I don’t think anyone is saying “just build all subs” I think people are saying “build a sub or two a turn, you never know when they can get in a good kill and if not, hey fodder and attack on a 2 isnt bad for 6 IPC”.
So i think everyone agrees that, just building subs=dumb, subs as part of a fleet=probably good idea. Or i could have misread everything as its 3 AM.
Honestly IL I’ve had people use your tank strat against me and Russia can survive just fine, its the Italian can opener that really scares me with russia, so many things to worry about.
On UK1 i like buying 1 carrier and 2 bombers, rallying fleet in SZ 8 if it will be safe from enemy air. This means IF you stay in SZ 14 you will lose your fleet. Also, if you land 2 fighters in Algeria with no cover I will drop 2 units with my trans, hit you with the Egypt fighter plus the UK bomber to destroy them.
On UK2 I will usually move the carrier to SZ 12 to cover US landings, then go from there. I may build more planes, if the Egypt fighter is still alive I may drop another carrier, more ships, who knows, but with the carrier in SZ 12 plus the UK bombers that Italian fleet will most likely die on turn 3 or 4, and 2 fighters 3 bombers are much better odds anyway.
I guess my point is it doesn’t matter what the Axis do, if the Allies want the med and Africa they will have it. BUT every round Italy distracts the Allies, is a round Germany gets to pound on Russia.
Also, if playing with NOs, I feel the best Italian buy is 1 fig on turn one, followed by a turn 2 AC witch makes there fleet much harder to kill.
Not sure how this would work or if it would be worth it but here is the premise.
This assumes UK lost all navy aside from the DD+transport. UK purchases 1 destroyer, 3 transports, 3 inf, 1 arm. Placing it where Germany air cannot sink it.
On US one they place 3 of there fighters in Eastern Canada, purchase a carrier, another fighter, placing there 4th starting fighter on the new carrier. Also, purchases a few transports + units to shuttle.
On UK2 they purchase a carrier and other fleet elements to protect the transports, and units to drop next turn. All units land in France. Italy cannot retake it on there turn. On US2 they can land 5 fighters in France, plus 2 more units and prepare for the next turn drop.
This gives you at the end of turn 2 10 potential units plus 5 fighters on France, making it borderline impossible for Germany to retake if there going all out against Russia (i believe). Then you can just continue to shuttle over troops until you can take a capital. Japan would get beast but Russia should have some fight left in her to help out. This would work even better if a large amount of UK fleet elements survived turn one. Even if you decide to abort (if Germany keeps units back) you can hit Africa with the US fleet and pursue a general KGF. If you afraid of Italy destroying to many units with a counter attack you could even do this on northwestern Europe.
Good idea or terrible? Cant play till this weekend when I plan on trying it out.
I like the 5 inf/3 tank buy, or I really like the 6 inf, 4 art buy. What I usually do is pile everything on turn 1 into belorussia and Caucasus, ending turn 1 (if karelia wasn’t hit) with 10+ inf in both of those areas, leaving 1 inf in karelia. Never though of the 6 tank buy though, if you do that you could still stack belorussia and caucasus and force germany to move her tanks off of east poland. I’ll have to try that next game. I don’t like buying air as there isn’t enough time to create dead zones and trade areas with this game.
For UK my favored buy is on turn one 1 carrier, 2 transports (assuming you only have one left), then either a south africa IC, or another fighter. On UK2 you can drop 6 troops and more navy to protect it, i like hitting Northwest Europe and Norway. On UK3 i really like moving into SZ 5 and retaking Karelia plus Poland just to annoy Germany.
If thought of that way wouldn’t it make more sense to change bombards to function similar to artillery? Just allow 1 BB to support 2 inf, cruisers 1?
Actually the only fighter that cannot hit the destroyer/cruiser is the one in Poland, the others just have to land in Algeria.
Germany: Gain 5 IPC if no allies naval units are in SZ 5 and axis control of Norway and Finland
-this gives a reason to build a fleet without outright forcing it, and gives the allies another way of slowing down the Germans, perhaps even the Russians.
Italy: Gain 10 IPC if axis control Union of South Africa
-very difficult to get, but huge cash bonus, perhaps only 5 IPC? i’m not really sure what Italy was doing in the war other than getting beat up.
Japan: Gain 5 IPC if axis control Yakut(?!)
-not sure where the oil fields were, but there was a group in japan that wanted to attack Russia, it is already very difficult to go the northern route and hit Russia, and this gives them more options/choices in the early game.
US: Gain 5 IPC if allies SBR Japan this round
-was a huge boost in allied moral, not sure if this should be in or not as it breaks the mold of ‘hold a territory’.
ALT US: Gain 5 IPC if allies control Caroline islands
-was a large japan naval base there, just like the location because it would give UK 5 extra IPCs as well if not retaken and is smack dab in the middle of the ocean, only one turn from the US coast as well.
Russia: Gain 5 IPC if allies control Manchuria
-there was fighting along there, and it would make japan think twice about leaving it wide open on T1. Not sure though.
UK: Gain 5 IPC if no axis ships are in SZ 5, 13, 14, 16 (maybe add 35, 39, 47, maybe remove 5, perhaps just the SZ around the capital?)
-it was extremely important for the UK to control the sea.
These may be horrible, or they may be decent, but I tried.
To defend an Indian UK I do have an idea although it is a stretch, even from the double trans.
Turn 1 pull back all but 1 inf to Persia, send the trans-jordan inf to join, along with the egypt tank and fig (if they survived) and well as your bomber (optional), ensure US sends 2 figs to Australia.
On turn 2 counter attack/move all units back into India. This gives you 4 inf, 1 art, 1 arm, 1 fig, 1 bomb. This should be more than enough to kill whatever took it, then have the US follow with there 2 Australian figs for defense.
Downside is you cannot produce anything until turn 3, upside is japan is pretty far away.
The other thing that may help south africa is the Australian transport, going east it can begin shucking inf on turn 4, going west turn 3, not sure if that would be worth it though, maybe if you can dead zone India for a few turns.
I’m wondering what everyone’s opinion on building an IC as the UK, and if so where and when.
The biggest reasons you would want an IC, maybe even on turn 1, is to help in the pacific, middle east, and africa as it takes time to get more units into those theaters. On the other hand, bombers can reach Persia, Sudan, China, and a few other nations within a turn from the island, and you need money to take on the Europe front for fleet building. Combine that with few good locations for an IC and i’m not too sure.
India would be a great location, but ultimately it cannot be defended.
Egypt is in the same boat, great location, but difficult to keep Italy away.
South Africa would be nice, but it takes just as long to get units from that location into the fight as it does from the UK herself!
Eastern Canada would be pretty pointless due to its location.
Australia doesn’t look too bad, and the US can reinforce with 2 fighters on turn one to help its defense, but you can only threaten the Pacific, it doesn’t help get units into the middle east.
What does everyone else think, just ignore those areas and go for landings? Wait a few turns? Did I miss a good location?
I agree, this is for when they decide to go for Russia’s throat on turn 1. Although sinking the German fleet is not a big deal with 2 figs, 1 bomber, and don’t underestimate the defensive abilities of 2 fully loaded carriers with 2 destroyers as fodder, it takes about 8 planes to bring that fleet down, Germany will not have that many on turn 2 very often. As far as Africa if Italy is focused on Europe they cannot bring much to bear down there, and the US can always hit there within a turn.
It is just a bit surprising to me how quickly the UK can bring a fleet to bear on Europe.
I’m wondering on how well this would work out for the allies.
On UK turn one purchase 3 transports, 1 AC, 1 inf, and 1 armor, move the Canadian inf east. Sink the German fleet, move your Egypt fighter to Z8 where you rally your fleet. Have the US send there eastern fighter to your AC on there turn as well as there starting navy. On UK2 purchase another aircraft carrier and as many units as you can afford (you should collect a fair amount of money at the end of your first turn) and land in France. Place your new AC with your fleet and load it up, if you lost a fig sinking the Germans have the US send you another one. The US could also begin to shuck, send minor bomber support, or whatever they choose. Italy will have a difficult time retaking France alone with 8 enemies on it, and with an aggressive Russia and/or US support you could threaten capitals very quickly. As far as income, France is worth 11 IPC to almost every player (Germany, US, UK, and even Italy depending).
This would be best against an aggressive Germany when Russia is also playing aggressively, let Russia grind down the Germans while you land on there doorstep.
Not sure if this would work, but it would be an interesting attempt.
G1 move all subs/sea units to Z6 (your going to lose your trans sadly), build 2-3 additional subs and at least 1 bomber this turn as well.
Now as far as air moves there up to you, but the fleet in Z12 must die (as that destroyer can reach you this turn), you can hit it with 3 figs easily and if you want to risk it hit the Z9 fleet with your bomber, Egypt, or against Russia.
The downside is the UK keeps there battleship, and they may or may not go after your subs with it, that is why you may want to move the cruiser there as well (help sink the BB). I’m not sure what the odds are for 3 subs vs a BB are, but I expect your subs would win, if not they can submerge and the BB can be dealt with next turn. This will put the UK off to placing a fleet nearby, and with the bomber or two they will be hesitant to try to block you in. Also, your sub fleet can take two routes out if they want. Just an idea.
The other thing you could try is a turn 1 AC and build subs, not sure how well that would work.
In all honesty I prefer the 2 AC 1 bomb build currently as it still allows you to wipe out the Italian fleet and gives other options.
The reason the Italian fleet is such a threat, is the landings from the black sea. If Russia does not have to worry about those I think they will hold out for a much greater time against the German tank blitz.
Also, if Italy is only making 10 IPC a turn, plus suffering a bombing run or two a turn, they are effectively out of the game, forcing the Germans to protect France.
I’m wondering if a ‘containment’ approach is best. Have UK/US focus on killing the Italian fleet and securing Africa which pretty much takes Italy out of the game, while engaging Japan in the sea to reduce the amount they can spend on land units, and using SBRs to further slow down the European front.
Think UK1 2 carriers and an IC either south Africa or Australia. Land your 3 UK fighters and one US fighter upon them. At the same time the US can send 2 fighters and a bomber to Australia to draw out Japan, while preparing to drop units into Africa with UK cover. Using a combination of carriers, bombers, subs and destroyers the US/UK should be able to force Japan to spend alot of effort in the southern Pacific.
@Imperious:
I can take it on G2.
I will move everything to Egypt and land 2 units from German transport on G1
Italy will attack by sending the tank into jordan and landing another tank and fighter, plus 3 shoreshots on I1
The new rules for invasions allows my fighter and perhaps a tank to retreat to egypt. I will get 3 hits
Then on G2 Germany swings with planes and lands 2 more in Jordan with stuff in Egypt. I think that will do it. Right?
Id rather UK buy a navy and start sending stuff to karelia. this Mediterranean exercise is a sideshow for the real pain in Russia developing. UK needs to focus on the REAL issue in Russia to pull it out.
UK goes after Germany. How are you moving all these units into Egypt on G1? Unless you mean to say you are changing your overall strategy and attacking Egypt on G1? You have me a bit confused. Also, where are these two Italian tanks coming from on turn 1? (please note I’m using ABattleMap so perhaps I have the wrong starting layout). And remember, your German transport will get destroyed on UK1 if they choose (bomber or Egypt fighter depending).
Lastly, Italy only gets 2 shore shots on turn 1, unless the rule goes by ground units attacking and not ground units dropped from transports.
If I am going to build for broke with bombers I will retreat all UK forces possible to trans-jordan. That is 4 inf, 1 art, 1 arm, 1 fig, you cannot destroy it I1 or G2.
In all honesty though I think I prefer the 2 AC 1 Bomb build, as it gives me flexibility on UK/US turn 2.
Yes UK will always be able to sink the med fleet regardless of how many ships are built provided they have a landing zone, UK makes more money even after Japan starts taking territory than Italy and even if they do not hit the fleet they can always use the bombers for bombing runs which is very damaging to Italy.
At the end of UK1 they should collect around 30 IPC, plus 5 for the Gibraltar NO, plus an additional 11 if they take France. That is a potential 46+ to spend UK2, or another 2-3 bombers plus other units.
Lastly, depending on what your going for with US and if you going mainly air with UK to start dropping off two inf on Gibraltar (either US or UK) will allow you to land your fighters there to help against the med fleet.
Another possibility is to build 2 AC on UK1, letting the US land a fig and landing your 3 UK figs on it turn 1 (they can all reach SZ 27) along with whatever else you choose to build with 15 IPCs (1 bomb would be my choice, or a trans). This will allow you to hit SZ 14 on UK2 with 3 figs plus your bombers, or protecting any/all landings on France allowing the US to begin the shuck fun, or simply moving into SZ 13 to deny Italy one of there NOs or SZ 12 allowing you to strike anywhere within the med on your next turn and cover US troops in Africa, or any other number of options. If you really focus on Italy with US/UK they should fall by the end of turn 3 or 4 without strong German aid. Use a similar method from revised, UK clears the sea providing escort and US lands the troops.
I understand what you are saying and I could be mistaken, I just feel that the threat in the south is greatly reduced by sinking the med fleet allowing the Soviets to focus on the northern front to stall once you remove the threat of landings. I could be mistaken.
Actually I would be able to land in France on UK2 as my fleet would be deployed at the end of my turn.
Secondly I could use the planes for bombing runs, keep them in the UK, and just wait for you to hit the black sea to sink the fleet. (moving the fig to turkey with the retreating India forces or into Russia).
Lastly, the US could land on turn 1 if they wanted to bringing 1 inf, 1 art, 1 bomb on Algeria vs 1 inf and 1 - 2 figs. IF the US wins there is no German air within range to strike back (granted just taking down 2 figs is a victory in its own as it allows the UK to build a much smaller fleet), now that I think about it UK could hit there turn 1 as well with 1 inf, 1 arm, 1 fig and 1 bomb. Granted, you could leave more units in Algeria, but that would allow the UK to crush Libya on turn 1, which would not be a big deal other than if the Italians counter the fleet does not move and the UK air sends it to the bottom of the sea on the next turn since SZ 15 is the only safe location for the fleet without Egypt and Trans-Jordan as landing sites.
I personally feel that it is very dangerous for the Germans not to take Egypt on turn 1 as any loss in that area puts Italy in a very bad position which the allies can easily do with UK using a 3 bomber turn 1 build, but hey I’m just bored waiting to play this version on Triple A. :-D