@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
Ok. Then just one last thing
What are you referring too with figsD@4 ?A naval fig D@4 only in a Dog Fight ?
When I was talking about D@4, it can be understood both ways. Either with your actual Naval Fighter or the yet to implement Fighter with lower cost.
BB and Cruiser with split dice can work for both situations.
@Imperious-Leader said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
OK keep in mind only some nations modified their cruisers as AA gun platforms. USA and to a lessor extent Japan utilized this capability. The elite ships of the German Navy also had this. Otherwise, the Cruiser was a protector for Carriers or long range “hunter”
If your keeping D6, im not in favor of multiple dice. D12 is a much better system for this.
No, we are just talking about D12, nothing else. I agree D12 is a much better system when there is many details into the roster and game mechanics.
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
Ok. Then just one last thing
What are you referring too with figsD@4 ?A naval fig D@4 only in a Dog Fight ?
I know that Carriers were only firing at aircraft, since it is A2 D4, I was wondering if you are going to keep every AA roll @3 to keep things simple. Or make Carrier special in that regard with a little higher and lower values.
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
Ok. Wait a min. Are these CR BB two dice rolls against my planes being lowered in cost and A and D. Because my figs don’t defend at 4 it’s 7
I worked under the assumption that basic Naval Fighter were at Cost 10, and other values according to this, not lowered cost adjustment for aircraft.
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
Or are you saying figs D4 in Dog fights ?
Until you make your mind about all of these changes, this is enough that Fighter dogfight work D@4.
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
Ok. Only planes attacking both ships get to roll 2 dice.
But, what is the defense values of Carriers?
If only having AA rolls, and zero dice vs ships?
Maybe to keep a similar @3, you might need to lower down a bit the Carrier cost, to 12 IPCs?
Or are you going to make the special “4” defense for both Fighter and Carrier on defense?
@SS-GEN
Keeping a low @3 vs aircraft, allows to keep an higher regular combat value for the big guns of Cruisers and Battleships. It is playable.
However, this might imply sometimes, the reverse.
If only attacking are aircraft, can you defend your Cruiser or Battleships with other big guns rolls.
IMO, in that case, I would use both dice against aircraft only.
So AA roll is true AA gun but warships gun turrets can still blasts into the air.
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
Looking at this some more the Cruiser will be a pretty strong ship due to being able to take 2 hits on a plane and a ship. Its like a 2 hit ship for damage now. The BB can get 4 hits before its sunk. Did you consider those numbers ?
How these look if we figure out a new numbers table for 2 AD dice ships ?
CR A3 pl A3 ship
BB A4 pl A4 ship Damaged A3 pl A3 shipMaybe with the CR A4 A4 BB A4 A5 may not work with plane C10 ?
I can see planes Costing 8 or 9. At least Naval Figs and Dive Bombers.Still will try it games. Just got to come up with a value that we are all OK with for starters.
For your info.
To get different odds for 4 cases:
Cruiser @3/12 vs aircraft, @3/12 vs other unit
2 hits: @3 * @3 = 9 out 144 or 0.75/12 or 6.25% * 16 IPCs = 1 IPC
1 aircraft hit: @3 vs @9 = 27 out of 144 or 2.25/12 or 18.75% * 10 IPC = 1.875 IPCs
1 regular hit: @9 vs @3 = 27 out of 144 or 2.25/12 or 18.75% * 6 IPC = 1.125 IPCs
0 hit: @9 vs @9 = 81 out of 144 or 6.75/12 or 56.25%
SUM: 4.00 IPCs
Compared to Cruiser Cost 10, @7, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 10 IPCs = 5.83 IPCs
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 6 IPCs = 3.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 5/12 * 10 IPCs = 0.00
Average: 4.665 IPCs
Battleship @3/12 vs aircraft, @5/12 vs other unit
2 hits: @3 * @5 = 15 out 144 or 1.25/12 or 10.42% * 16 IPCs = 1.667 IPC
1 aircraft hit: @3 vs @7 = 21 out of 144 or 1.75/12 or 14.58% * 10 IPC = 1.458 IPCs
1 regular hit: @9 vs @5 = 45 out of 144 or 3.75/12 or 31.25% * 6 IPC = 1.875 IPCs
0 hit: @9 vs @7 = 63 out of 144 or 5.25/12 or 43.75%
SUM: 5.00 IPCs
Compared to Battleship Cost 15, @9, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 9/12 * 10 IPCs = 7.50 IPCs
1 regular hit only, odds are 9/12 * 6 IPCs = 4.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 3/12 * 10 IPCs = 0.00
Average: 6.00 IPCs
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
Guys are concerned about over kill to.
In addition, if you decide that this AA roll @3 only work if there is an enemy aircraft available, you are radically diminishing Cruiser and Battleship combat values.
When I first suggested the above split dice, I was still considering that, in absence of aircraft, Cruiser and BB can still roll their AA combat value, but casualty apply to warships, DD, Subs, Cruiser, etc.
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
Looking at this some more the Cruiser will be a pretty strong ship due to being able to take 2 hits on a plane and a ship. Its like a 2 hit ship for damage now. The BB can get 4 hits before its sunk. Did you consider those numbers ?
Is there a way to config in the extra hits before ships are sunk.
CR C10 A4 .48 pl A3 .36 ship = .84 but have to consider it can hit 2 pieces. 1.68 ?
BB C15 A4 .56 pl A5 .70 ship = 1.26 1 Dam A3 .42 pl A4 .56 ship = .98 2 hits 2.24 ?
My BB goes to A6D6 when damaged.
But also the BB can hit 4 pieces before its sunk. These 2 ships will be way to strong on first round of combat maybe and at least in my game you can retreat your planes after 1 round of combat if there’s a lot of plane kills. Would not be uncommon to lose 4 planes after 1 round of combat. 2 in a DF and 2 in naval battle if there’s 1 BB and CR. I guess will have to see. I will have to do some Naval test battles.
How these look if we figure out a new numbers table for 2 AD dice ships ?
CR A3 pl A3 ship
BB A4 pl A4 ship Damaged A3 pl A3 shipMaybe with the CR A4 A4 BB A4 A5 may not work with plane C10 ?
I can see planes Costing 8 or 9. At least Naval Figs and Dive Bombers.Still will try it games. Just got to come up with a value that we are all OK with for starters.
The reaction about “overkill” is natural.
But the statistics might show that is less scary than first thought.
On Cruiser Cost 10, @4 vs aircraft, @3 vs ship or else, here are the numbers:
1 aircraft and 1 other hit, 2 casualty: odds are: 1/12
1 regular hit only, odds are 2/12
1 aircraft and nothing else, odds are 3/12
No casualty at all: 6/12
Compared to Cruiser Cost 10, @7, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12
No casualty at all: 5/12
So, playing with 2 dice split in two values, there is more odds of no casualty, 50%.
But, there is a small chance, 1 out 12, 8.33% to get 2 hits.
Splitting dice into 1 vs Aircraft and 1 vs other, is not a doubling of odds at all.
If only considering a single combat round, there is no big difference about damage.
Let’s suppose that such Cruiser will hit a 10 IPCs unit or a 6 IPCs unit.
Hence, Cruiser Cost 10, @7, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 10 IPCs = 5.83 IPCs
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 6 IPCs = 3.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 5/12 * 10 IPCs = 0.00
Average: 4.665 IPCs
Let’s suppose that such Cruiser will hit a 10 IPCs unit, and a 6 IPCs Destroyer.
On Cruiser Cost 10, @4 vs aircraft, @3 vs ship or else, here are the numbers:
1 aircraft and 1 other hit (Destroyer), 2 casualty: odds are: 1/12 *16 IPCs = 1.33 IPCs
1 regular hit only (Destroyer), odds are 2/12 * 6 IPCs = 1 IPC
1 aircraft and nothing else, odds are 3/12 * 10 IPCs = 2.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 6/12 * 0 IPC = 0.00
SUM: 4.83 IPCs
Your previous Cruiser was only @4 vs aircraft.
Cruiser Cost 10, @4, odds:
1 aircraft only, odds are 4/12 * 10 IPCs = 3.33 IPCs
If you go the reverse values for Cruiser,
like Cost 10, @3 vs aircraft, @4 vs ship or else, here are the numbers:
1 aircraft and 1 other hit (Destroyer), 2 casualty: odds are: 1/12 *16 IPCs = 1.33 IPCs
1 regular hit only (Destroyer), odds are 3/12 * 6 IPCs = 1.50 IPC
1 aircraft and nothing else, odds are 2/12 * 10 IPCs = 1.67 IPCs
No casualty at all: 6/12 * 0 IPC = 0.00
SUM: 4.50 IPCs
In that regard, you will be below the average of a regular Cruiser facing from 6 to 10 IPCs units:
Hence, Cruiser Cost 10, @7, odds:
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 10 IPCs = 5.83 IPCs
1 regular hit only, odds are 7/12 * 6 IPCs = 3.50 IPCs
No casualty at all: 5/12 * 10 IPCs = 0.00
Average: 4.665 IPCs
HTH make up your mind about these special rolls.
According to my taste, I would like to consider that last “@3” as the usual AA roll in all circumstances, except for a Fighter on defense keeping the high “4” against aircraft.
That way, you can also us this “@3” for Battleship and damaged Battleship.
Battleship, Cost 15, @3 vs aircraft, @6 vs ships or else.
Damaged BB, @3 vs aircraft, @3 vs ships or else.
For your info.
To explain where I got all odds for 4 cases: 1/12, 2/12, 3/12, 6/12.
@3/12 vs aircraft, @4/12 vs other unit
2 hits: @3 * @4 = 12 out 144 or 1/12
1 aircraft hit: @3 vs @8 = 24 out of 144 or 2/12
1 regular hit: @9 vs @4 = 36 out of 144 or 3/12
0 hit: @9 vs @8 = 72 out of 144 or 6/12
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
Yes we will test it. I made the final decision.
Why not. Both Ships were doing simultaneous A and D so 2 dice make sense.
So let me know how the playtest go.
No need to change too much at a time
This double dice capacity boost Cruiser and BB but they don’t get the versatility of aircraft.
And historically these units were good against air and sea. So assuming numbers are quite balanced, the main question is about this double dice procedure. Is it playable or confusing? Is it slowing the pace or keeping the game flow?
IMO, this has precedence over other historical accuracy matter.
@SS-GEN
I know that many BB turrets were converted for anti-aircraft purpose.
All Powers understood after 1941 how aircraft were an important factor to consider in naval combat.
Whether you choose between @4 or @3 is more a designer decision.
As long as you keep the same coloured D12 to treat as AA, you will be testing a new mechanics.
It will be a judgement call based on ease of playtest application or the contrary.
Giving 2 different dice colour, does confuse or add details without confusion?
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
@baron-Münchhausen said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
Yes if I have this right. For every round of combat for a cruiser your saying is
D12. A8 D8 any roll of 4 or less can put hit towards a plane. ?Not exactly.
I imply that every “4” or less means a hit for a Cruiser.
Then, gives to A/D Cruiser a green “D12” die and a blue sky “D12” die.
Now you can totally play according to your thematic that Cruiser were good at AA but not only against aircraft. Cruiser still have a few big turrets.
For instance, assumed blue die is for aircraft and the green die for any unit.
Each time a Cruiser is rolling, you roll the 2 dice.
Let’s suppose 4 cases:
A) blue and green rolled both “5” or up. No casualty.
B) blue is “4” or less, green is “5” or up. Owner’s have to choose an aircraft.
C) blue is “5” or up, green is “4” or less. Owner’s choose anyone unit as casualty.
D) blue is “4” or less, green is “4” or less. Meaning two hits.
Owner’s have to choose an aircraft AND choose another unit as casualty.You can even apply a similar feature of 2 D12 dice for Battleship.
Assuming BB are A9 D9 C15 2hits, just split: @4 vs aircraft, then @5 for any unit.Ok I see what your saying now. But I don’t agree totally on a Battleship getting close to the same for hitting a plane. BB didnt shot down that many planes and besides there 's not that many in game. Maybe go with @3 plane and @6 ship.
I like this.
Cruiser C9 A@3 Blue die plane hit A@4 red die Ship hit.
BB C15 A@3 Blue die plane hit A@6 red die ship hit.
I might add:
You can even apply a similar feature of 2 D12 dice for Battleship.
Assuming BB are A9 D9 C15 2hits, just split: @4 vs aircraft, then @5 for any unit.
And because Cruiser are cheaper than Battleship, you get a better AA capacity for your bucks with Cruiser: 6 Cruiser giving 6AA@4 (10 IPCs) vs 4 Battleship giving 4AA@4 (15 IPCs), same way than Shore bombardment are better with Cruiser.
I suggested you keep the 10 IPCs because it provides a wider range of cost and 10 is easy to calculate. And all 10 IPCs aircraft may be lower in the cost structure, in that case.
The other die is not directly at ship. It is opened up to the owner, as a regular combat roll.
It is to open up the possibility of using cheaper aircraft for casualties. So, in that case, the owner may decide between cheaper unit, such as DD, Subs and aircraft…
Once this said, It seems interesting that the main number for hitting aircraft during all combat rounds is “4” for Fighters (at least on defense), Cruiser and Battleship. Less things to remember…
But you may prefer that number be “3”, making defending Fg special with “4”.
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
Yes if I have this right. For every round of combat for a cruiser your saying is
D12. A8 D8 any roll of 4 or less can put hit towards a plane. ?
Not exactly.
I imply that every “4” or less means a hit for a Cruiser.
Then, gives to A/D Cruiser a green “D12” die and a blue sky “D12” die.
Now you can totally play according to your thematic that Cruiser were good at AA but not only against aircraft. Cruiser still have a few big turrets.
For instance, assumed blue die is for aircraft and the green die for any unit.
Each time a Cruiser is rolling, you roll the 2 dice.
Let’s suppose 4 cases:
A) blue and green rolled both “5” or up. No casualty.
B) blue is “4” or less, green is “5” or up. Owner’s have to choose an aircraft.
C) blue is “5” or up, green is “4” or less. Owner’s choose anyone unit as casualty.
D) blue is “4” or less, green is “4” or less. Meaning two hits.
Owner’s have to choose an aircraft AND choose another unit as casualty.
You can even apply a similar feature of 2 D12 dice for Battleship.
Assuming BB are A9 D9 C15 2hits, just split: @4 vs aircraft, then @5 for any unit.
And because Cruiser are cheaper than Battleship, you get a better AA capacity for your bucks with Cruiser: 6 Cruiser giving 6AA@4 (10 IPCs) vs 4 Battleship giving 4AA@4 (15 IPCs), same way than Shore bombardment are better with Cruiser.
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
I have Cruiser A4 D4 C10 M3 at a plane or ship each round of combat.
Toying about the two coloured D12, and if all Fighters are hitting directly aircraft.
A way to boost Cruiser in that case, can be to add another dice to treat as a regular hit in combat.
For instance, Cruiser A8 (0.96) D8 (0.96) C10 M3, 1@4 at a plane AND 1@4 each round of combat.
Compared to Destroyer A3 (1.00) D3 (1.00) C6 M2.
You get a similar combat value for cost.
While Battleship A9 (1.26) D9 (1.26) C15 with 2 hits (1.26)
Seems a correct increase in strength.
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
I would at least play test after the 2 games coming up in June. Always open to changes for the better. I mentioned this to another group member and are all for lowering the values for fig and Tac , dive planes. Just have to figure out what planes can hit what planes and if I don’t need the DF round for figs and naval fig planes And tacs dive and bombers get a DF roll.
I do have all A and D planes can retreat after 1 round of combat but that is with a DF round first and planes getting shot at for 1 round from cruisers before they can retreat.
The principle behind lower cost and values I suggested, is to keep the same abilities for each aircraft but make the combat value so a hit imply also the special capacity.
The idea is there is no separate “7” to “5” is only a hit, “4” to “1” is a hit and allows pick target.
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
Ya. I think if I did a change for now or a bit later I would just keep stuff the same but have the lowered values for planes and add to setup.
With US and Japan getting 1 more Carrier each.
From my playtests, it becomes an evidence that all Powers were drastically loosing OFF/DEF Punch and were affected during at least first and second turn of play. Of course, if your setup is already customized (mine was based on AA50 or 1942.2 OOB) you will judge from playtest if not adding units still provide an interesting balanced gameflow.
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
If both figs hot air craft first then I don’t see a need for a DF with figs. Just give Tac and Bomb a One round DF roll before the combat round starts.
I never thought about this special mechanic that way.
You are right, giving a 1 time AA roll for TcB and Bomber in addition to the regular combat.
The only exception is about not giving a preemptive strike on enemy’s aircraft with that roll, meaning that you don’t remove immediately casualties from this roll.
From a designer POV, it is harder, but possible, to formulate into a special stage within regular combat.
Another way to handle this, is giving a specific coloured D12 dice for AA of StB and TcB would solve the issue allowing to roll both dice at same time but treating the AA coloured accordingly.
In fact, I usually roll first step of combat all Fighters either offense and defense, in that regard I can add TcB and StBombers AA roll during the first combat round, then allowing TcB and StB to roll again for their specific “pick target” or “carpet bombing” dice.
@SS-GEN
In my game, there is none for simplicity.
Fighter are aiming at other aircraft.
Tacbombers are aiming at ground or naval.
So, if you need to protect TcB, bring Fighters.
However, DF phase can still have a part.
It allows TcBs to fire at aircraft once.
Probably more balance that way.
@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:
Let me ask you this. You are saying lower values and cost to get more planes in game. Ok I get that.
You also want more planes in game due to a lot of planes were shot down plus also can take a plane now for fodder ?What about countries that have only 1 or 2 figs or 1 fig 1 Tac on setup.
US Japan benefit the most. UK London would at least get 1 extra fig.
In my own game, I bend the conversion in favor of minor power.
1 or 2 Fighter received 1 additional, 1 Fg & 1 TcB get another aircraft…
Which type is according to what fit the better narrative.
Since you have 4 types, you may chose to balance with one type over the other.
Also, you may decide to converte with the lower ratio with Japan and Germany.
Instead of 3 additional for 10 Naval Fighter, it can be only 2.
However, due to lower cost of aircraft, Allies are going to built more at a faster rate with their economy.
