Posts made by cdassak

I playtested the WEur IC against KGF last weekend. I don’t think it’s that powerful. Here’s how it went:

G1
Buy BALTIC ac and IC, MED fleet moves west.

UK1
Buy 3ftrs or 2 ftrs and 1 trn. Fleet stays in sz2. Egypt counter depends on German survivors. Kill Jap trn with des. The UK Indian ftr can land in Africa, in position to strike sz7 on UK2.

US1
Buy ac, ftr, 2 subs. Starting Atlantic fleet goes to sz9.

R2.
Russia smells blood after G1 so they switch to aggressive mode against Germany. They’ll have to do the ground fighting for a few turns. Ftr(s) land in London (if needed & applicable). Sub blocks German fleet in sz12 – if the Russian ftrs can reach London the sub can be spared.

G2
London has 2inf, 2arm, 1rtl, 5-8 ftrs (4-5 UK, 1 US, 0-2 USSR) 1-2 bmrs (the UK could be missing). It can’t be taken.
The fleet is merged. It has 1ac, 2 ftrs, 1bb, 1dd, 2trns, 3subs = DPunch 26 Count 11. UK can hit it with 4-5 ftrs (Indian ftr not included, so it may be 5-6) 1bmr 1bb 2-3 trns = Opunch 20 – 23 (23-26) Count 10 (11). US can follow with 4ftrs 1bmr 1dd 2trns = Opunch 19 Count 8. Normally the fleet will not last against the double attack.
I don’t know whether Germany should choose not to reinforce it but I bought more navy in sz7, specifically a second ac – better than 2 subs – increasing Dpunch to 37 and Count to 14. That’s 47$ spent in the Atlantic.

Germany could avoid the double attack by blocking sz8 with a sub. This means that they’ll lose the sub but they can avoid buying navy in G2. I only did one game so I couldn’t explore all possible paths.

UK2
Buy fleet (3-4 trns). Move fleet in sz8. You can buy the UK carrier instead to play safe. Germany won’t attack a double carrier fleet.

US2
Buy 2bmrs, 1ftr. Move fleet in sz8. Land units stay in Canada to discourage Japan. The Allied fleets consist of 1ac, 2ftrs, 2dd, (USA) 1bb (UK), 2-3 subs (2 US, 0-1 USSR), 7-9 trns (2 US, 5-7 UK) = Dpunch 32 - 36 Count 16-19. If UK bought the carrier the Dpunch is increased by 9.

R3
Press Germany.

G3
The Allied fleet can be attacked with fleet and Luftwaffe adding up to a total of 2ac, 5-6 ftrs, 1bmr, 1bb, 1dd, 2trns, 3subs = Opunch 34 – 37 Count 16-17. It’s only worth against a single carrier fleet.
Assume you don’t do it. Should you buy even more navy?
USA can attack sz7 on US3 with 1ac, 2dd, 2subs, 2trns, 3bmrs, 5ftrs. = Opunch 38 Count 15. You have D 37 C 14. It’s a close one but the US will attack anyway and withdraw if they have to. Also, on US4 the attack against sz7 will have an increase of Opunch 14 and Count 6 (for a total of 52 and 21 respectively). That’s because the Pacific bb and trn and the US3 buys (2ftrs 1bmr) are added.

If you want your fleet to survive, you need more navy or you must withdraw to the Baltic or Med. In any case I think that the Allies are ahead and will win the game.

Ncscswitch, your strategy proposal is very innovative. I gave it some thought and discussed about possible Allied counters with a friend. We did not have a board to try anything out, so we kept it theoretical.
We both thought KJF, instinctively.
We also thought SA complex to secure African $ if you decide not to challenge the German fleet with UK.
The KGF path is very interesting, too. We will get to it ASAP.
I suggest that you start a topic about the WEur factory.

@ncscswitch:

LOL!

Fleet link in SZ7 on G2.  Full scale interdiction of Allied shipping.

You drop the IC in Western on G1 and stage your fleets to link.  G2 you link the fleets, and reinforce with new naval units placed at the Western IC.

Germany plays the same game as Japan in a KJF, only off France instead of off Japan.  And they rely on bulk INF and existing ARM to keep the Soviets in check.

Do you buy the Baltic carrier too?

Good one ncscswitch. I like the way you handle Japan. The key for a KJF defense is to be confident.

However, how would you respond to the same + the UK bomber in Novo or Sinkiang?

I know Jen used it for SBR but let’s assume she hadn’t…

Would you do the same battles and buy that destroyer on J1?

Jen,

I use both ftrs to be as certain as possible. If you are gonna do the Norway attack you must use maximum force. It would be a pitty to go to all this trouble with Russia and not kill the ftr = loose the UK fleet in sz2

So if Russia takes Norway even the bmr can’t attack.
The battle is 3inf 2ftr 1arm vs 3inf 1ftr so the Russian can drop the Moscow ftr before killing the tank. It will die in Karelia on G1 anyway.
Even if Norway doesn’t change hands (but you do kill the German ftr) the UK bb will probably survive.

Now the dilemma is attack Norway, sacrifising 1ftr and 1arm, and abandon any ‘usual’ Russian opening to save the UK fleet or do nothing and let it die…

Some thoughts and numbers on the naval KJF game.

As Japan you have to buy the 3rd carrier only after a US ‘offensive’ fleet moves within striking distance of your fleet (most probably in the Alaskan sz).
Your basic fleet of 2bb 2ac 4ftr 1dd 4trn has Dpunch 37 Count 15. The third carrier group will bring that to Dpunch 48 (8 hits in the first round of combat) Count 18. Pretty decent defense for the US to overcome. Normally a US attack against your fleet can’t happen before US5 so you’ll have 4 rounds (J2 to J5) to unload (a max of 32) land units in Asia.

If the US will go hopping they’ll build a defensive fleet and you’ll have to attack it to kill the transports. Probably you’ll have to attack after they go to the Solomons.
Again your basic attacking force is 2bb 6ftr 1dd 1bmr 4trn (2ac) has Opunch 35 (almost 6 hits) Count 18. Also, it can sustain 6 hits without loosing Opunch meaning it will probably hit another 5-6 times in the second round of combat killing a 10-12 boat/ftr fleet in 2 rounds.
Also, against island hopping you should probably build the airforce up to 8 ftrs because each carrier can bring 4 ftrs to battle.
Finally I think that you have the option of not attacking the US fleet in the Solomons but after it conquers one of it’s target islands.

I know that some things such as an Indian factory, the UK fleet, a Russian stack in Bury, the UK bmr threatening Japanese sea zones, UK ftr reinforcing PH and a Sinkiang factory (although it weakens US naval builds) can give Japan additional problems but the Japanese player should have the basic numbers in mind when organizing his naval defense against KJF.

I don’t know whether the German will try it anyway - probably he will and see how the first round of combat goes.

The Norway attack messes Russian plans but would you risk loosing almost all UK Atlantic navy on G1? I need to playtest this more.

Shadow & Jen,

Do you always stack 6inf in Bury on R1, regardless of KJF or KGF?

The battle is 2subs 1bmr vs 1bb 1trn 1sub (Russian), isn’t it?

What dice simulator are you using?

I have been toying with using the bid to place a sub in sz8, too.

Sinking the UK fleet in sz2 can give a nice head start in the Atlantic for Germany.

I can think of only one way of preventing this from happening. Attacking Norway on R1 (3inf 1arm 2ftr) to kill the German ftr.

@ncscswitch:

1.  UK builds and AC, TRN and 2 INF.  Moves fleet to SZ6, palces new naval units in SZ6, lands existing FIGs on SZ6 AC.
        (Total UK fleet:  1 BB, 1 AC, 2 FIG, 2 TRN)
2.  USA sends 1 FIG, 1 BOM, 2 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM from EUS to UK (via TRN offloading from SZ8)
3.  Russia sends their sub to join the UK fleet in SZ6 (or to SZ7, depending on where the Med Fleet is, but most likely to SZ6)

I guess the UK TRN off Canada is prseumed dead, otherwise it would be 1bb 1ac 2ftr 3trn.

If the sz6 block is used Germany will probably forget London and sink the UK/Russian fleet + the 3 US ships in sz8. If they do their math they can end up with all their airforce and few boats intact.

@ShadowHAwk:

Germany is planning for a KGF strat and is building defenses and not doing well VS russia.

Germany could predict the Allied plan from certain R1 actions (Buyratia stack, Russian ftr positioning, arm in Yakut, R1 attacks and buys, inf towards India). I don’t know what is the optimal R1 for a KJF but I think that the Allies would expect or even depend on some early Russian contribution to a KJF opening.
Even so, I think the German buy is always inf (absolutely necessary against KGF and for going for Russia if KJF) and most probably some navy which is good against both KGF and KJF.
About not doing well vs Russia, I think there’s too little time to tell (only R1 and G1) this is happening. Even then, isn’t it the best time to launch KGF?

@ShadowHAwk:

Island hopping is the best strat to start with the US. You dont need a huge fleet to do it just a huge defence ( jet power :D )
And if you manage to keep the UK carrier alive combining it with the US fleet every turn gives a nice defence power there.
Also the islands are weakly defended and hard to reclaim and bring in a lot of IPC’s.
Less japan IPC’s is slower progress on the mainland and with the low initial cost you can combine it with a KGF strat.

I have only playtested one island hopping strategy that I found on the net which included a UK1 Aus complex + preserving all UK boats, and a UK2 BB and ftr buy in Aus. Those 49$ proved too much and Germany took Russia.

When island hopping do you go to the Solomons on US2? Do you build an Indian factory? How many ACs do you buy for the US? I’ve seen somewhere that you buy a DD and 2 loaded TRNs every turn for the US (after US1 or 2, can’t remember), is this valid?

Also, I don’t really understand combining KGF and KJF for me it’s always the one or the other.

I’d never think of going KJF in a game where I would play for winning (and not for fun or ‘learning’ the game) and there is no time limit. I find KGF easier to orchestrate, straightforward and a safer path to Allied victory. However KJF really interests me and I’ve spend some time researching and trying to master it.

These are some of my thoughts on KJF. Some are very basic.

1. In order to execute a KJF plan the Allies must take Japan out with the US through the Pacific. They can’t take them out from mainland Asia only even if UK and US build their Sinkiang and India ICs. The double ICs are good for slowing Japan down in a KGF game, though.

2. So the US MUST go fully naval on the Pacific and abandon the Atlantic. There might be a configuration where the US somehow establishes an African shuck with their starting Atlantic fleet.

3. The US can try to sink the Jap navy. In order to do that they need to build an offensive fleet and will probably come from the Alaskan sea zone. They may need to build an Alaskan IC.

4. They can go island hopping (building a defensive fleet), diminishing Japan’s economy and eventually building a complex in one of the high IPC islands. For me the weakness of island hopping is that Japan can go for a ‘strafing your fleet(s) of your TRNs’ strategy as a counter.

5. The UK’s primary concern is to help Russia against Germany. However they must also contribute to a KJF. They have many options: Build an Indian IC (put pressure on the Asian mainland). Try to preserve the Pacific fleet. Build an Australian IC to reinforce it and expand the Allied naval game (either combining with the US or working separately). Park the fleet off the African coast and build a complex in SAfrica (and threaten Jap territories). Move the UK bmr in position to threaten Japan’s sea zones. Kill the Jap sub and reinforce US Hawaiian fleet with the ftr. Kill the Kwantung transport. The more they spend against Japan the better for Germany.

6. Against KJF it’s highly advantageous for Japan to build 3 TRNs on J1 in order to strengthen their navy.

7. My main concern with KJF is that I can never think of a round 1 situation where it would seem preferable to a KGF. Agreed, Japan not attacking PH could lure you to a KJF but that occurs on J1. What about G1?
If the German buys 2-3 TRNs can you be comfortable with KJF? If he spends nothing on ships isn’t it the best time for KGF (no opposition in the Atlantic – the Baltic open)? Only if he buys the AC I would consider KJF but even then I think KGF is safer.

@trihero:

There is one counter that I like as the US against a 2 tran buy. The US starts off with 2 fighter 1 car as their purchase, and moves their existing navy to SZ1. On US2, they can attack the linked fleet with 5 fighter 1 bomber 1 dest 2 tran, which has a high chance of wiping everything out there. Still, the US is set back. It has likely lost 2 of its existing transports, and has built none to compensate for it. According to my experience in a few games against myself, the results still tend towards an Allied victory, but I couldn’t tell you for sure as my style keeps changing a bit and you can never tell with some fluky dice here and there.

I use a similar counter - buying the same for US but also buying 3 ftrs on UK1. This way UK can hit the merged German fleets in sz 7 on UK2 with 5ftrs 1bmr 1BB and 2 TRN and US can follow with the forces you mention on US2. Depending on how the UK attack goes the Allies can save either the UK or US transports and the German fleet death is certain. Also with the 3 ftr UK buy the German Baltic fleet is under threat for UK2 and MUST either come out and merge with the Med fleet or buy more vessels in the Baltic

You can’t collect income untill you (or an ally) liberate your capital

You could buy units as usual in Moscow but you won’t have any money. The german takes all your money when taking your capital

@trihero:

I have a bit of a different view here. To me, Germany should just buy infantry nonstop after any initial naval purchase. Germany is playing a defensive game hands down. Remember that it starts with 6 fighters, 1 bomber, and 9 tanks on the mainland. It could be very well 5 fighters, 1 bomber, and 7 tanks on the mainland after the Russian attack, but that is plenty of offensive units to trade territories or crush an early landing in W. Europe easily. You just can’t have enough defense as Germany, because you have to hold out until Russia bites it. I do see where the 1 or 2 leftoever IPCs can be converted into art/tanks, and it is useful, but I’d rather just save every last bit and funnel it into the most efficient defense available, while using the existing network to do the heavy work.

I agree with Trihero on this. I think that Germany starts with a fair ammount of offensive units - I stick to infantry buys, occasionaly upgrading 1 INF to ART or ARM with spare IPCs. Lately I tried INF and FTR (1 per turn) buys (bringing the Luftwaffe up to 8-12 FTRs). I also like to bring the Jap airfore (if applicable) to Europe ASAP.

If the Baltic fleet can unite with the Med fleet on G2 I buy 3FTR

If not 2 TRN 3 INF 1ARM

I dislike Germany, too. For me it’s always hard to make Ger effetive offensively (against an Allied triple team) and even though playing (Turtle) defense with them is fairly standard I always get the feeling that I should have done more to help Japan.