@vodot said in axis_roll vs. Argothair (AA50 Balanced Mod playtest):
I confess, looking at those two maps back-to-back I mostly thought to myself “man, @axis_roll is good at Axis and Allies.”
AA50 is my game of choice :)
+1 for side-swappage.
That will probably be next game, when I am the allies
Also, @Argothair/someone, can you remind me where that SA factory came from? Was that a bid or UK1 buy?
The UK IC in South Africa was a UK turn 1 buy.
I like this idea allot. I think your secondary ideas (bullets 1 thru 4) are good starting additonal thoughts at this point until you’ve tried to play a few games with the initial ideas/concept to see if the Colonial Outpost is too strong for the Allies or not enough help for the Allies.
I surmise that just the CO might not be enough for the allies, though.
So to your point about the CO as part of a bid, I propose that the side that has the advantage (in AA50, the Axis) bid progressively larger amounts to give the weaker side (Allies in AA50) to have the ‘stronger’ side. For example, I will take the Axis and give the Allies $10 (in bid units or IPCs). Opposing player may believe he can still win with the Axis giving up more than $10 IPCs, so he says he will take the Axis and give the Allies $15 (in bid units or IPCs). This goes back and forth until the Allied play accepts the extra units.
Instead of starting at $1 IPC and bidding higher, the starting bid for the Axis is the Colonial Outpost (as described aboove). Now the opposing player can bid for the Axis giving the CO + $3 IPCs… on so on.
So, should standard bid placement restrictions would be in play (like 1 unit per TT?) I believe you should be able to put one unit with the CO complex.
@vodot said in [Various] The Colonial Outpost (an enhanced Allied IC bid):
The four setups I want to evaluate for this rule are 42.2, 42.2TR, Anniversary '41, and Anniversary '42. For starters, for each of these setups, I want to look at a few obvious destinations for the OC (India, Australia, Egypt, SA, Hawaii, and SFE), and for each examine the strongest possible Axis response on turns 1-5, compared to Allied reinforcement potential. The result will be a table I’ll post below as I test. You veterans, are there other locations you think are worth checking for the first round of tests?
I can only speak strongly of AA50-41, that is what we mostly play.
Two others on your list might be a USA colonial outpost in brazil. Also, If russian were going to pressure Japan, I think a bryatia IC might be better than the SFE listed. USA can support with fighters off SZ56 based carriers.
BRY is more positionally valued than SFE.
Other comments on current list (ordered in highest to least valuable):
India. Best all around, will need initial help from russia to sustain
Egypt. Can you hold it round 1? if so, very key as well
South Africa. Good, solid way to fight the Africa Korps and hold onto UK IPCs. Will the axis commit that much to africa?
Australia. To use most effectively, USA needs a fleet to back up small UK navy that would help to take back UK islands
Hawaii. Don’t see too much advantage to a 2-unit producing 1 sea zone forward naval base.
Soviet Far East. might be acceptable since farther away from Japan mainland
@Argothair Any update(s) on these rules? Have you play tested them any further or switched to a different new shiny object to keep your attention? :relaxed: :relaxed:
You know I mean that in a good way, as you like your novelty over the “same-old, same-old”
It’s interesting to see what is focused on during the several hours over two episodes. Several times, the macro level story glossed over the details or showed them incorrectly. For example, they said in 9 minutes, USA sank 4 carriers in the battle of Midway. Not true…
What’s interesting is that the latest generation (even my own daughter, aged 28) knows little about WWII, let alone the great war before that one. I mean, WWII ended almost 75 years ago, and this becomes more and more ‘a thing of the past’.
@Panther said in axis_roll vs. Argothair (AA50 Balanced Mod playtest):
@Argothair
Back in those days of ABattleMap :smile:
What do these things have in common?
battlemap, axis_roll’s computer, Original A&A 50th Edition & axis_roll for that matter!
They’re all old, but still are functional!
That’s how us old gamers roll, Panther :)
I guess I was looking at how much the allies can make, somewhat easily IMHO, in Europe. When they do this, they will also be eliminating the Axis NOs. Of course, this is just my initial take on a single read basis, and I figured you’ve put some thought into this more than I have, so I am probably missing some points (as you indicate). I need to think further about this before more commenting, and yes, game play is the only way to truly see how good ANY rule modification(s) is/are.
Things I haven’t thought about: No allied bid. Surely that will affect things early. Not being a big fan of the OOB tech, I would prefer no tech here, but do you have a preference. Some house rules are better when techs are in play, some are worse…
@Taewakan said in Russian kills German Fleet Turn 1?:
Why not sent a Russian Fighter and Bomber to take out the German Fleet on Turn 1 in the Anniversary 42 scenario. It is a 3-4 vs a 2-3. Seems like good odds to me.
You can also send a russian bomber on the Germany sz13 fleet of a Destroyer and transport. A “4” on a “2”.
@Argothair said in axis_roll vs. Argothair (AA50 Balanced Mod playtest):
Germany took the unusual step of building a Mediterranean aircraft carrier, which has created a variety of interesting threats in the Atlantic and given Russia a bit of breathing room.
Hmm. Let me know how Russia’s breathing room is after this German turn
:dark_sunglasses: :muscle:
@Argothair "For example, on turn 3, if the USA is playing with average skill and average luck, how many IPCs of NOs should they be earning if they go heavy into Europe? heavy into the Pacific? balanced in both theaters? "
I agree with having the USA be balanced, I thought I answered your “How many IPCs…?” with my post that tried to summarize the fluid NO list. (easily +$20, so $60 IPCs !)
There is only 2 NOs for ATO for USA. Much more in the Pacific (which is what is needed/wanted). We’re going to have to play some games with some initial figures to see if we’re heading in the right direction or we will {continue to} go in circles.
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One last thought, You don’t want to necessarily <overly> reward what would be a typical good move. For example, the Allies almost always conduct the Operation Torch landings into Africa, but USA is getting $5 for doing this solid move.
It could work well. What if…you drop the preconditions? Pick any Allied territory; its new value is 3 IPCs, and it gets an AA gun and factory.
Is there a downside? Is it abusable? The most unrealistic / overpowered choice I can think of is Sudan…but the UK mustered and organized thousands of troops from Yemen, Qatar, Jordan, Kenya, etc. at Port Sudan before sending them north to Cairo and Tobruk.
Don’t automatically make it a 3 IPC TT, just make it +1 to a max value of 3. so a 1 IPC TT like Sudan would only become 2, producing 2 units. This would help control an overpowering Sudan. Although Japan can muster a J2 attack of 4 inf, art, tank, 2 ftr, cruiser on Sudan if they wanted.
Game 2 with axis_roll as the allies just entered round 6. UK’s initial pressure on the med fleet worked well, Germany has not been able to get enough pressure on Russia. With China’s strong resistance (strong dice casualties inflicted on Japan), Japan has been a bit slow putting back door pressure on Russia. USA has been doing an ok job keeping Japan occupied, while helping out in africa just enough and in Norway with an IC. This is the end of Russia 6.
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@Argothair "Well, accurately interpreting comments on the Internet is hard! "
HA! true dat. These are your proposals and you should have the final say once you consider other comments/perspectives. I have no problem with different NO’s having different values, that is the beauty of the construct, it’s flexibility!
Once a better finalized list has been generated, I do want to kick the tires on these NO’s via a game. Probably after Christmas time I should have some time to start that. Not to stray too far off topic, but do you envision these being the only changes to the OOB rules? E.G. No bid needed. Tech off too? (ugh to non-directed tech). Dice average
@taamvan said in Operation Sea Lion - Is it possible for 1941?:
The 1941 setup is really busted. …we got to a 20+ bid for Axis (still a complete blowout for the allies with 8-9 german planes on the board ie dark skies) and then gave up and went back to other versions and setups
Sorry, I am confused, Are you saying you have to give the AXIS $20 IPC’s to have a chance in the 1941 bid set-up?
@DoManMacgee said in 1940 vs anniversary balance:
However, far more work has gone into developing G40 into its current state than has gone into AA50. AA50 is balanced by the community simply by adding bids for the Allies (varying by scenario and whether you play with NOs turned on/off).
The ‘community’ may have gone the route of bids, but our Chicago players group has developed a whole set of house rules akin to the AARe (Enhanced) rules for AAR (revised).
In order to not hijack this thread any further, PM me if interested in getting a copy of the “Chicago Rules” for AA50-41. These rules are 8+ years in the making.
@CWO-Marc said in [Various] The Colonial Outpost (an enhanced Allied IC bid):
In one sense, this is all just a picky point of terminology, so it can easily be discounted.
Sure, the name can be changed, it’s merely a tag on the free IC concept.
@CWO-Marc said in [Various] The Colonial Outpost (an enhanced Allied IC bid):
But I’m wondering if a two-birds-with-one-stone solution might be to tweak the concept slightly – maybe by specifying in more detail which power can make this change to which territories, and maybe even by splitting the concept into slight variants with slightly different names, depending on which of the scenario types I’ve described above are (and are not) being envisioned.
Why do that now? Try it out as laid out, see what may need to be reigned in if it seems too strong. Tweaking of a house rule is best accomplished by game play testing.
@Plantageneto said in Operation See lion:
I’m new player and I have a doubt. Looking the 1941 setup, it’s seem too easy, in my opinion , for the Germany attempting England invasion at the first turn. Just a destroyer in sea and few units, if you calculate the punch is a 50/50
Not sure how you came up with those figures, or what you consider to be an ‘EASY’ victory, running this in dice sim, the BEST outcome I got was an 8% chance:
@Topmat said in Repairing a Battleship?:
@Soviet-Steamroller I know what you mean. Having a huge fleet and then losing to a few subs is very depressing.
Having subs (low cost) in your own fleet can shield your carriers. Just have at least one DD in that mix so attacking subs don’t get the opening fire capability.
So @Argothair, this is the list we’re using to game play test?
GERMANY
Scandinavian Iron – 5 IPCs if Axis control 2+ of: Norway, Finland, and NW Europe
Eurasian Wheat – 5 IPCs if Axis control 2+ of: Karelia, Ukraine, Caucasus
Archangel-Astrakhan Line – 5 IPCs if Axis control 2+ of: Archangel, Moscow, and Kazakh
RUSSIA
Northern Lend-Lease – 3 IPCs after the start of turn 3 if Allies control Archangel with no Axis ships in SZ 3 or 4
Southern Lend-Lease – 3 IPCs after the start of turn 3 if Allies control Persia & Caucasus w/ no Axis ships in SZ 34
Eastern Lend-Lease – 3 IPCs after the start of turn 3 if Allies control SFE & Yakutsk w/ no Axis ships in SZ 63
JAPAN
Chinese Coastline – 3 IPCs if Axis control Manchuria, Kiangsu, Fukien, Kwantung, and French Indochina
Chinese Hegemony – 3 IPCs if Axis control literally all Chinese territories
Bornese Oil – 3 IPCs if Axis control Borneo and no Allied warships anywhere in SZ 49, 50, 60, 61, or 62
Javanese Rubber – 3 IPCs if Axis control East Indies and no Allied warships anywhere in SZ 38, 49, 50, 60, 61, or 62
Central Pacific Islands – 3 IPCs if Axis control 4+ of Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Midway, Wake, Carolines, Hawaii
Co-Prosperity Sphere – 3 IPCs if Axis control 2+ of India, Australia, Hawaii, Yakut SSR
UK
North Atlantic – 3 IPCs if Allies control E. Canada, Greenland, and Iceland with no Axis ships in SZs 1 through 9.
Mediterranean Route – 3 IPCs if Allies control Gibraltar and Egypt with no Axis warships in SZ 13, 14, or 15.
Soft Underbelly – 3 IPCs if UK has at least one land unit in Italy and/or the Balkans.
Indian Empire – 3 IPCs if Allies control India, Madagascar, and South Africa with no Axis ships in SZs 28 through 35.
ANZAC – 3 IPCs if Allies control Australia, New Zealand, New Guinea, and the Solomon Islands.
ITALY
Vichy Collaboration – 3 IPCs if Axis control France, Morocco, and Libya
Mare Nostrum – 3 IPCs if there are no Allied ships in SZ 13, 14, or 15
Abyssinian Adventure – 3 IPCs if Axis control 2+ of Sudan, Italian East Africa, Rhodesia
Mideastern Oil – 5 IPCs if Axis control 2+ of Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Persia, Caucasus
USA
Arsenal of Democracy – 5 IPCs after the start of turn 3 if Allies control Western US, Central US, and Eastern US
Manifest Destiny – 5 IPCs after the start of turn 3 if Allies control Mexico, Panama, Hawaii, and Alaska
South Atlantic – 2 IPCs if Allies control West Indies and Brazil with no Axis warships in SZ 10, 11, 12, 17, 18, or 19
Operation Torch – 3 IPCs if USA has land units in both Morocco and Libya
Operation Overlord – 5 IPCs if USA has land units both NW Europe and France
Central Pacific Islands – 3 IPCs if Allies control 4+ of Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Midway, Wake, Carolines, Hawaii
Alcor Aluminum – 2 IPCs if Allies control Australia, Solomon Islands, Hawaii, and Western US
MacArthur was a Donkey – 5 IPCs if Allies control the Philippines
West Pacific Airstrips – 5 IPCs if Allies control 3+ of Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Formosa, Manchuria, Buryatia
CHINA
Burma Road – +1 Chinese artillery for any Chinese-owned territory if Allies control India, Burma, and Yunnan
** Setup Change – Sikang starts the game with 1 infantry, 1 fighter. Yunnan starts with (only) 2 infantry.
** Rules Change – Chinese troops may move into Burma, French Indochina, and/or Kwangtung.
(Plus the interceptor mod you suggested, no tech)
If so, do you have a side you prefer to play? I will go with either one. One last question… Low Luck or pure luck for battle outcome?
Once we decide these, then I can start to strategize more seriously and then we can arrange a date to start.
If the proper situation allows for the UK India complex, you can sustain it, but it is costly, and only if the following things happen:
1). Germany does not attack Egypt G1. You’ll need the tank and ftr to help hold india.
2). Russia can afford the infanctry to help support India through Persia. 6 inf can be pushed south R1, and moved into Egypt IF UK decides on their turn 1 to invest in the IC. A tank purchase in Caucasus is helpful as well, if possible
3). Japan does not move all/most of their forces into burma/FIC.
I would say the best Axis moves for a no-bid AA50-41 scenario is to squeeze the middle, this involves a G1 attack on Egypt (some will advocate to wait till G2), and a strong Japanese move to south east asia, especially seeing a huge Russian Persia build up. If this happens, you probably will not want to buy the Indian IC UK1. You can always move the Russian persia force home if needed or to be cheap fodder to try and hold India, making Japanese expend some more infantry (long supply lines) to take India J2, while UK units in Persia (having withdrawn on UK1) can be set to take back Indian UK2.