are they automatically Free like their land, or are they rolleed for? That could cause some interesting results, and would need a lot of tracking. (14.4.2.“French Controlled & Aligned Minor Powers”)

Same as the above I’d think. I think the Vichy creation rules stay in play here. If you roll Abyssinia as being Free French, it and all French units on it become Free French. Same as any originally controlled French colonies like Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, etc. Again, just my take, because you’re right that this isn’t addressed.

• Allied units in France if Paris is taken. What happens? The rules say they “move out of France” but how does that happen? Do they just move out in later turns, or are teleported out?

The “Other Forces” portion of the Vichy Reference sheet says: If Allied forces are in any other part of France when the French surrender, they are allowed to move out of France. If they cannot they are eliminated. However, if Paris is encircled with Allied units in it, those units immediately surrender with Paris and are removed from the game".

So to me that means that Allied units have one chance to make a normal free movement phase out of French territory, and if they cannot, they’re dead. So you’d need a transport on the coast, or be able to use the narrow crossing, or if Spain, Belgium, or Switzerland were somehow Allied aligned at this point.

Similarly, what if Axis units are in a Vichy zone, but there is no adjacent axis territory for them to move to? (14.4.2.“Other Forces”)

Unless I’m not understanding your question, I don’t think this is possible. If Vichy is being formed, the rest of France is under Axis control. So they can simply move to Paris, Bordeaux, Lorraine, or Northern Italy even.

• Also, it says the place the Vichy army in “Vichy France.” Is that Southern France, or any Vichy land zone, or what? (14.4.2.“Vichy Army”)

That’s Southern France. The Vichy Reference Sheet is more clear in “Vichy Army”: “Place 3 Infantry, 1 Fighter, and 1 Artillery in Southern France”.

• What happens if France is conquered again? For instance, Paris is liberated and Germany takes it back. Does this all happen again? (Looting, Vichy, etc) Also, what if an airborne takes Paris but it is surrounded by the Axis? Are the conditions reversed and France formed? Paris is liberated, but it is still surrounded. (14.4.1)

I 99.99% sure this does not happen again. I can’t remember if this is in the rules somewhere, or if it’s just been asked before, but I do remember a definitive answer that this is a one time thing. But I’m just simply old me, so maybe you can’t take my word for it haha.

• Does France surrender if the USSR hold Normandy and the Germans Picardy, Lorraine, Southern France and Aquitaine? (Assuming France is not at war with the USSR.)

Great question, and another I would say was overlooked as a possibility. My gut would say no. But realize that the Allies can declare war on the Comintern if they have an originally controlled Allied Territory. That doesn’t mean the Allies will for sure declare war, but just something to keep in mind.

• And finally, as a design note, why do the rolls put Niger and Dahomey with French Equatorial Africa, and not French West Africa that they were a part of? Similarly, the Pacific colonies were governed separately. Please give me a reason not to go the historical route.

While I get what you’re saying, I think we can’t do the historical route for parts if we don’t do it for all. If going historical, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Corsica, Southern France, Syria, and Madagascar should all automatically become Vichy, and every other French African colony should become Free, while Indochina goes to Japan, as with the islands. I think they lumped these groups together for playability. This way you don’t roll for 6 territories in one lumped African group, and only 3 in another. This way those two groups are split 5/5 down the middle. Somewhat the same with the Pacific islands. I think for the sake of speeding this process along they are just man to be Japanese for sphere of influence purposes.

@Didier_de_Dax That would be really the biggest reason I ask this question! If the classic surrender rules apply, where everything is just removed from the board, that leaves a ton of French suicide attacks in the offing, specifically with their naval forces that otherwise wouldn’t have happened!

My gut tells me that if you don’t create Vichy, then all French colonies and units not in Home Country all just become Free French at that point, with no rolling for naval units or anything. It just wasn’t addressed in the rules completely. I had missed the part in 14.4.1 that @Trig called out as implying Free France is created regardless of Vichy creation. But the rules should have spelled out a more obvious function of that than they do, namely what I say in the first sentence of this paragraph.

• In page 61, rule 14.4.2 : “All french Aligned Minor Powers (e.g. Abyssinia) become Align to Free French”. The errata recently remove the word “controlled” (page 3).
  The problem is that: if Abyssinia isn’t annex by Italy and the war between them continue until the surrendering of France. Abyssinia is ONLY CONTROLLED by France, as long as Italy doesn’t declare war on France before the fall of this last country.
  So it means that: Abyssinia isn’t considered Align with France and Abyssinia isn’t aligned with Free France. Then Abyssinia only remains controlled by Free France?

A very good point. I was going to say they would be Aligned since Germany would have taken out France, but they have to be at war with the same Major, so you’re right in that they would only be controlled. I think it would stay that way, and Abyssinia would just be a controlled minor power by Free France. But I could be wrong! Again, I have a feeling the rules were written regarding Abyssinia here as if Italy will have already taken them out.

• In the USA reference sheet (page 2) on the peacetime income increases: “Japan declares war on British Commonwealth or France: +5D12” and “Japan declares war on any other neutral: +2D12”.
  If Vichy France is created and Free France gets the French Indochina Provinces (Annam-Tonkin and Cochinchina), when Japan attacks, the USA gets 5D12 or 2D12? Because it’s not France but a neutral minor.

Another interesting query. My gut says 2D12 here. Unless specified in the rules, I think we have to assume that minor power mentions would include Free France moving forward. Just something else to consider when playing I suppose!