I also agree a KJF is very attainable.
And i buy a German bomber r1 95% of my games now. Not only is the threat to allied shipping very useful, but the range is extremely useful as well in swapping russian territory, and still make France your home base. Fighters cannot reach all of the dead zone in eastern europe and make it back to France. I dont SBR with german bombers though, unless im almost ready to crack moscow, they are just too valuable.
@Nix:
but then i can’t gurantee the win in ukraine
Never do ukraine… exposed russia hardware in g1, imho very bad for Russia.
I feel you can live with the results of a failure and still win te game, but it´s different how we all roll.
In dice games, i have been avoiding ukr attack r1 more and more. ll is a different story.
Yeah triplea. I usually don’t know what I am doing a given evening until that evening comes but i can look for you or IM you or something if you want when I am available. Example tonight i may be available but not sure yet. :) Do you do lowluck? I usually play with it on because nothings worse then a 2 hour game ending because of bad luck. However im flexible ;)
I will be on later tongiht. AxisOfEvil tagname so u recognize me. Hope to cya aorund. I have been playing the new version lately though AA50. But im not doen with revised quite yet
@Nix:
Don´t swap.
Await critical mass and force russia to withdraw to moscow, then use germany/japan 1-2 punch.
You do both of these things. You cant pass up the income by not swapping. You also have to leverage the axis advantage in air power. The russians start with 2 planes, the axis powers start with 12 and 2 bombers. Its a war of attrition to crack Moscow. you want the russians to have to use inf in taking back the perimeter terr around moscow. You win much faster when the russians have to use inf on offense rather than defense. Inf are twice as effective on defense then offense!!
This is really good info guys. Thanks a bunch. The ICs were not to be faster then tranies, but rather allow you to build more tanks since you can only transport half tanks on boats. But I may give the no ics till later strat a go since I have been doing factories for so long. I never built above the 3 on J1 like you are suggesting so that could be the difference.
Thanks for the detailed recap on germany air defense of africa Rom! Any comments on the weakened egypt retaliation due to not having the 2 extra units from italy there(since the transport went to the west?).
Also I don’t know what time zone you are in but If either of you are up for a game let me know. I happen to be free most of the morning(central time) tommrow(vacation) which may line up if you live in europe :) Otherwise i usually can only play from like 7:30CST on. Do you play tripleA? thats where i play. i am also CST zone. Yeah, the weaker force in Egypt is a big drawback to moving the med fleet west. UK can usually counter egypt, and deny you alot of income in africa. This is why i always hit egypt hard these days. But its fun to change it up once in awhile.
@Nix:
A strong bid IMHO is a sub to sz7, then wipe sz2 on g1
Ive done this b4 too. Its can cause Uk lots of trouble, taking both of their Battleships r1 is pretty huge.
@Nix:
I can´t Produce 14 uits, and i have no intention in doing so.
If you dont max your production output, then u arent getting the max units to asia as fast as you can. Why would you choose to not use a FREE IC you have in toyko that produces 8 units per round, and instead buy 2 new factories at a cost of 30 ipc, that produce only 6 units per turn max?
Factories saves you 1 round for tanks to get moving, since they are built on land they can move 2 spaces imediatley, if shiped from tokey they are delayed 1 turn, each time.
this is actually opposite as i have demonstrated in a previous post. The factory is 1 round behind the transports. r2 you have bought no land units, but instead 2 factories, where as i have 8 units at the end of round 2 waiting to get to Bury. r3 you are buying your tanks in Machuria, but i am landing mine in Bury, 1 turn ahead of you. And i remain 1 turn ahead of you for the entire game. I also am getting 2 more units a turn to moscow then you.
Another issue, you are building only tanks it sounds like. You need inf on the front against russia, as you will be swapping terr with them for a few rounds. Just like in any swapping situation, you dont want your enemy to be losing inf while you lose tanks. Cuz they would be winning the war of attrition. You need a good number of inf up there by moscow to swap effectively with them.
I have never played against you Axisof Evil, but would be interesting to see how you do it.
Sure id play with ya. I dont play on the forum or PBEM. Do you play TripleA?
Oh a followup question for germany. What shoudl I do differently to prevent the UK landing on UK1 in africa and the US landing on US1. Should i be leaving planes in france to threaten that sea zone? Not move my BS to help with egypt so it can still hit that square?
As romulus said, you have a couple of options to threaten allied landings with Germany. Moving the med fleet west and taking gibraltar is one option that i have used myself in the past. I used to like it alot when it was new to me, however, now i believe its best to hit Egypt as heavy as you can, in order to ensure UK cant counter it, and prevent you from tank blitzing africa for income. The other options about moving the blatic fleet out to sz 7 is good too. But if/when uk hits it, take ur hits on the surfice ships, and submerge your subs in hopes that they survie to hit and landings in sz12. I used this for a time too, but against good players, they can counter this open pretty easily. However, they usually dont land in africa rd1. What I am a REAL big fan of is the Bomber buy r1 with germany. Even without moving ur med fleet west, the bomber buy alone threatens sz 12 rd1 if you satge your fighters correctly. I use my bomber r1 to hit egypt, and a fighter to hit med dd. they land in Linya. I land 4 fighters in france. And place my new omber in berlin. Now i can hit any allied ships in sz 12 with:
5 fighters 1 Bomber va 4 trans 1 BB 1 DD
Calc the odds on this battle and germnay is going to win 100% of the time with an average loss of 3 fighters. 3 fighters is a cost of 30 ipc to the germans, and you prob will replace a few of those however the damage you have done to the allies was far worth it. The allies lost 68 ipc worth of gear. The damage is especially hurtful to UK. You have hit AE hard, and are stealing production from uk. Japan is also stealing production from uk in the pacific. So uk now has to replace the BB u killed, it cant afford another BB, but it NEEDS something to protect any new trans it buys, usually an AC. UK is set back a few turns from this loss! Whcih mean landing are really delayed, and russia is cringing!
I saw in that game replay no BS to pearl harbor, how much do people usually send to pearl?
I can see using the destroyer as a sack, but thats only one so if you don’t wipe them out the first turn you could be looking at loosing a fighter(this is assuming the sub near there is killed by british).Also, for the build max in tokyo strat, are you building half inf half tanks? Every infantry built in japan takes about 5 turns to get to russia. Seems like having the beginig wave of inf at russia on turn 5 is kinda slow, granted your original land units will be there sooner but thats not a huge amount.
Also finally, if your using boats to constantly ship from japan, thast 4 needed, how many more do you guys buy so that you can get all the infantry off the various islands? And if your just ferrying units, what about taking australia, woudl mean you would have to buy atleast 2 more on j2.
Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get as much info as I can :)
Actually, anywhere you put a factory on round 2 is the same distance away from Moscow as toyko is. With trans in sz60, you land units from toyko in Buryatia t1–>Yakut t2–> ENO T3 --> Moscow T4. If you place an IC in Manchurai r2, it is still 4 turns from moscow. Except, you are a turn behind , cuz u cant move units the next round, you have to build them first. If you place in FIC, its the same thing, 4 turns to moscow. So shuttling from toyko is faster, as you lost a turn building factories, annd then building units in asia. Besides being fatser, you also have much MORE units in asia without building the factories. Because the 30 ipc you spent on factories, i spent on troops headed to moscow. I could do a detailed proof that the buying factories approach gets less units to moscow, and is 1 round slower than the shuttling from toyko approach, but i dont have time now. Maybe if i get bored later at work. But you shouldnt need detailed proof to see it.
Comparing the 2 approaches:
r2: you bought no land units – I bought enough to have 4 trans worth of units (8 units).
r3: You are building 6 land unit in asia (3 in machuria; 3 in FIC). Im landing my 8 units in Bury. I already have 2 more units, and I am 1 turn closer to moscow than you.
r4+: Every turn i am making sure to get 8 units form toyko to asia mainland. I can either land in bury, or in FIC, or in both. I sometimes like to do waht i call the weave. Where two trans are in sz60, and 2 trans are in sz36. This way i can land 4 units north and 4 units south every turn. This is way ahead of the factories that only produce 3 units per turn each. So as u can clearly see, i am getting 2 more units to the mainland faster then you can with factory builds. But i WILL put a factory on the mainland with Japan in r4, or r5, or r6. I know its time to buy another factory when my production capacity has increased to the point where I can support building 11 units per turn. The key is you ALWAYS want to maximize your output. 8 from toyko, 3 from a new factory. If you cant afford to buy 11 units per turn, and the units you want to buy, not just inf (i.e. tanks and art), then you arent getting troops to moscow as optimally as you can.
Typically with Japan, i like 6 transports. 4 commited to shuttling, and 2trans to accomplish other goals. like AUS, New zealand, Africa, Brazil. Whatever i feel like taking. And the tranports are more flexible than the ICs. If I see an oppourtinty, i might hit the us, or i might take the units i just landed in FIC, and go to egypt with them. You cant do that with Factories.
As far as pearl goes. I like to hit it heavy. But you can also hit it light if u wish, and not leave any big captial ship there to get killed by a us counter. Depends on how much trouble UK gave you r1. I personally bring 1 AC, 1 DD, 1 SUB, 2 fighters, 1 Bomber when i can.
Hey folks,
I’ve been winning an inordinate amount of games using this opening on the asian front, so curious to debate best counters to it (in case I face it :). Assume no bid for the japanese (thus either no bidding in the game, or a small bid to germany - basically unrelated to the discussion).
Russia ensures 3 tanks in caucausus at end of round 1 and 1 fighter landed in kazakh, 1 in caucausus. Russia moves 6 infantry to buryatia and 2 infantry behind them in whatever that territory is called north of buryatia.
UK does whatever seems best in the atlantic, but ends up with:
- bomber in kazakh, if possible 1 surviving fighter from atlantic landed in w. russia or similar.
- 1 fighter in buryatia with the 6 russian infantry (after helping in sz59)
- 1 carrier and destroyer in SZ 59 (after helping fighter to minimize chance of loss there)
- 1 transport adjacent to french indo china burma (blocking the battleship from SZ59)
- 1 transport on bottom right of australia (unmoved, but having transported 1 inf from n. zealand to make 4 in australia)
- 4 infantry and an ipc in india, 1 infantry in persia, 1 infantry in whatever’s north of s. africa. (germany retains egypt)
- russia moves 3 infantry into sinkiang
- other uk builds situational.
What would the ideal detailed japanese response be and why? I realize the simplest response might be “this is why japan/germany need bidding,” but let’s at least assume a small ipc bid on japan’s side at best.
well you want a japan counter? First off, i have seen a russian bury stack with 2 fighters, 1 russian and 1 British. Japan chooses not to engage the US at pearl. japan pours all it can into bury in order to kill red inf and the plane. Japan also kill China. Did you say UK bought an indian IC? Well r1, FIC is empty, so UK will take it r2. It ok, the russian inf was worth it. Now japans focuses everything at the Indian IC. If the usa focuses in the pacific, then japan is going to be bottled up. Not much you can do to counter. Do you use this opening as a full fledged KJF?
But regardless if you KJF with this opening or not, there doesnt necessarily have to be a great counter for it by Japan. As you now have a beast in Germany. Germany has tanks in Egypt after r1, so with no opposition, they have blitzed thru africa and soon are producing at 50+. The terr above bury is yakut. And u have 2 red inf and 3 red tanks there. So in all, u have removed 8 inf and 3 tanks from the german front. Any decent german player will make BIG gains on the Eastern Front in this case. And cauc can fall pretty quickly.
Thanks for the info. BTW i usually get a 8 ipc bid and I put 1 tank and 1 inf in africa. Is this what other people are donig?
Yes, this is the most common bid placement. Some will use it for an extra tran in the med. Soe will put 1 tank in africa, and 1 inf in europe. I like my bid to go to africa
@Nix:
taking a look at the posted game, japan bought exactly 0 land units in the first 2 rounds. This is not nearly optimal. Japan also falied to spend 6 ipc on r1, and 9 ipc on r2. Again, not very otpimal. japans production in this game is at 42 ipc r3, thats pretty fast gains. Allies must have offered no resistence what so ever. Can’t often hope for that. Usually, UK can at least counter India and take it back. But even at 42 production level, this affords japan nothing but 14 infantry per turn in order to maximize it production ability with the 2 new factories (3 factories - 14 unit production max). You cant buy tanks and art. Well u CAN, but then you are not getting as much land units to asia as you possibly can. And that is the ENTIRE goal. To get as many land units to moscow as fast as possible. You missed the chance to buy land units the first 2 rounds in your example. round 3 you can finally buy land units, but only inf, and this restricts you from buying any more trans now. this mean, that while you are htting AUS and new zealand, you arent using those trans shipping units from toyko. Big mistake. SUB optimal strategy IMO. I woudln’t recommend it to a new player
@Nix:
But in my opinion you need to expand quickly with japan, meaning build 3 trn´s J1 factories j2. use trns to get moving.
Please explain how you can effectively buy 2 factories on Japan 2, and also prodcue 14 land units? This is very ineffective way to get moving as you put it.
Nobody is in disagreement that Japan has to expand quickly. The question is, what the most effective way to do so. Its going to be several rounds before you can even produce 14 land units (unless u buy all inf), so why choose to build a factory instead of land units in the early round? This does NOT get land units to moscwo faster, but it does the exact opposite, it slows you down.
Havent played a game with tech yet, but i think heavy bombers with germany would be devastating. I am already buying alot of bombers with germany in these games. the 12 ipc price tag is tasty, and having 4 bombers in germany is pretty tough on allied shipping. Add heavy bombers to that? now ur talking baby.
Well first off, an axis bid might be in order. Typically 8-9 ipc bid to even the game out.
a few comments on the moves you make. Africa is important. But once it is obvious that the effort is futile, you need to stop pumping dollars into with Germany. the simply fact is, if the Aliies commit to africa, you can’t stop them. It is really important to hit AE hard in r1, so you can tank blitz the dark continent early. The early boost to German income gets more units toward moscow. As far as the art buys. Im not a big fan of art. They are good in some spots, like you have 1 ipc left over. Or you have been making defensive builds with inf, have a big stack, and now are looking to go on the offense, such as with russia. With the germans, being able to position a large stack of tanks quickly to where they need to go is vital. Artillery have to be marched and positioned, tanks are much more flexible, so Id say ease up on art and buy more tanks.
Your japan start is severely slowing them down, and is probably the biggest reason you arent getting the required pressure on russia. You spend 30 ipc, for 2 factories round 2? This means you have bought no land units r2. This is certainly a very sub-optimal way to get land units to asia quickly. You are not alone though, i see this way too often, and I cringe everytime. Your job as japan is to get as many units in asia as quickly as possible. you start with two trans and 1 IC which produces 8 units per turn. 1 tran usually is killed by the brits, so effectively you start the game with 1 tran. BEFORE buying any factories, you need to maximize the Factory you already have. Maximum output from tokyo is 8 land units. You need to be getting 8 land units to asia every turn as fast as possible. The 3 tran buy r1 is optimal for that. I like to buy extra trans over the 4 required to shuck land units in order to do the things you have described. Take AUS, clear islands of inf, mess around in africa. However, none of these objectives should steal maximum production from toyko if it can be helped. Same goes with buying a factory. I wont disrupt my maximum output from toyko to buy a factory. I will buy one when i am making enough income to afford it. You also have to make sure you can optimally produce 11 land units a turn to buy one factory. When you buy 2 factories, you have to make sure you can optimally produce 14 units per turn before buying the second one. There is no way you can do this on round 2. So you have severely slowed yourself down by putting the cart before the horse.
Id also appreciate a response from a moderator who yanked my posts. You would think i would have gotten a message or something about what line I crossed, or protocol I broke.
:oops:
Karma +1 for AxisOfEvil and Woodstok! :-)
I have only tried to give my contribution!
Note: I have edited my post to solve some grammar errors i found (debug) … now I have “released” the version 1.1 of it… :-D
Anyone could contribute to improve the quality of my posts. Thanks in advance!!! :)
Thanks for the Karma. But apparently the powers that be didnt appreciate my post as you have. Jen must have some pull. You call out her flaming of a product like TripleA as unreasonable, and then your post get yanked. Funny.
What’s this? An agreement has been reached, and the whole heated debate was a simple misunderstanding? I thought it was quite clear we were commenting on Japan buying bombers r1, and russia and the allies responding r2. :?
Anyway, as far as the game that proves the theory, dont know how germany captured Caucus r3. Bad dice? russian errors? This can happen I guess if the Russian player over-extends themselves, like in a Russian triple attack r1. But typically, things have had to go real wrong for germany to have sacked Cauc r3.
@Cmdr:
Actually, I have only commented on your reading and demonstrated understanding of the situation. You have resorted to flames, flame-baiting and malicious attacks.
Anyway, you have yet to sufficiently inform the gaming community how you are both placing your AA Guns out in traded territories AND manage not to lose them to the enemy without costs in excess of just taking the damage from attacking bombers that survive your defended AA Guns.
You see, you have completely failed to realize that the counter to your counter was already placed. The counter is that the axis can afford to lose 8 IPC per territory but Russia cannot afford to lose 8 IPC per territory. (This assumes you attack with Infantry/Armor and win with Armor on both sides.)
As an Axis member earning 30-45 IPC per turn, I’ll gladly trade you 8 IPC a round. Especially multiple times in one round of game play! (-8 Kazakh, -8 Novosibirsk and -8 in any other territory you decide to put an AA Gun in.) Hell, I don’t even need to bomb you then! Now I can use my bombers on England and America since you are already bleeding yourself dry of units for your own defense!
Of course, you could chose NOT to attack after I capture your AA Guns, but as I said, then it’s a simple matter to just walk the guns away.
In other words, THERE IS NO VIABLE METHOD OF RUSSIA DEFENDING ITSELF WITH ALL THOSE AA GUNS! You only end up guaranteeing that you will lose 16+ IPC a round in units, instead of 12 IPC + and that’s only on that one front! That’s not including the other front, but that’s because I assume you want to get those guns back, not liberate EVERYTHING that you lost in the previous round! (I assume you leave that to your allies to at least stop some of the blood loss!)
Russia - 16 IPC from trading Kazakh/Novosibirsk - 12 IPC from Germany’s SBRs of Russia/Caucasus = Total -28 IPC per round. Income: 27 IPC or less, probably less. Net: -1+ IPC a round.
Japan - 16 IPC from trading Kazakh/Novosibirsk.
Income: 45 IPC give or take. Net: +29 IPC a roundGermany - Normal trading about equivalent between her and the allies (Karelia, Belorussia and Ukraine, possibly Arkhangelsk if Germany stacked Karelia Round 1.)
Income: 40-50 IPC give or take. Net: +40-50 IPCGermany + Japan: Up at least 70 IPC a round
Russia: Down at least 1 IPC a round.Net Difference: 71 or more IPC in favor of the Axis.
Of course, that assumes that round 3 when you buy those AA Guns (and start moving extras from America/England to help) you don’t end up with Germany and a large stack of Germans and Japanese fighters in W. Russia before Russia 4.
amazing, you do it again. A full page summary of how trading terr with aa guns is bad for russia. When i explicitly said i would not be trading terr with aa guns. But great points!!
Lol. this arguement is over. Jen has already claimed complete, and utter proof of her arguements. And with logic like, Russia has no ability to pull in aa guns when they see a territory will be taken, how can you argue with her.
Maybe her point of reference comes from the players she plays with. Players that will leave a territory they cant defend completely empty, except for this shiny aa gun they bought for her. Players that can’t figure out how to land allied units in europe. Why even worry about a russian strat Jen, if you have a fool proof way of preventing the allies from getting to europe, the game is already won!!
Anyway. not worth wasting anymore energy.