Topics created by Cernel

@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

@Cernel Cases 1 and 2 are legal in versions up to and including Revised OOB, but not legal in Revised LHTR or later. Cases 3 through 5 are not legal in any version.

Even though you stated
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

@Cernel Forget what I said here to the contrary, and go with the prior rulings. I have edited my above answers in accordance with this.

I’ve seen that you have not yet edited this post.

Does this mean that, in this case, you stand by this latest clarification of yours (which should be taken as prevalent)?

No. I did not edit the post because I amended this answer in a later post in this thread (which was made before I edited the posts).

So, summarizing, it seems that, to my first two cases at the first post of this topic, specifically
@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

A transport has one or two units already on board at the start of the turn, does not load any more units, moves into a hostile sea zone during the same turn and does not offload any units during Combat Move, partakes to a successful sea battle without being removed and offloads any number of its cargo into an own or allied territory during the subsequent Non-Combat Move phase.

A transport has one or two units already on board at the start of the turn, starts the turn inside a hostile sea zone and neither moves nor loads any units nor offloads any units during Combat Move, partakes to a successful sea battle without being removed and offloads any number of its cargo into an own or allied territory during the subsequent Non-Combat Move phase.

we have two possible official answers (both from you).

In this topic, you said that
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

@Cernel Cases 1 and 2 are legal in versions up to and including Revised OOB, but not legal in Revised LHTR or later.

whereas, based on what you said previously and I quoted at this post, I understand that your answer based on those answers would be something like

Cases 1 and 2 are legal in Revised OOB and the original Europe and Pacific, but not legal in the Classic games nor in Revised LHTR or later.

Which one is the correct ruling?

The second one, as I stated in my amended post above.

If you will, please don’t just tell me to go with whatever you said previously: if you are going with the previous rulings, I’d like to know on what they are based.

Would it be because of the concept that cargo inside a transport which took part in a battle is considered having taken part in the battle too (and therefore cannot do anything during the subsequent Noncombat Move phase) coupled with the fact that every Classic rules-book is missing a special rule like the one in Revised OOB stating that

Transports that have been in combat may either load or offload (not both) during this phase, but not if they have retreated from combat this turn.

If this is not the reason, what is the reason?

Yes, that’s the reason.

I understand that, as an official answerer, you can just limit yourself to say what’s what, but I would like to know the reasons behind the rulings at least for those which (apparently) changed over time or got answers at variance with each other if that is not too much to ask.

I think this was all covered adequately in the “Offloading in Both Combat and Noncombat Movement” thread that you linked. There’s no reason to go over it again.

As a side note, I apologize for not consulting that thread before I answered here initially. I was going from memory, which is always a bad thing to do when dealing with Revised OOB, for reasons discussed in that thread.

Trying to make a summary of a number of my topics, I believe that we can divide the matter into three main cases, namely “1”, “2” and “3”, the latter being actually “1+2”.

A transport with 2 units already on board at start turn offloads 1 unit during Combat Move (does not take part in any battles) and offloads the other unit during Noncombat Move (both units being offloaded into the same territory, which was enemy owned during Combat Move and is friendly during Noncombat Move).

A transport with 1 or 2 units already on board at start turn takes part in a battle (and does not offload any units during Conduct Combat) and offloads all or part of the units during Noncombat move (into a friendly territory).

A transport with 2 units already on board at start tun takes part in a battle and offloads 1 unit during Conduct Combat and offloads the other unit during Noncombat Move (both units being offloaded into the same territory, which was enemy owned during Conduct Combat and is friendly during Noncombat Move).

First of all, have we conclusively clarified that (for every rules-set) whether or not a transport moved before amphibiously offloading or taking part in a battle on the same turn is absolutely irrelevant for whatever it can do during Noncombat Move? Meaning that it would be completely pointless to split the aforementioned three cases into two cases each (for a total of six cases), stating whether the transport moved or not before offloading in Combat Move or taking part in combat. Correct?

Yes.

Secondarily, are we splitting all actual (WW2 and strategic) Axis & Allies games from Classic 1st Edition to the most recent ones into two main groups each of which has either all the above three cases (“1”, “2” and “1+2”) legal or illegal, or are there any such games which have only some of the above three cases legal and the rest illegal?

This grouping is correct.

Either way, I’d like to have the full list of them (Again, it does not need to be an actual list: something like “this full sequence of actions is illegal in every game since Revised LHTR but was legal in Revised OOB and every game beforehand” would be just as good.).

To be clear, I see two cases here.

If I take what you said at the post to which I’m replying now as prevailing over whatever you said in the past and I quoted at this post, what I understand is that,

for the Classic games, 1 and 1+2 are illegal but 2 is legal. for Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB, 1, 2 and 1+2 are all legal. for Revised LHTR and later games, 1, 2 and 1+2 are all illegal.

If I take what you said in the past and I quoted at this post as prevailing over whatever you said at the post to which I’m replying now, what I understand is that,

for the Classic games, Revised LHTR and later games, 1, 2 and 1+2 are all illegal. for Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB, 1, 2 and 1+2 are all legal.

(However, I’m quite unsure about (the original) Europe and Pacific.)

So take your time and let me/us know if you will. I understand that it’s a lot of rules-sets to be sure. Thank you.

For Classic and Revised LHTR and later, all are illegal.
For Europe, Pacific, and LHTR OOB, all are legal.

Well on the board you generaly move stuff 1 at the time.
So the wording is a bit weird but what they try to say is that you only have to move the carrier if not moving it would cause planes to have no landing zone.

So its not earlier as in an earliers phase but earlier as in earlier in the NCB phase.

The game is already weird in that imo all movement should be simultanious. You cant start moving later and still expect to arive at the same time.
If you first await a combat resolution and then move your going to be later then if you are moving immediately.

@cernel

So sad. :(

@cernel That’s quite a loophole you’ve discovered. It’s things like this that made LHTR necessary. You are correct about point 1. Regarding point 2, I see nothing in the rules that would disallow attacking an unoccupied enemy-controlled territory with only air units.

They cannot be taken as casualties under any circumstances other than being cargo on lost transports.

@thrasher1 said in Overpurchasing and undermobilizing:

Reminds me of me… coming up with the shortest possible Axis and Allies Classic game :)

Absolute shortest A&A Classic game is as follows. USSR, German, and UK players would have to agree to do this. Japan and US players won’t have a say in the matter.

Before play starts: Agree that game is over after one capital falls.

USSR, Turn 1: Kill German fleet in the Baltic. Use fleet and fighters to ensure the German fleet is killed. Pass rest of turn.

German, Turn 1: Evacuate Germany. Pass rest of turn.

UK, Turn 1: Load transport off of UK. Invade Germany. Game over.

As for shortest game with taking two capitals of the same power: Use the above as a start, will probably need two turns for the US to invade Japan…

As for shortest game without cooperation? Depends on the dice…

-Midnight_Reaper

Correct.

Transports are no different than other units in this game as regards casualties. They don’t need to be taken last, and they are not automatically destroyed when alone. If you choose to sacrifice your warships to protect your transports, they can retreat if they survive.

Correct.

A&A II (Classic) A&A Revised A&A Anniversary TripleA my ideas Develop Weapons Develop Weapons Research & Development Research Technology Research Technology Purchase Units Purchase Units Purchase Units Purchase Units Procure Units Combat Movement Combat Move Combat Move Combat Move Commit Units Combat Conduct Combat Conduct Combat Combat Conduct Combat Non-Combat Movement Noncombat Move Noncombat Move Noncombat Move Reposition Units Place New Units On Gameboard Mobilize New Units Mobilize New Units Place Units Form Units Collect Income Collect Income Collect Income Turn Complete Collect Resources

I have some doubts about the way phases are called around. If you say “Purchase Units”, I think you should, then, say “Combat Move Units”, not just “Combat Move”, or, vice versa, say just “Purchase”, instead. The “New” in “Mobilize New Units” feels redundant, as it sounds like you can also mobilize units that are not new, instead, in some other phase. “Collect Income” feels a bit redundant too, as “Income” already implies it is what you are getting (and it is not income anymore once you have collected it, saving it or spending it). I tried searching “collect income” on Google and got a mere 408,000 results, of which some are cases like “In the Nordic countries it is common practise to collect income data from various administrative registers”. On the other hand, unsurprisingly, I get 3,530,000 results with “collect money”, 1,490,000 with “collect funds” and 1,240,000 with “collect resources”. Also, I never liked the term “Purchase”, as creating armies is really not all about purchasing, unless maybe you are dealing with a scenario in which virtually everything is mercenary.

Mind you, I don’t believe there can be perfect terms, in the moment a same action can refer to an infantry, a battleship or an industrial complex unit. Just wondering if there could have been better names for the phases, especially referring to the way TripleA normally calls them.

Also, English is not my first language; so I’m not so sure if my suggestions are good. About this, is the “Turn Complete” definition of TripleA correct, or should it be either “Turn Completed” or “Complete Turn”?

I’ll point out that phases can be called either referring to the game as a game (you are placing pieces of plastic on a board (virtually so, if third edition or TripleA)) or to the game as what it is tentatively representing (you are mobilizing armies around the world). The most obvious example of a change of perspective on this matter is going from the “Place New Units On Gameboard” of the second edition to the “Mobilize New Units” of the Revised and following; maybe a sign of the game taking itself more seriously.

How would you call the phases or what version do you think has the better naming?

@Cernel It can be found here.

the only problem is getting players to do they’re turns in a timely fashion.

@Krieghund Thank you. Very interesting how a technological breakthrough affects other core game rules here.