@Sankt:

@axis_roll:

You are admittedly relatively new to the game, so have some faith in the veterans of this game.  Dice b*ing is common in this game… and I admit there are times when no matter what you do, the dice will not let you win.

If this invariability is still too much for you to deal (with your chess background), I would suggest you either play Low Luck games or some other variant that relies more on strategy rather than dice roll…

Haha, you are wonderfully arrogant! I know I’m relatively new to the game, but winning that doubles tournament has got to count for something? And getting to the bronze final in last year’s singles? (Though I withdrew prior to the match)

Regretfully I have no chess background and I dislike LowLuck in its current form. Something called MediumLuck or something would be more my thing, but I’m settled with luck being a big part of the game. 90% to be precise!  :-D

My apologies, I confused you with the originator of this thread Johnny.

@Sankt:

@OutsideLime:

Luck goes both ways.  If you give up because things don’t go perfectly your way in round 1, that’s going to be an awfully short game every time, especially if your opponent feels the same way.  One of you is likely to feel that their battles were less than optimum in round 1…

So then you agree luck is a deciding factor.

90% luck, 10% skill.

Sure, ANY game that involves dice affecting the outcome has an element of luck (or more realistically speaking, results outside 2 standard deviations)

I do NOT agree it’s 90% luck though.  Among players of even skill/experience level (is that even possible?), I would say perhaps 60% luck, 40% skill.

You need to properly:
1).  Anticipate disaster:  CONTINGENCIES!  Don’t leave your air force out to dry if the 4% outcome occurs.
2).  Alter your game plan to react to the dice: Be FLEXIBLE and think a bit out of the box when the dice do not cooperate.
                This works BOTH ways:  taking advantage of the good dice as well as covering the bad dice.

You are admittedly relatively new to the game, so have some faith in the veterans of this game.  Dice b*ing is common in this game… and I admit there are times when no matter what you do, the dice will not let you win.

If this invariability is still too much for you to deal (with your chess background), I would suggest you either play Low Luck games or some other variant that relies more on strategy rather than dice roll…

Like A&ARe (Enhanced).  See: http://boards.avalonhill.com/showthread.php?t=15339  if interested.

@Sankt:

If either one or both fails do you really think you are going to win over a skilled opponent? Hate to break it to you, you’re going to lose.

I can not say I agree with you 100%.

Are the odds now stacked against you?  Certainly.

Is a loss inevitable… not necessarily so.

What goes around comes around, and the same is true for the dice.

You could get yourself into a position where another battle with about even odds leans greatly towards your side and now the game is back to even.  If you get behind, you should play differently, inviting a bit more risk into your moves…to give the dice a chance to come back to you.  You can do this as a general move or to set-up one big battle gambit.

In our face-to-face games, we play a version of Low Luck called a dice average.  “like” units can take their average hits, rolling any odd extras.  for example, I have 6 inf and 5 tanks attacking.  I can request a dice average and get 3 hits (1 for inf, 2 for tanks) and roll 1 die @3 for the odd tank.  The same works on defense.  Each country can take 1 dice average battle per turn.

To offset this exact guranteed results/outcome, we allow an opponent 3 ‘must roll’ cards (and you get one additional card every 4 rounds, starting in round 6). They work in this fashion:

Let’s say I have 9 Russia inf in ukraine. Germany has ample units to do a hit and run: 6 inf, 14 tanks.

LL would say: 8 hits on offense, 3 hits on defense.

Germany would w/d, gaining 5 inf in the exchange at no risk. In our face to face games, I could play a ‘must roll’ card and force germany to risk the chance of getting stuck if they roll more than 8 hits round 1.

There are no guarentees in war. These must roll cards eliminate this problem with LL.

@froodster:

Mostly it’s the tactical value of the speed that makes Armor much more useful than Artillery.

Which is why artillery can be so good for Russia.  Let the Germans get close and then … wham.

Go Bears… Superbowl bound!

How different 2nd edition and Revised rules are is subjective (how does one measure that?)

IMHO, I would’ve call them 100% distinct games.

I must not be the only one who thinks so as the game was released as Axis & Allies “REVISED”
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/revised

Generally that term means to alter/improve something.

The new release is a better game… but it’s not so different from previous versions to call it distinct.  Again, we’d argue subjective interpretations…

My ‘adding movement’ statement was based on my line of thinking that Revised was an improved version of ‘Classic’.  It is these rule difference that were the basis for my observation.

@ncscswitch:

LHTR prevents the FIG from moving AFTER the “place new units” phase, when a FIG would miraculously move from say Berlin to the Baltic Sea after all other movement is completed, placements are completed, and just prior to collect income.

With LHTR the FIG ends up on the new AC in the same SZ that the FIG occupies at the end of NCM.

LHTR does not allow for miraculous post-placement movement of a FIG from one territory to another, OOB does allow for such miraculous movement.

Have you played A&A before Revised was released?

@ncscswitch:

The FIG so “hovering” does not change territories or sea zones as it would under OOB.

Thus it only has 4 territories of movement, period.

Where’s the hammer to hit you on the head….

You could NEVER do this ‘hovering’ prior to the revised rule that you can place fighters on newly built carriers.  Correct?

It was not a legal combat move until Revised, correct?
fighters had (and still have) a range of 4 movement before Revised, correct?

Now this

Perfect example:  US IC in Norway, USA has ftrs in Eastern USA.  German navy is sitting in SZ3… USA can use these two fighters in Eastern USA to attack the German navy IF they buy an a/c on their turn.

is legal in Revised, correct?

How do you explain this now being a legal move?  The only way I can think to explain it is that the ftr now has greater range.  range is defined via movement capability.

Does my logic make sense.  I am trying to understand your thinking in the same fashion as I am trying to get you see how I percieve this difference in Revised.

IS a legal move in revised,

@Sankt:

You do not disagree with me, try reading it again. In hindsight I see I probably didn’t come out as clear as I thought and wanted to be. I meant that any OTHER armor than the one moving in CMP could blitz through to a friendly territory.

Yep, you talked about 1 tank, and assumed we knew you meant other tanks could NCM through karelia to norway… but then (if you want to get technical), that’s not blitzing, that’s non-combat movement.

@ncscswitch:

OK…  We need to put this to bed.

In OOB, the FIG had to make it to the IC.  It had its full 4 movement to reach that IC.  Then, when the AC was built, the FIG mvoed again from the IC territory to the adjacent SZ, thus the potential for 5 movement.

In LHTR, the FIG has its 4 movement, and has to end in the SZS where the AC is being built.  No further movement by the FIG is made, it just lands once the AC is dropped.

So OOB allows for a possible 5 movement, LHTR does not.

LHTR allows a ftr to hang in the air (and not land during NCM)

OOB does not.

If you do not want to call the lifting of the rule requiring a plane to land in NCM “giving a plane an extra movement”, what should we call it then?

@squirecam:

@axis_roll:

@squirecam:

@Jennifer:

LHTR did the move fighters to the sea zone the carrier would be in (new or old) to stop artificially extending fighter range, I believe.

That was the result, but not the actual reason. You could read the thread in the AH forum for clues, but I’m to tired to rehash it now…

Squirecam

The main reason LHTR altered the OOB ftr~landing~on~new~carrier rules was to clarifiy movement rules.

OOB makes planes land at the IC of the new carrier being placed… THEN the planes move onto the carrier once it was placed.  That would be movement during mobolize units phase.  YUCK… so said the LHTR rules committee.

And…actually allowing fighters to hover above a SZ awaiting a new carrier to land upon (as per LHTR) EXTENDS their range.

Please do not alter history. I was there, as were you.

There was not going to BE any fighter/carrier rule. The “LHTR committee” did not say “yuck”. The committee eliminated the rule. It was only after a howl of protest that “the committee” realized the new rule would not satisfy us.

However, instead of leaving the rule the way it was written by mike, the new “movement” excuse was given for a change…which really did not change anything.

The old rule really was not confusing, It did not “add movement”, in that any German fighter which could have landed at the IC just now “lands” in the sea zone.

95% of the job the rules committe did was excellent. This part was poorly planned, executed, and botched.

I was not on the LTHR comittee.
I was told (or read somewhere) this rule was to clear up movement discrepancies.
That is why I posted such.  If my information about the rules committee’s reason were wrong, I apologize.

I want to further discuss the ‘adding an extra move’ that people are telling me is incorrect.

When a piece gets an additional move (during a different phase), yes, you are altering it’s range, there for, you are giving it an extra movement.

Here is a perfect example for OOB rules. I’ve already demonstrated how the placement of fighters in newly built carriers extends the range of fts in LHTR.

Germany has a ftr in Libya which does combat into sz 16 (2 moves).  Germany buys a carrier on it’s turn.  The ftr lands in Germany  (2 moves).  During mobilize units, this ftr can MOVE 1 more space onto the newly built carrier.  This ftr has now moved 5 spaces on it’s turn, has it not?  P

Please clarify how this does not demostrate an extra movement.

@frimmel:

Well, in your scenario the FTR has still only gone four spaces. No extra. Different spaces than in OOB rules to be sure but still only four spaces.  :-)

You could never “Hover” in an empty sea zone at the end of combat before … not EVEN IN OOB rules… you were required to have a landing zone: either move 1 to a piece of land or get on a carier (at a cost of no movement points).

yes, this DOES add +1 to the range of a fighter.  OOB never allowed the hover.

@Sankt:

As soon as you finish CMP you can blitz through Karelia as long as you are not entering hostile territories. You can in other words not blitz to the enemy controlled Archangel, but you could send arms from Norway to W.russia if it is controlled by Germany/Japan.

I do not think so.  That would be an NCM … units moved in combat movement can not move in non-combat (except planes).

If there was no AA in karelia (or enemy units) you could do this blitz through and into Norway… because that is all done during combat movement.

@frimmel:

LHTR does not extend their range. A FTR starting in GER can not under LHTR fight in SZ 14 (SEU) and be placed on a new Baltic AC in SZ5 while in OOB rules it can. It is four moves out of Germany and back to Germany but five out of Germany back to the Baltic SZ.

BOTH rules sets give a plane an additional move

The key is WHEN does this happen.

It is more key (IMHO) to be able to leave a ftr hovering after they have done combat then to get an extra move getting re-deployed onto a newly built carrrier.

Perfect example:  US IC in Norway, USA has ftrs in Eastern USA.  German navy is sitting in SZ3… USA can use these two fighters in Eastern USA to attack the German navy IF they buy an a/c on their turn.  This can be huge (for both sides!)

for which side?

@djensen:

@LHTR1.3:

Tanks and Blitzing
A tank can “blitz” by moving through an unoccupied hostile territory as the first part of a move that can end in a friendly or hostile territory. The complete move must occur during the combat move phase. It establishes control of the first territory (place one of your control markers there) before it moves to the next.

Remember to adjust the national production levels as you blitz. A tank that encounters enemy units in the first territory it enters must stop there, even if the unit is an antiaircraft gun or industrial complex.

The end of the first paragraph implies that you only place the control marker when you move onto the next territory. The second paragraph states that you must stop at an AA gun. The question is since you do not move on, do you not place a control marker?

How do you move through an enemy territory without gaining control of it unless oyu are a plane?

I think you’re picking nits here… use common sense.

Answering your original questions.  The tank controls Karelia, so you now own a AA that was left behind.  This control occurs during combat resolution, so any planes flying over karelia during combat movement would be subjected to the russian aa gun shots.

@squirecam:

@Jennifer:

LHTR did the move fighters to the sea zone the carrier would be in (new or old) to stop artificially extending fighter range, I believe.

That was the result, but not the actual reason. You could read the thread in the AH forum for clues, but I’m to tired to rehash it now…

Squirecam

The main reason LHTR altered the OOB ftr~landing~on~new~carrier rules was to clarifiy movement rules.

OOB makes planes land at the IC of the new carrier being placed… THEN the planes move onto the carrier once it was placed.  That would be movement during mobolize units phase.  YUCK… so said the LHTR rules committee.

And…actually allowing fighters to hover above a SZ awaiting a new carrier to land upon (as per LHTR) EXTENDS their range.

Does that help Germany TOO much?  Now the German BB can go into SZ13 (not needed in SZ15) after the UK BB
I think no UK DD makes the battle of the Med too easy for Germany…

What is PBF?  I know PBEM is Play By Email…
I can’t fathom a guess for the “F” in PBF.  :?