Posts made by Afrikakorps

So yes Russia will lose a lot of territory, I am planning on it, especially in the South. However I will keep Leningrad and surroundings and will keep making a healthy 40-45 until I get to Scandinavia + Africa. Then it becomes a monster able to overpower Germany on its own.

@Requester45:

Yes but you have to account for the loss of territories throughout time, as well as the ability to lose some of those bonuses like sz125. I don’t think Russian IPC income can become a monster. It is difficult for Russia to obtain some of these, and it would take some time to grab the Mediterranean and African territories for the bonuses. You also have to think about the amount of resources it would take for Russia to obtain all of the bonuses that you listed. How would you plan on gaining this very large amount of IPCs?

I think only the Scandinavian is the difficult one actually.

Iraq + Africa + Island is simple.
Take Iraq R3, one tank will go to Libya, one mech to Somaliland
Take Libya + Somaliland R5
Get tank + mech in 2 USA transports R6
Unload at the islands in R7 and collect bonus

Siberia NO, keep the 18 at Buryatia

SZ125, let the UK fight for this one with destroyers. Use your own sub first. Not too impossible.

Scandinavia needs most planning and effort, but when you keep Novgorod and USA bombers destroys Baltic fleet, it is realistic and possible.

So actually just 1 tank + 1 mech for 17 IPC south
UK help for S125 so free for 5 IPC
Combine Russia and USA effort for 11 IPC scandinavia

I also like to share my view on Russian economy, to support why I am so positive Russia can become most exciting nation to play instead of most boring.

RUSSIA = 30 IPC
But many national objecties to grow

Siberia: +7 IPC
SZ125: +5 IPC
Iraq: +5 IPC
Italian Somaliland + Libya: +7 IPC
Italian Islands: +6 IPC
Scandinavia: +11 IPC

That is +41 IPC, PER TURN for a total of 71 IPC without entering German borders (as those can be easily defended by Germany)

@Requester45:

I would love to see some games that have implemented this strategy. They would be good to dissect, and it has certainly raised some valid points from both sides.

I will have a live game sunday where I will test it against my father. Will make pictures and a battle report. However he is the least experienced Axis player of us, normally being Russia/USA himself.

Started two TripleA games also, but have no time unfortunately to continue them for the next month.

@taamvan:

UK and French fighters cannot reach Russian squares.� � The men from both scandanavia (7) and Poland (11, minimum) can join 6 more ground units from transports, along with every plane.� �You are putting all the eggs in one basket.� � You are also massively ambitious regarding Russian income over time.

We are just going back and forth about the details, and don’t think Requester or I are saying that your idea is crazy or illogical or impossible, just that it is a monumentally bad idea against any average+ Germany player because I have not held Novogrod past R4 since 2014, despite trying it every way I could.� �If somehow you can stack to prevent the attack–which isn’t hard to do, the Germans move around you, cutting your way back to Moscow off, and they take Moscow G5-G7.� � That’s what 100+ games of Global have demonstrated, at least, to me.

Thank you for the patience Taamvan, but I think those detailed are crucial in proving the consensus wrong. So far, I have not been convinced by the counter-arguments and thus have the idea my strategy can be a good one.

However I just have played about 20 life games over de past years, never online so certainly are less experienced. I did read this forum 1000 times over and over haha.

UK fighters and French fighter can land in Scotland first turn and land in Novgorod turn 2, on time for a G3 attack.

This is also why I am so persistant on the USA early bombers. They are crucial in this battle of Novgorod and support of a more aggressive Russia. Aggressive does not have to mean advancing Russia. But a Russia that can counter-attack on strategic locations. Just like Dark Skies revolutionized German play, Bright Skies will revolutionize USA and Russia play.

If I am right :P

@Requester45:

How did you double the infantry from your previous calculations?

I added the 7 infantry from Bryansk that can also attack + the 7 mechanized infantry I build in Russia R2, as it can also attack.

34 infantry
Novgorod: 18 inf, 2 mech
Bryansk: 7 inf
Russia: 7 mech

Good to have at least convinced you Russia can hold Leningrad G3.

34 infantry, 12 artillery, 1 tank, 2 fighters and 1 tactical against 16 infantry, 3 artillery and some tanks when Germany decides to push into Belarus. Will this not be a massacre in favour of Russia, enough to withstand the tanks from Paris + new builds?

Yes forces from the south can reinforce north, but again, this takes extra time. I count on Germany to go for the open Russian south instead, this is where his money is.

Another trick awaits him, as the Bryansk stack will retreat to Moscow, and as soon he enters Bryansk, the mobile Leningrad forces will combo-attack or strafe.

You guys also seem to forget that Russia income diminishes veruly fast when you just build infantry and defend Moscow. The more aggressive you play as Russia, the more Germany needs to watch its steps, has to slow down etc. and this allows you to get as many troops in Russia as you would you let Russia be raped besides Moscow.

As you concede as Russia that Moscow is your last hope, Germany has won the battle of Russia. Yes he might not have taken the capital but you are in no position to start a counter-attack. At the very least Russia needs a healthy amount of artillery.

About the economic aspect of Russia, I made calculations much income you might have with defensive play (just Infantry in Moscow) and my strategy (Hold leningrad, build counter-attacks).

R1: 37
R2: 34+5 (125)
R3: 27+5 (125)
R4: 22
R5: 16

R1: 37
R2: 35+5 (S125)
R3: 30+10 (Iraq)
R4: 27+15 (Finland)
R5: 22+28 (Africa, Norway)

In R7 Russia will get another 6 IPC bonus from Sicily and Sardinia.

In short: an pro-active Russia pays, and will make more than up for the difference of numbers between spending 4 IPC per unit (art and mech) than solely infantry.

Assuming Russia holds Leningrad and survive Iraq with 1 tank + 1 mech that take Somaliland + Libya in R5.

When you lose Novgorod, you lose Archangel next turn, and so your bonus. Germany taking Novgorod gets +7. Holding Novgorod is an important IPC swing for the Allies, especially when it results into an Allied scandinavia several turns later.

@Requester45:

If Germany is committed to taking Novgorod on G3, they will. I don’t believe that there is any way that Russia could stop that. If you put forces in Vyborg or Karelia, German planes can support the 7 infantry in a G2 attack on one or both of those territories, with the ability to support a G3 attack on Novgorod. Then you have a Baltic fleet that can land there, plus your mass of troops from the Baltic States. As Germany if you use the troops from Germany, Poland, and Slovakia, you have a total 16 infantry, 3 artillery, and 2 tanks. You can use 3 tanks from Greater Southern if you didn’t push them into Paris, and you can also use any planes that you have left at the beginning of G3. Germany start with 12 planes. They won’t lose them all and they will have the range and ability to assist in a G3 attack on Novgorod. That is going to be enough to take out the Russian forces in Novgorod. A committed German player, will take Novgorod. Russia does not have the time to stop this from happening, and after Germany takes Novgorod and destroys Russia’s primary mass of forces, they will not be able to catch up. Germany will SBR Moscow, and Moscow if they are lucky would have no more than a fraction of what Germany could crush them with.

If Germany buys extra transports, yes, Novgorow will fall quickly. Otherwise, I believe there is enough time + troops to stop it.

Germany is not going to attack Karelia when there are 2 AA guns, 11 infantry, 1 artillery, 2 fighters and 1 tacticsl bomber, that would be suicide.

Yes you are correct, only 16 infantry, 3 artillery, 2 tanks + airforce vs 2 AA, 18 inf, 2 mech, 7 artillery, 1 tank, 1 tactical, 2 fighters + 3 UK/French fighters. Russia will win that fight.

Still I don’t agree.

Germanies mass also does not come concentrated, but the large infantry stack from Germany + the rest and the Yugo strafing troops in the south. The German tanks + mech that took out France can only attack Novgorod G4. If you deploy heavy in Karelia R1, the 7 German infantry will not get to Vyborg, or if they do, you could punish him for it. As Russia you can get 18 inf, 2 mech, 7 artillery, 1 tank in Novgorod R2 + airforce. This is enough to prevent a G3 victory over Novgorod.

You also have 7 infantry, 5 artillery in Bryansk, while 7 mech. infantry in Russia that you build.

When Germany can not take Novgorod, it has only two options

1. Stay in Baltic States until reinforcements arrive
2. Go for Moscow and move all forces up to Belarus.

However in Belarus, I can attack his forces with all my forces, strafing or even beating him.

The combined attack on Belarus of Novgorod, Bryansk and Russia will be 25 infantry, 9 mech. Infantry, 11 artillery, 1 tank + airforce.

While still taking Iraq in R3.

So, stacking Novgorod does not mean not being able to defend Moscow.

When Germany comes with overwhelming power, so not mainly its starting units, you still have the ability to withdraw from Novgorod to Moscow on time by moving 2 steps ahead. However for Germany to achieve this it needs to wait until DOW3 or 4. This again gives Russia more time + the Allies to prepare.

You should attack baltic fleet USA4. When Novgorod or Archangel is Russian, they can reinforce Moscow next turn. I don’t see why keeping Novgorod means losing Russia. It can still attack bypassing armies or force them to stay. You only send some troops to karelia R1 to threaten and when when it is possible, defense of Moscow has priority, but you can respond to Germany easily.

Those 12 bombers attack the Baltic Fleet and will then be bombing crucial German factories. The destruction of the Baltic Fleet allows Russia to take over Scandinavia with minimum forces, as it can not be reinforced.

I see the points about building critical mass for the defense of Moscow (infantry) , and the builds for a counter-attack (mech + artillery) . I think both are needed, and therefore require a balance. I will make a study about this today.

The think the first mission of Russia should be to dissuade a quick conquest of Leningrad. This can be done by concentrating power there and when Germany has not buyed full artillery G1 and DOW3, as that would be too much. In many order situations though, you can prevent a G3 victory there.

Don’t forget that the possibility of a counter-attack can also delay the German advance. If I can devise a plan to have the optimal Russian counter-attack available in R4/5, this might force Germany to take it slower, giving me some more time to build infantry + invite Allied figthers.

@taamvan:

That is what we have to keep focusing on–if your opponent is Cow-lvl you will not be stacking Byransk, or any other territory.   The Germans, without much more than a few SBs over start, can roll in behind the Italians, who have 3 planes and 5 mechs and armor.   No blockers can hold which means that all your stacks have to be able to withstand the full might of the German advance, and if they can can-open through Belarus, they can destroy Byransk and if they can can open through Byransk they can hit Moscow instead of Smolensk.

This is a catch-22–you need all of the Russians bought and kept just to stack at all, but you cant stack where you can be hit or Moscow can be.   So that’s a G5.   If you can hold out until G6 in the face of the breakthroughs, that’s a win.

Ahhhh, now I see the problem… I have not been incorporating the Italian can-openers and therefore liability to keep the movement of Germany under control. Indeed with Italy Germany can sneak through anything.

Then the next question: is there a way to prevent this?

Against only Germany, I still think it can work and the less mechanized infantry can allow the defense of Russia while still able to hold off the Germans from Moscow, while the big Infantry stack is based on only Moscow.

In case I am wrong and Russia is indeed doomed to only infantry.

How often does Moscow fall in high level games where Germany guns for Russia?

Thank you for the great post, I see your concerns. However I think this all changes when I can unite those two stacks on the moment before the clash, while divide them before that clash. Mechanized infantry allows this when stationed in Bryansk and Novgorod. They can make a stand in either zone, or retreat into Moscow on time to not be isolated. All this while having the constant ability counter-attack. I believe using mechanized infantry for Russia might revolutionize its play.

Quote from Napoleon: “march divided, fight concentrated”. His ability to have his forces march / group seperately to confuse the enemy but then all unite his forces before battle and overpower his enemy led to many victories. Romans also excelled in this, being able to march Legions fast to crucial places.

Training your infantry to march twice as fast will allow you to become a new Napolean or Bismarck (remember 1870 war). We have that option as Russia for just 1IPC extra investment.

The Russian board allows excellent synergy and advantages for two moving units over single movers, by abusing this, we get some advantage as defender while Germany has be 100% sharp as one minor mistake will be punished by a counter-attack.

Again, it is important to see Russia as the big potential, as the Allied Germany, not as the big victim that will be raped by Germany. Yes it will still need Allied help, but I see lots of ways for Russia itself to do.

I just realized the strategic strength of Bryansk again, with just the traditional Russian force of artillery and infantry this is very strong. With mechanized infantry instead of normal one you actually cover all of Russia and only need two stacks: Novgorod + Bryansk. The Bryansk stack can also include some basic infantry as it is able to retreat directly into Moscow.

I have analyzed the board of Russia some more, another interesting find is that both Stalingrad and Leningrad can reinforce / attack each other within 2 turns out of reach of German counter-attacks by moving around Moscow.

I have divided Russia in several zones, based on steps from Moscow
Moscow = Zone 0
Moscow +1 = Zone 1
Moscow +2 = Zone 2
Moscow +3 = Zone 3
Zone Siberia

Especially zone 2 is interesting, as it contains most of Russia. This means that in case of a mechanized infantry mass in Moscow, it can counter-attack most of its territory. Leningrad however is in Zone 3, and would be extremely difficult to retake once lost. On the contrary, from Leningrad both Moscow and Stalingrad can be fastly reinforced - counter-attacked. This made stronger in my view that Leningrad is worth most stacking.

This allows me to defend Russia on much more flanks, than Germany will be able to push with force, given his main advantage is the large infantry base it has. This will give me the advantage as Russia.

Important is to have artillery stacks on strategic positions, so in Leningrad, Stalingrad and Moscow. All of them should have 6 artillery, and getting them in place should be done in the first turns.

Starting from R4, I will start adding one tank per turn, as soon as I can become more aggressive I will add more tanks so blitzing becomes possible with medium armies.

I changed my mind, China is indeed a sideshow, and it will be ignored by experienced players that see all Allies getting into China.

Also if Russia wants to challenge Germany it needs all its airforce and initial units. The 18 siberians stay in the North and can be reinforced eventually or attack Japan for some extra time.

Leningrad: Not one step back!

This strategy assumes a German DOW2, but is well suited for earlier or later declarations of war.

Russia 1
Purchase: 3 Artillery, 6 Mechanized Infantry

Non-Combat moves
3 Infantry from Vyborg move to Karelia
6 Infantry, 1 Artillery move from Novgorod to Karelia
3 Infantry from Baltic States move to Novgorod
1 Infantry from Belarus moves to Novgorod
1 Infantry from Archangel move to Novgorod
1 Tank, 1 Mech. Infantry from Russia move to Belarus
1 Infantry, 1 Artillery from Russia move to Smolensk
2 Infantry from Eastern Poland move to Belarus
2 Infantry from Bessarabia move to Western Ukraine
3 Infantry from Ukraine move to Western Ukraine
1 Mech. Infantry from Volgograd move to Bryansk
All Siberian infantry unite at Buryatia

Building Phase: 3 Mech. Infantry in Volgograd (for Iraq), 3 Artillery in Novgorod and 3 Mech. Infantry in Russia

Collect income: 38

The heavy reinforcement of Karelia is done in order to let Germany use the 7 Scandinavion infantry move defensive, ideally to keep them in Finland. This results into 7 less infantry that can attack Novgorod in G3. The strategy is based around taking over Scandinavia from Germany, while being able to respond quickly to opportunities or the ultimate defense of Moscow. In order to conquer Scandinavia two things need to be achieved: Leningrad must hold its ground and the Baltic fleet needs to be destroyed. This can all be done by luring Germany to the southern route to the oil.

Russia 2
Purchase: 3 Artillery, 6 Mech. Infantry

In case Germany has kept its infantry in Finland while moved its main stack to the Baltic States, retreat Karelia into Novgorod, together with the reinforcements from Belarus/Bryansk. You now have 2 AA, 18 Infantry, 2 Mech. Infantry, 7 Artillery, 1 Tank, 1 Tactical Bomber, 2 Fighters defending Leningrad, against 16 Infantry, 3 Artillery, some Eastern tanks and Luftwaffe that was in place. This Leningrad can be reinforced by UK / French fighters that landed in Scotland UK1.

Keep buying Mech. Infantry and Artillery. There are several tactical possibilities Russia gets when its Infantry mass gets mechanized. From Russia it can reach Ukraine in a single turn. Massed Mech. Infantry in Novgorod can combo-attack a big German stack in Bryank together with Russia, strafing and retreating back into Moscow. It can put out an incredible counter-attack when mixed with well placed groups of Artillery. While I agree Russia needs to bulk up as much as possible, I think building mainly infantry limits Russia in its option to counter-attack. As soon Germany makes one mistake, Russia should be able to fully capitalize this. Also building infantry can not defend Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad, while mech. infantry will be much better suited to relocate to strongpoints. Finally, mech. infantry can help out China faster later in the game when breathing space is created with Germany.

In R2 you liberate NW Persia with 1 Tank, 3 Mech. Infantry, 2 Infantry and attack Iraq the following turn. As soon Iraq is captured, 1 Tank and 1 Mech. Infantry go for the money hunt Italian countries such as Somaliland and Sicily/Sardinia.

In the meantime, USA buys the first three rounds Bombers, that are sent as soon as possible to London to take out the Baltic Fleet. As soon as the Baltic Fleet is destroyed, the Leningrad forces will start to advance. Even if Leningrad has fallen and Russia is unable to conquer Scandinavia, the UK can take Norway. The UK will build up its invasion fleet as soon is clear Germany will go for Russia, in the meantime it builds fighters / land troops. This will allow the UK to start doing amphibious attacks UK3/4 in Western Europe forcing Germany to spend forces to the Western front.

Combined UK and USA efforts will contain Italy without too much effort. The only way this can be prevented is heavy airlifting from Germany. This is good for Russia as it diverts German power away from Russia.

While going the southern route will provide a lot of money for Germany, its infantry needs a lot more time, 2 more turns, to get there instead of Leningrad. These 2 turns will provide to be crucial for Germany to become more divided, lose some of its Luftwaffe while its supply lines will be stretched deep into Russian territory. That time allows Russian to build up a counter-attack consisting of lots of Mech. Infantry and Artillery.

Thanks! I have developed a 4 turn strategy, will post it soon. Even Rhinos can be tricked.

Thanks guys for all the feedback, one week left until the game. So far the consensus is that USA bomber fleet is good idea, however too many bombers are not. I can see why, therefore I will build bombers the first 3 turns, that is 12 bombers, more when earlier at war. Those bombers have 1 mission, kill the baltic fleet and hurt Germany afterwards.

Secondly it is agreed Germany is simply too strong to contain so early, they need to expand / thin their lines. Also on this I agree. However to Leningrad it is 2 steps, while to Stalingrad / Caucasus it is 4 steps. South is more interesting for Germany, while it gives the USRR more time to level its land troops mass with that of Germany. So now this leaves me with the question, how can I lure / influence Germany going south.

Currently I think this can be done by getting all troops to the North so Belarus / Leningrad while having minimal resistance in the South. This will hopefully lure Germany in south to a quick Moscow rush / south harvest. Because it is slower, it is easier to get enough mass to prevent a quick moscow rush. A strafe on Bryansk can reinforce moscow from Belarus. In order to play these tactical games I will not mass Infantry, but Mech. Infantry, which allows me to be very mobile with my Russian ‘mass’ from north to south or any counter-attack.

So buys will be 6 mech, 3 artillery etc.

This allows you to for example stack Leningrad, but still be in Moscow on time when they go south by either strafing Bryansk or force him to go by Tambov and you have enough time to move into Russia.

This puts Germany on pressure, much more than full infantry buys.

What do you think?

@MEANWHILE:

@Afrikakorps:

Russian attack force Finkand R2 will be:

1 tactical
2 fighters
3 tanks
1 artillery
11 infantry

Yes Germany can counter reinforcing Finland with airforce, but my experience is Germany luftwaffe is active around the med in G2.

The other option is a R3 attack of finland, building 3 art in R1. Then its
16 infantry, 1 mech, 4 artillery, 4 tanks, 2 fighters, 1 tactical

Actually R3 is wiser I think, do you agree?

I am short on time and will come back to this more in-depth later. By the way I am not trying to be a DB, I simply love playing devil’s advocate.

You state in your original strategy that it will most likely be a GDOW on Russia T2. You have just stated that you plan to eliminate Italy first. How do you intend to do this while still blocking a potential Sea Lion, while also building fast movers in South Africa to dominate Africa, and while also defending Scandinavia with fighters?

You have just shown that Britain is spread way too thin. Also, Axis can simply bomb the harbour of Gibraltar and you are now unable to operate deep in the Med like you stated above for another turn. So it is more likely that the US Pacific fleet will not be a threat until at least T3/T4 by which time you have either been Sea Lioned, Egypt has fallen, or Scandinavia has been slaughtered and Russia is wide open. In the event that You were Sea Lioned, Scandinavia is lost as well no question and, therefore, so is Russia. In the event that Egypt has fallen, Italy is now able to breath while Germany kills Scandinavia because Britain is now hurting for cash. In the event that Scandinavia falls before any of the above Russia is essentially lost, and the Axis can now meet the US landing head on.

All the while Japan has not even been scratched.

You just cannot choke Germany fast enough for this strategy to work.

UK can be flexible regarding protecting London and providing some fighters to a crucial Scandinavian battle. UK on its own is also able to contain Italy, USA getting there a turn later will not be so crucial. However getting those USA bombers to London asap is, as that is what decides if the Russians will be able to take over. As long as the baltic fleet lives, Germany controls what happens in Scandinavia. I agree about choking Germany so fast, it will not be able without USA help. Ofcourse it depends a lot on what Germany will do, however this is nice, as USSR can react to this.

Getting Scandinavia will be impossible and a bad choice when Germany buys fleet and does a Sea Lion feign, as he can easily overpower Russia in leningrad. In this case I should retreat as Russia and mass up to hopefully get a counter-attack. As soon as the USA bombers arrive in numbers I should be able to take out the Baltic Fleet and thus make it possible for Russia to attack towards Scandinavia, this is around T4.