Posts made by B.AnderssonGameMaster

When will a player choose to use his artillery to defend against air units?

In a SBR for sure, but not always in a land based combat! So under what circumstances will one direct the artillery on air units? To answer that question one need to take a closer look at the odds!

Artillery directed against air

Cost damage to attacker: 1/6 * 10 IPCs (15 IPCs if a bomber) = 1.67 IPCs (2.5 IPCs if a bomber)
Cost reduction to defender (opening fire): 1/6(chance) * 3/6 (fightrer) *3 IPCs (infantry casualty) = 0.25 IPCs
Total benefit: >2 IPCs *

*In fact the possibilty of targeting air units is also an advantage that will ad up for each cycle of combat after the first one, since one would never pick an expensive air unit as a casualty as long as there are cheaper units to pick. On the other hand an artillery directed against air units may not be destroyed in order to satisfy a loss and are considered to be captured if the attacking player should conquer the territory.

Artillery directed against land

Cost damage to attacker: 2/6 * 3 IPCs (Infantry casualty) = 1 IPC
Cost damage to attacker (air supremacy): 3/6 * 3 IPCs (Infantry casualty) = 1.5 IPCs

Bottom line

One will direct the artillery against air:
–As long as one think the combat will not last for more than 2 cycles*.
–And if one think he will win the combat so these artillery don’t fall into enemy hands.

*If one can get air supremacy that will affect any other defending artillery directed against land. In that case one would always direct some artillery against air.

@Imperious:

…On artillery topic… the idea of 7 units attacking my planes is not good. Remember 1 out of 10 planes were shot down on average. So only one roll should occur at most in any case, and the artillery unit cannot perform other functions if it commits to aa duty (but can move). It cant have the cake and eat it too…

Ok, after a couple of games of play testing, I do agree to your point of cant have the cake and eat it too! This is my respons to it, and I will update the old one in this forum as well based on it. Any comments?

Antiaircraft Artillery

The regular antiaircraft gun unit is dismissed and replaced by a more versatile artillery unit. In addition to its normal combat ability, artillery can choose to defend as an antiaircraft artillery, but never both in the same turn. Antiaircraft artillery defend during the first cycle of combat only. All regular antiaircraft guns on the game board are replaced by two artillery units.

Your artillery fire against an air unit during the opening fire step of combat. Roll one die for each artillery, but each attacking air unit may not be attacked more than twice. A roll of 1 destroys an attacking air unit. The attacker can pick any bomber or fighter as a casualty, an antiaircraft casualty cannot return fire. An artillery directed against air units may not be destroyed in order to satisfy a loss and are considered to be captured if the attacking player should conquer the territory.

@Imperious:

Who is Jugger?

he is somebody who basically is a carrier pegion that takes info here and drops it off at larrys site, basically all these ideas with NA’s are taken with him like a German adjunctant reporting to the Fuhrer.

I will kill him, soner or later :lol: !

I have now improved the Bomber Strikes rule:

If an aircraft carrier is being targeted in a tactical bombing raid, a hit can be taken by any fighter onboard this carrier.

@Kristofer:

well, Mr Andersson. I must say that you convined me that you are right! And thats now just because im swedish too 8)

Were do you live dude, I live in Sthlm!

If one think a 1 on 6 will bring too much value to a 4IPC unit. Then this will do (I still think the old one is better):

Antiaircraft Artillery

The regular antiaircraft gun unit is dismissed and replaced by a more versatile artillery unit. In addition to its normal combat ability, artillery can choose to defend against air units during the first cycle of combat only. All regular antiaircraft guns on the game board are replaced by artillery units.

Your artillery fire against a targeted air unit during the opening fire step of combat. Roll two dice for each artillery, but each attacking air unit may not be targeted by more than two artillery units. The total for each artillery’s two dice must add to 4 or less to shoot the targeted air unit down, a casualty cannot return fire. The artillery unit may fire again during combat.

@theduke:

…armor don’t get a bonus attack but it seems that an all armor and ftr attack force should share the same air supremacy advantage as when other ground unit types are present.

I do think that the tank is fine as it is on a 3/3, but could be affected like the artillery in an attack as well. And air supremacy will both have an effect on attack (+1 for each matching infantry or tank) and defense (+1 for each matching artillery). I do find it realistic, however I get your point of artificial effect, but think this is better for the game balance. It is historical correct as well!

@theduke:

…also, there should be a air supremacy advantage at sea too but that’s not included.

I disagree in this case. Air units are already almost too powerful in naval combats. I find it balanced as it is! If you think I am wrong, prove it! You going to need some strong arguments!

@Imperious:

It has to be on a D10 or it will bring too much value to a 4IPC unit. If you got Artillery at 2/2 plus +1 for each infantry , plus not it assumes the duty of a 1 in 6 chance of hittling airplanes… YIKES!! now they are better than infantry-

Just make it a d10 rolls as stated, but in the more elaborate manner of structure of which you stated and tell Juggernought your alter ego in crime that we now have a new piece!

Well, Impy I do agree upon that the 1 in 6 chance might be too much. However I think the rule is balanced when it comes to SBRs since it is hard to defend against 2-4 bombers performing a SBR! More over I will stick to a D6 based system. So what do you suggest for a D6 based system? I will think about it and come back as well! :-? Who is Jugger? :wink:

However I do think the price of 4 IPCs is right. You pay one extra IPC for a tank to not be dependant on Air Supremacy and infantry. More over the movement of 2 with blitzing ability is also worth something. Together all those advantages to the artillery unit should be enough to counter the special ability of antiaircraft fire. Don’t you think?

By the way which suggestion do you like most #1 or #2?

@Guerrilla:

because for there relatively low price, someone (like Germany) can stockpile them to deter any Air attack…Try flying through 7-8 Artillery on Germany… plus they can target Bombers in those big attacks on W. Europe… I dunno I’ll have to playtest first to see if I’m right… Would you replace all AA Guns with 1 AA Artillery?

GG

If it is just about the replacement, It is ok to replace all AA Guns with a AA Artillery! Have not thought about that much, but will (play test)!

stockpile to deter air attacks? That is very costly to buy some 7-8 Artillery units for Germany and W. Europe! So I guess it is all fine! More over if Germany buy a lot of artillery, then there wont be much money left for tanks and fighters

If I wanted to attack such an defensive force, with lots of artillery, I would bring in at least two (to cancell any potential air supremacy) fighters and a lots of tanks and even more infantry. By the way I think that all destroyers should be able to make a support shot on amphibious assaults on a 2. So destroyers and battleships will bomb that zone too!

@Guerrilla:

With the Anti-Aircraft Artillery wouldn’t you make it 5 IPC’s? That IMO is reason enough to increase the price…

Why? A tank i still more powerful than an artillery, no matter of this extra special ability. Don’t you think so? If not, I need numbers and statistics! As I said before, “Now those puny artillery (I almost never buy them) would be worth some 4 IPCs”!

You pay one extra IPC for a tank to not be dependant on Air Supremacy and infantry. More over the movement of 2 with bklitzing ability is also worth something. Together all those advantages to the artillery unit should be enough to counter the special ability of antiaircraft fire. Don’t you think?

@theduke:

got it. i got confused. that aspect sounds good.

Thanks! By the way, what do you think about the optional rules for Antiaircraft Artillery and Bomber Strikes? :o

@theduke:

…. the only problems i have with it, and this is more of just a personal bias, is that it seems a bit artificial.

Each infantry or artillery must be matched one-for-one with a supporting fighter.

by “or” do you mean you choose which ground unit type gets the advantage?

The rule says: Fighters can support infantry attacks and artillery defense if no defending fighters are present.

Which means: Fighters support infantry in an attack, but artillery when defending.

And finaly, games like A&A are suposed to be artificial. :wink:

I do think that these new rules need to be play tested. Any one who can help with that or right now come up with any improvements?

Air Supremacy

Fighters can support infantry attacks and artillery defense if no defending fighters are present. Air supremacy increases your infantry’s attack to 2 or your artillery’s defense to 3. Each infantry or artillery must be matched one-for-one with a supporting fighter.

Antiaircraft Artillery

The regular antiaircraft gun unit is dismissed and replaced by a more versatile artillery unit. In addition to its normal combat ability, artillery can choose to defend as an antiaircraft artillery, but never both in the same turn. Antiaircraft artillery defend during the first cycle of combat only. All regular antiaircraft guns on the game board are replaced by two artillery units.

Your artillery fire against an air unit during the opening fire step of combat. Roll one die for each artillery, but each attacking air unit may not be attacked more than twice. A roll of 1 destroys an attacking air unit. The attacker can pick any bomber or fighter as a casualty, an antiaircraft casualty cannot return fire. An artillery directed against air units may not be destroyed in order to satisfy a loss and are considered to be captured if the attacking player should conquer the territory.

Bomber Strikes

Bombers do not fire as regular units. A bomber may either conduct a tactical bombing raid against a targeted enemy unit, or a strategic bombing raid to attack an industrial complex to “destroy” IPC’s. Bombers only attack during the first cycle of combat and have no defense value.

Tactical bombing raid: Each bomber may make a targeted attack (only attack qualify) during the opening fire step of combat. Roll one die per bomber; a roll of 4 or less is a hit. The bomber can pick any enemy unit as a casualty, which may not return fire (except for antiaircraft artillery). If an aircraft carrier is being targeted in a tactical bombing raid, a hit can be taken by any fighter onboard this carrier.

Strategic bombing raid: Resolve a strategic bombing raid in the same way as a regular combat. However, it involves only attacking bombers and defending antiaircraft artillery. During the opening fire step each enemy antiaircraft artillery fires, but each attacking bomber may not be targeted by more than two artillery units. Any bombers that survive may attack the industrial complex. Roll one die for each surviving bomber; however, each bomber can inflict no more IPC loss than the territory’s income value. The opponent must surrender that many IPC’s to the bank (or as many as the player has, whichever is the greater amount). You cannot use the same bombers in a strategic bombing raid and another attack on the same territory in one turn.

@Imperious:

….
I propose that artillery shoot at planes with a preemtive shot with one d10, while up to 2 can fire at each plane (rolled seperatly by plane type) to allow something along the lines of what you say to should be . This would allow an accurate demonstration of a/a abilities since now you have a statistical varation of 0,1,or 2 hits which fall within the framework of the possibility of losing a plane.
The old AA gun can now be a specialized unit such as your heavy artillery or v-2 rocket launcher, or anti-tank gun or a whole host of speciality units. In this way we add a piece, add realism, and dont clutter up the game with complexity.

Ok! I like the idea about get rid of the original AA gun and giving the artillery gun a more versatile role, something like the one in A&AD:

Antiaircraft Artillery
The regular antiaircraft gun unit is dismissed and replaced by a more versatile artillery unit. In addition to its normal combat ability, artillery can choose to defend against air units during the first cycle of combat only. All regular antiaircraft guns on the game board are replaced by two artillery units.

Suggestion #1:
Your artillery fire against air units during the opening fire step of combat. Roll one die for each artillery. A roll of 1 destroys one attacking air unit, a casualty cannot return fire. The artillery unit may only fire ones in a combat cycle and hence cannot fire again during combat until the second cycle of combat, were all artillery units defend normal during combat.

Suggestion #2:
Your artillery fire against a targeted air unit during the opening fire step of combat. Roll one die for each artillery, but each attacking air unit may not be targeted by more than two artillery units. A roll of 1 destroys the targeted air unit, a casualty cannot return fire. The artillery unit may fire again during combat.

When it comes to SBRs, one simply roll one die for each defending artillery as well. A roll on a 1 is a hit! Now those puny artillery (I almost never buy them) would be worth some 4 IPCs. Compare them to armor or infantry, its a lousy piece. But with the special abillity as an anitaircraft gun would be fine. I think I will play test it a couple of times. It would be great if one could get rid of the white piece of anitaircraft artillery, since it really don’t fit the game! :D

@theduke:

yes, interceptors composed the vast majority of the effective defense against sbrs.

my take on why the game designers only included flak in the game is because allowing interceptors into the game creates many ‘loophole’ problems. i don’t think there’s a way to have a simple interceptor (and escort) rule and have it fit in well. if anyone has one, i’d be happy to hear it.

My variant of Jet fighters make it! If you don’t think so I would like to here why you think so. What are the ‘loopholes’ in my variant? :o

@Imperious:

During the war one in ten planes were shot down by anti aircraft fire. Losing a plane with a d6 hitting on a “ONE” is too much of an advantage anyway to increase it to 33% success ratio is really too much power to this unit. The plane idea is not bad. But i dont like how your entire air force just turns into “Jet fighers overnight” and can cause problems. Why cant you just introduce a new unit and why does every previous unit have to morph into 50 different units??? Just add new units to the game that add this flavor you seek… That way you can now build heavy tanks, heavy artillery, jets, heavy bombers, heavy this and heavy that…

Impy I don’t do this just for me or you, but for everyone! And almost everyone does want it to be simple and smooth, which mean not too many different kinds of units. It is much better to upgrade units then adding new ones. It is my opinion and I simply don’t change it for your reasons. I hope you get my point. However I do want you to comment the ideas with good arguments. Could you please give me some that does not includes the use of new units? :D

About the AA gun ability, I do agree to the historical point af view. However it is all about playability and since it is a tech one has to spend some 30 IPCs on, it should be worth it! Don’t you think?

1. Jet Fighters
Your fighters are now jet fighters. Their defense increases to 5, and they cannot be hit by antiaircraft gun fire.

2. Jet Fighters
Your fighters are now jet fighters. They roll two dice each on defense, but still only a singel die in an attack.

3. Jet Fighters
Your fighters are now jet fighters. They are immune to AA fire and may intercept bombers (including superfortresses) in a SBR.

Bomber Interception: This battle last for one cycle of combat only. The defender declares intercepting fighters before any defending AA guns fire. The intercepting fighters attack on a 3 were as the bomber defend on a 1 (2 if superfortresses). The surviving bombers are on the second cycle of combat subjected to any AA fire. Any fighters used in a interceptor role may not also defend in a regular land attack against that same territory on the same turn.

4. Radar Technology
You now have radar technology that facilitate offensive fighter control and accurate antiaircraft artillery direction. Your antiaircraft guns and fighters defense increases to 2 and 5 respectively.

@theduke:

sounds more like air supremacy to me.

Yes Duke, it is air supremacy and I have corrected it now! :wink: But except for the name, what did you think about the rule? It is the rule that I want to discuss. It is very realistic and historical correct. Do you think it is too powerful? If, why do you think so?

Air Supremacy
Fighters can support infantry attacks and artillery defense if no enemy fighters are present. Air supremacy increases your infantry’s attack to 2 or your artillery’s defense to 3. Each infantry or artillery must be matched one-for-one with a supporting fighter.

Super Submarines
The reason why aircraft cannot attack alone submarines – It was the aircraft that proved the greatest nuisance to surfaced submarines. Night-running on the surface even to charge batteries, became prohibitively dangerous and the submarines developed the snort. The snort made the submarines slow since the submarine needed to stay submerged and on station high surface speeds could not be used. Efficiency fell off rapidly. Desperately some submarines carried enhanced AA armament, electing to fight it out on the surface. This suited the aircraft very well, which discourage the practice.

Ultimately the type XXI and XXIII submarine was introduced by Germany. These types of submarines travelled faster underwater than surfaced. The former had a 16-kt submerged speed, underwater fire control and acoustic torpedoes, tuned to home on the fast running propellers. A combination of active and passive sonar enabled them to attack without raising a tell-tale periscope. Fortunately for the Allies the war ended before the type became fully operational.

The sitting duck sub
A submarine is a sitting duck no matter where it goes, unless its in the company of a other naval units. A sub can’t operate autonomously. What good are Super Submarines, Wolf Packs and U-boat Interdiction if any fighter can sink them 50% of the time, or a bomber 66% of the time, without taking a risk. There is no incentive in the game to have submarines.

How to counterbalance?
A technology approach is the easiest and most balanced approach, which would make the Super Submarine development desirable.

Super Submarines
Your submarines are now super submarines. They attack on a 3 and may not be attacked by enemy aircraft when alone or in company with other submarines, unless an enemy ship is present.