Posts made by baron Münchhausen

@SS-GEN said in SS GEN's 1941 Global War Game:

Here are the values for pieces updated for next game. These numbers work pretty good now. The question is do we give a destroyer an aa shot at planes ? Of course most say no. But all ships had aa guns. Some better and some ships had more of them. Some were shot down but also when these guns were fired at planes it would divert some planes away from fear of being hit. But if you really look at the d6 games and most don’t agree with ships getting aa, is technically BB CR and DD are getting plane hits in all games but at attackers and defenders choice. So in other words planes are not being taken as casualties too with attacker and defenders choice until last couple rounds of combat. So look at what I’m doing in away is yes you get a low aa ship shot but it’s also forcing the defender to pick a plane casualty in the first round in combat and beyond instead of the last round or so of combat. So now we don’t have the dog fight 1 round before all combat neither.
Plus planes are attacking planes the same time.
So here are the values with the destroyer.
BB C15 AD@3 plane & AD@8 ship. Dam AD@2 plane & AD@6 ship
CR C9 M3 AD@3 plane & AD@7 ship.
DD C6 AD@1 plane & AD@3 ship.
Fig C10 M5 AD@2 plane & AD@5 gr/ship.
Tac C10 M5 AD@1 plane & AD@5. 3 or less pick.
N fig C10 M4 AD@2 plane & AD@4 gr/ship.
N Dive C10 M4 AD@1 plane & AD@5. 3 or less pick.
Stg. B C10 A4@3 1 round only. D@2. Can’t hit naval ships.
AC C14 D@3 plane only. Dam. D@2 plane only.
EC C8 D@2 plane only.

Hi SS,
I wonder what impact do you see in your game with so many units being even off-defense.

I usually based my roster on the disparity between attack and defense such as OOB G40, (D6) Subs A2 vs D1, Carrier A0 vs D2, Fg A3 vs D4.
Usually, defense is higher for most unit because attacker always get the initiative to choose where there is a fight.

Did you try before something like:
Carrier C14 A0 D4 able to hold 3 aircraft
Naval Fg C8 A4 D5,

@baron-Münchhausen

I reviewed the 2 hits Battleship values to 2.5 multiplier factor.
It is an approximation but this is easier to use this value if you need to assess between two naval fleet during a live game with no AACalc allowed.

It is based on the very even (almost 50%-50% survival equilibrium ) combat between 1 Destroyer @2 and 1 Cruiser @3 against 1 Battleship, 2 hits @4.
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=1&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=1&dCru=1&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

1 Destroyer @2 and 1 Cruiser @3
5 pips * 2 hits = 10 pips*hits

1 Battleship, 2 hits @4.
4 pips * 1 BB worth 2.5 hits = 10 pips*hits

@SS-GEN said in Special SBR phase prior to regular Combat move:

We just played with figs C8 stg b C8

In that regard, it means that Fighter is twice better at dogfight than StBomber.
It is probably interesting to commit aircraft into various combat because of lower cost.
My own cost is Fighter at 7 IPCs and TcBs at 8 IPCs.

It is a small margin but your Fighter value is less direct against aircraft than mine. So, it means less aircraft attrition somehow. So, all in all, I feel both Fighter configuration are balance.

@barnee said in Special SBR phase prior to regular Combat move:

@baron-Münchhausen

Hi baron

Idk about 2 sorties for 1 mission. Doesn’t seem right to me. I guess in a way it already does that. You can defend against SBR against as many attacks as you face from other players and then do your offense on your turn.

Have you tried the 5 dollar Bomber much ? I’ve found it pretty fun. Not perfect but better than oob imo.
They have no dog fight ability, which a 1 in 12 hit would be worth trying for them imo. Would give a slight chance of a B-17 shooting down a fighter, but can’t do it with triplea unfortunately.

What I have found is more SBR’s, but you need to escort, otherwise defending fighters get a free shot at the Bombers. Makes one keep more fighters for defense too. Especially W Germany and Germany when in range. Need more Escorts for Moscow attacks and Germany really needs to keep the Luftwaffe’ s Fighters strong.

Keeps Germany from going as big with ground if you want to SBR, which is pretty key I would think.

Also, if one uses the alternate sub/DD rules in the House Rules Mod, and you get even more divergent behavior.

Hi Barnee,
I mostly played around 1942.2 in your modified version and it was pretty interesting to use StBs with no attack factor compared to Fg interception @1.

My board game plays with Fighter always shooting at planes first, so it was quite a waste of useful rolls when dedicating Fgs to SBR only. I tought making a whole separate phase might solve this part.

But, the other intersting tactical aspect is the immediate reward from bombing airbases and negating scramble prior to a sea combat in regular combat.

Hi SS,

@SS-GEN said in Special SBR phase prior to regular Combat move:

Hows this. All SBR attacks are done before normal combat moves. So you send attacking bombers with escorts and defender can scramble as many figs as he chooses to intercept with and conduct 1 round of dog fight. Then surviving figs from both sides have to land back to where they came from. Now AA fires on bombers and any surviving bombers SBR. Then land Bombers.
Now conduct your normal combat moves and do your normal combat with all planes ( Can’t use bombers from SBR raids ? ) from both sides that were involved in prior SBR combat.
DF values Fig AD 1d6@1 & Tacs/Stg B. AD 1d12@1.

I have somebody testing these values in d6 game for ship AA and plane vs plane DF
with no dog fighting going on in the first round of combat only unless its an SBR raid.

That is exactly the way I would proceed in my game. In addition, since I play on boardgame, I use a similar ratio of dogfight values. Fighters are doubled compared to StB or TcB. I used Fighter A2 D2 vs A1 for bombers.
So, it can work as well with 2 out 12 for Fighters vs 1 out of 12 for bombers.

The difference compared to your game is about Strategic bombers cost 5 IPCs with no regular combat value.
So, they have no use in regular combat, it is a specialized unit for SBR.

The balance issue is about the price of Fighter because at 10 IPCs it makes 2 StBs A1 pretty killing machine against a single Fighter if keeping same IPC basis.

For StB, it is a ratio of 4 (2 pips * 2 hits) vs 2 pips*hits (2 pips * 1 hit), for Fighter.

Fighters at 7 IPCs work better from a balance POV.
7 StBs A1 (49 pips*hits: 7 pips * 7 hits) vs 5 Fgs D2 (50 pips*hits: 10 pips * 5 hits)
And makes a good fight for the cost.
Since we all assume that interceptors should be better at shooting bombers than reverse.

Re: G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions)

Since Strategic bombers at 5 IPCs with no combat values outside SBR being an interesting part of these rule suggestions, I wonder how it can be possible to do a complete SBR phase but isolated from Combat move and regular combat, allowing all active Power’s Fighters to act as escort for Strategic bombers and TcBs. Such designated Fighters would still be allowed to take part of regular combat move.

Yes, it is true that escorting Fighters kind of having a double dipping.
However, Fighters acting as escort would have to land into their original territories or aircraft carriers.

Do you see some issues about this rule to make incentive for dogfight in SBR?

First impact, some bases could be inoperative due to a few bombing raids prior to Combat Move.
Such cases may prevent a few scramble before being able to repair Air Base.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Ya I sent in e mail exactly what u posted. I made a decision on going with the ships for sure. If I have to after this weekend I’ll test the planes too.
Can always lower ship to ship hit -1.

Problem is I think is everybody’s panicking due to losing planes. Then man I ain’t got money to replace them. Well then retreat after round 1. I mean I’ve seen 3 planes get killed on one side just in 1 round of DF.
I can see planes going cheaper too and adding more to setup but those new planes in setup got to go where you can’t use them on T1 and at least try the best you can anyway.

One way to overcome attritrion is to allow each power a free aircraft built.
Maybe Germany, Japan and USA can get 2 aircraft of their choice while other powers only 1 per turn.
That way, no need to change the cost while testing and assessing the effect of these mechanics on aircraft.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

These options I sent e mails to players. I will be using option 1 for sure.
By lowering the AA shot -1 for ships and increasing the ship shot +1 it we will keep the values for ships the same for more KISS. Yes these numbers can be tweaked. But
for me these look good. The CR did go up +1 in AD compared to old value.
This was also discussed by me where making CR @4 plane or @4 ship.
But now its combined per round of combat. This will also help out one side with no planes attacking or defending. The ships won’t get to the higher values now.
Besides the 2 ships should lose some AD against a ship for making more room for AA
equipment and capabilities plus losing a turret gun on both ships.

I hope your team will like it.

Still, I also believe aircraft can use the same mechanic.
I just tweak regular combat values to make them better (Fg D8/12) but not as much as Cruiser (D9/12) which is also C10.
Assuming TcB narrative that it is as good on offense and defense due to land combat done on known ground and with shorter travel to reload ordinance.
Fighter can still be tweak to D@3 AA D@5 ship or ground.

D12 system
Ships:
BB C15 AD@2 plane & AD@8 ship
1 damage AD@2 Plane & AD@4 ship
CR C10 AD@2 plane & AD@7 ship
AC C15 D@3 plane only. 1 dam D@2 plane only
EC C8 D@3 plane only

Aircraft::
Tac C10 A@1 plane & A@5 pick target
D@1 plane & D@5 pick target
Dive C10 A@1 plane & A@5 pick target
D@1 plane & D@4 pick target
Fig C10 A@2 plane & A@5 ship or ground
D@2 plane & D@6 ship or ground
N Fig C10 A@2 plane & A@4 ship or ground
D@2 plane & D@6 ship or ground

Ok. There is no dog fighting now

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Right. My thought was to lower AA shot @2 which I posted above and whether or not to use the same numbers for ships and planes if they did’nt have an AA shot due to no planes in a battle. So here is my 2 options to go with. I’ll leave it up to group what they want to do. Me personally would do it all with option also with lower plane costs but that is a whole new topic to discuss and dissect.

I see the two options you developed.
My suggestion is a subsection of one of them to keep an higher regular roll and high cost at 10.

Basically, in principle, you can imagine that you use the old values when you once only roll 1 dice with no special attribute, then each aircraft, Cruiser and Battleship get an additional AA dice at low odds (@1 or @2) when enemy’s aircraft are present, for as long as they are part of combat. Of course, there is room to tweak values here and there.

The special cases are Escort and Fleet Carriers which have no regular combat dice but get @3 as long as enemy’s plane are present.

The aircraft attrition can probably be manage somehow, but you have to see a few playtests to analyse impact on strategies or tactics and find different way to deal with it, IMO.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

I did 2 more test battles and god dam I keep dicing the other side with aa plane kills @2. It’s not even the ship aa @3
Never happens for me in a game.
Now I’m lookin at ship aa @2
? Crap is Killin me. Did have one side not get a kill so the battle flip the other way and seems to make closer piece totals in battles can go one way and then next round other way and then normal way. Oh man “The Wayouts” !!!
Got 2 games this weekend and I’m flipping out ! Lol. Just don’t want it to screw things up but it’s not really that bad. I just don’t want over kill in planes. But I’m waiting on group guys for there opinions yet. Vote so far 2-0 for it.

Many things and options going on as I see.

What makes interesting a special AA roll is that aircraft are costlier than DD, Subs and TPs.
Otherwise it is less relevant to have a special roll if the first casualty oin order is a cheaper aircraft.

It is interesting to consider a small roll @2 for Fg and Cruiser and BB while the other dice is treated normally.
When there is no aircraft, you don’t roll this AA roll and there is no rising up of the regular roll.
Less to remember. Bombers can be a minimal roll @1.

You may even think about it in the other direction.
Keeping all Fg and TcB at C10 but with an additional AA roll each round if enemy’s plane are present.

《The plane numbers will not be used yet. Tweaking those as of now. Each ship and plane piece rolls 2 dice with different colors.
D12 system
BB C15 AD@2 plane & AD@8 ship
1 damage AD@2 Plane & AD@4 ship
CR C10 AD@2 plane & AD@7 ship
AC C15 D@3 plane only. 1 dam D@2 plane only
EC C8 D@3 plane only

Tac C10 A@1 plane & A@5 pick target
D@1 plane & D@5 pick target
Dive C10 A@1 plane & A@5 pick target
D@1 plane & D@4 pick target
Fig C10 A@2 plane & A@5 ship or ground
D@2 plane & D@6 ship or ground
N Fig C10 A@2 plane & A@4 ship or ground
D@2 plane & D@6 ship or ground

Ok. There is no dog fighting now. So each plane gets a plane shot. I kept the number 1 less to see if it’s ok. Worried about over kill and have not added any planes to setup.》

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

AA gun
C5 M1 D@2 at each plane

Each round?
Return shot for plane?

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

What do you mean by my AA gun values and mechanics ?

Don’t you have an Anti-Aircraft Artillery unit?
Moving 1
Cost ?
Attack?
Defense roll @1 vs up to 3 aircraft?
No return shot?

@SS-GEN
I like that warship are @3 AA, Fg @2 AA and TcB @1.
Easy to remember.

With two dice it is almost same odds than 1 dice, treating “2” or less as hit on aircraft and higher scored hits treated as usual.

Now the question is whether or not the two dice mechanic is giving a good pace and a nice flavor to your game.

I’m ok with your numbers, mostly 8.33%, 16,7% or 25% is keeping things in check with minimal values.

Assuming this for your next game, what can be your AAgun values and mechanic?

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Ya I got ideas to for planes.
Tac @1 plane or @6 ground
Fig AD@3 plane or D@7 ground

Without adding any planes at a cheaper cost, lowered AD could go with no DF
Tac AD@2 blue dice Plane hit
AD @5 red dice pic ground or ship
Fig AD@3 blue dice plane hit
AD@4 red dice pic ground or ship

Exactly!
Giving 2 dice means no need to have a dogfight phase.
Each regular combat round is played at 2 level air and naval or land battles.

Now, if all aircraft and major warships are playing on these two level, you need to balance them and specialized each unit according to a different purpose.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

@Imperious-Leader said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Planes fight concurrently with other units but separate until only one side has planes. Not the case that you resolve all plane combat then land combat. That way you can still retreat then to watch your air force get chewed up.

Ya but funny how this concept is not any aa games. Maybe 36 and I’m sure a few personal games.

That is essentially what I’m playing with Fighters at lower cost. It works well.

But, with the new idea of rolling 2 dice for a given unit, I can think of TcB rolling both against aircraft and ground units. Of course, TcB would get a minimal roll vs aircraft while picking ground target at an higher rate.

For instance, using D12, my C8 TcB can be AA@1 and Pickground@4 while Fighter C7 can roll two AA@2 or 1AA@4 until there is no available target then apply roll as usual.

For your game SS, I can think of a Fg doing AA@3 with a regular roll @2 on attack and @4 on defense.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Ya I can deal with this. Without checking history I or your saying a naval fig is better at a DF then a regular fig I’m assuming.
Tac and Dive I can go to DF@2 but in balanced mod there is only a DF for SBR only ? Not a mandatory DF first round combat before regular combat ?

Click on the heart at bottom right of page if you like the posts.

For game purpose and creative variants of similar aircraft. I have no way of telling which type was more effective in a defensive dogfight…
True for balanced Mode values are only for SBR.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

Also I’m a bit hesitant on naval fig D4 in a DF

Hi SS, what makes you so reluctant about Fighter defending @4 (4/12 is 33%) in a Dogfight?
Most game with DF features allows such Fighter defending with 33% odds.
I’m thinking also about Balanced Mode, which play fighter interceptor and escort @2.

You wrote:
Land-based Fighter C10 A@6 D@7 M5 DF A@3 D@3
Naval Fighter C10 A@5 D@7 M4 DF A@3 D@4

Also, for same 10 IPCs cost, I feel that it is a correct trade off between better offense and range compared to landing on Carriers and a small bonus in dogfight.

You wrote:
Land-based Tactical Bomber
C10 A@7 D@5 M5 DF@1
Roll a 3 or less can pick target with return shot

Naval-based Dive Bomber
C10 A@7 D@5 M4 DF@1
Roll a 3 or less can pick target with return shot.

For same 10 IPCs cost, in that case, there is no trade off between better range compared to landing on Carriers.
In addition, with D12, it may be relevant to use the option to increment Dogfight for these two aircraft. After all, 1 out of 6, is not an OP value.
Maybe, you can improve Dogfight of Naval Dive bomber compared to “Stuka” as Land-based TcBomber. If a single value for A/D is what you are looking for these bombers, then @2 might be also correct.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

I made changes. For carriers it looks like your giving a reg Carrier an Attack value ?
Here’s what I’m seeing. Let me know if this was your intention
CR A@3 plane A@5 ship
C.V. A@3 plane D@3 plane 1 dam AD@2 plane
ECV A0 D@3 plane

For the attack value on Carrier, it is up to you.
There is both case for fleet carrier in various games (D12): A0 D4 and A2 D4.
I know that many people advocate that Fleet Carriers were pretty good specialized AA platforms, hence keeping D4 against plane, as you wrote first.
What is your way of seeing Fleet Carriers? What kind of narrative do you apply to them?

I like that Escort Carrier be at A0 D3 vs plane, but Fleet Carrier have to be better.
Cruiser C10 A@3 plane A@5 ship, seems now better as an all around warships.

@barnee said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

@SS-GEN
yea my thinking was if you were concerned with excessive air casualties in the air battle phase you could do something such as, Hit= Die, Miss= Live go onto regular battle and Neutral/No Decision w/e you wanna call it, = doesn’t take place in regular battle but doesn’t Die.

This is represented in regular battle when units miss, but if too many planes either survive or Die in air battle, this would allow another mechanism to regulate the combat.

It could be looked at as a no decision with planes running out of fuel and returning to base after dogfighting or battle damage sustained requiring the same. Not all planes that sustained battle damage were destroyed and not all that did were prevented from completing their mission and engaging in their main, in this case, regular combat either.

Anyway, it may be too tactical for a strategic level game, but thought it could provide an option if air battle casualties were to impactful. So Hit = Die, Miss= Continue, No Result = RTB or Return to Base.

I do follow along here but not 100%, baron can be a little wordy at times : ), so maybe this is already allowed for.

I would love to someday dial your game in for triplea.

Rock On Guys :)

Hi Barney,
long time, no see.
All because of a lady… :)
Do you know if it is a complex matter to translate the D6 mechanics from Triple A into a D12?
Does someone in the Triple A worked out something about Global into a D12 game?

What is the difference between Miss and No Result in your suggestion?
I don’t see the nuance you want to implement.

@SS-GEN said in Global War 1940 2nd ed.:

CV C14 A@0 D@4 plane M2 A@2 plane 1 damage
CVE C8 A@0 D@2 plane M2
CR C10 A@3 plane A@4 ship M3
DD C6 A@3 D@3 M2
SS C7 A@5 D@2 M2

Thanks SS for providing all these values about your full roster.

Everything seems correct and interesting.
Maybe, Cruiser @4 vs ship may seems too low in comparison to Submarine @5.
Can you rise C10 Cruiser to @5 for regular combat?

My other tweak would be to simplify to the @3 AA basic values as main reference.
So here is my suggestion:
CV C14 A@0 D@4 plane M2 A@3 plane 1 damage
CVE C8 A@0 D@3 plane M2

That way, except for the better @4 AA platform such as a Fleet Carrier or a Naval Fighter, all AA rolls will be “3”.

IMO, it will help to maximize the pace and get use to the special AA roll with Cruiser and Battleship, so everyone will get use to this @3 value.

For now, about C14 Carrier, I’m kind have a mixed feeling about it because with a high C10 aircraft, it is a bless to be able to shot them down @4 so, why lower to C12?
If you ever lower the Naval Fg and DiveBomber around C7, then it may be needed to lower Carrier to C12. Otherwise, I would test at C14 for now.