The AC buy makes alot of sense. I might just join the dark side. I’ve never been able to pull the trigger on German Navy.
My thought has always been that the early heavy ground unit purchase for Germany results in an advantage on the front with Russia by turn 3, but the AC provides enough problems for the allies to make the 16 IPCs worth of equipment not as necessary as it seems.
As always, back to the drawing board.
Jetfan- your philosophy is sound. If Germany builds a Carrier + Infantry, and follows up with mostly Infantry from there on out, and Japan concentrates completely on Asia, Russia will be hard pressed.
I recently played a game against someone who did nearly this exact thing to me, and as late as turn 10 I had a looming choice to make as the allies regarding the Caucasus.
Unfortunately the rum/ginger ale combo had taken it’s toll and the game had to be postponed…
In that game I was both surprised and dismayed at how quickly Japan can go from having small forces to a stack of 30 Armor prepared to penetrate Russia. There is a price to be paid for focusing on Germany alone.
I have always been a strong advocate of lots of Infantry for Japan, but it now seems like Infantry early and Armor late is a good Japanese strategy.
The learning never ends…
I would add this, although it seriously detracts from the Indian IC- Indian Ocean Carrier, Transport, 2 Infantry from India and the Carrier based Fighter to Borneo. Indian Ocean Destroyer to Japanese Transport off Kwangtung. Australian Transport and 2 Infantry from Australia to New Guinea. Australian Sub vs. Japanese Sub. If Japan takes India, Russia poised to take it back and Britain can still build 3 units before J2. Doubtful Japan can have a counter prepared without devoting all resources to India.
This move can slow Japan down alot, even without the ICs. Personally I conserve my British fleet, but it has merit.
Switch- I agree about how critical it is to kill the Pearl fleet- it’s an optimal opening move- but in selling your point you neglected what could be gained-
If Russia has 6 Inf in Buryatia, it and China can both be taken. 18 IPCs worth of Russian pieces dead, and killed quickly, opens a gaping hole in the Russian north. Also, if you built 3 transports, you can safely place them in SZ60, means more versatilityon J2 than if you had placed them inside Japan’s coast. Finally, bad dice is taken out of the equation (Pearl can go bad from time to time), conserving your fleet to hammer on Russia and the Indian Ocean coastline.
Again- I agree Pearl should be hammered, but if the Russian player did move up to Buryat, it is an option worth considering.
I agree with the idea of forgetting history, but from a slightly different perspective-
Sometimes on this site you get arguments like this- “well, the Russians produced 70,000 T-34s by 1945, while the Germans only produced 1,300 Tiger Tanks, therefore blah blah blah…”.
The cool thing about Axis and Allies is that we CAN forget history. I might not choose to spend my IPCs on certain units, regardless of what happened historically. I might not choose to island hop with the U.S. Navy, regardless of history. It’s the entire charm of the game, that you get to run it the way you want to, without actual bloodshed.
The way I see it you’ve been set up, it’s the deep winter of 1941, now you get to choose strategy, how to allocate resources etc. What Churchill, Hitler and company chose to do loses all significance.
There are quite a few ways to go-
The first question is, do you want to protect your Baltic fleet? If so you should invest in navy on the first turn. Whether that’s a carrier, or two transports is up to you, but those are widely regarded as the two best naval purchases. The two transports means you’re probably going to have to buy a carrier on round 2.
A non-naval purchase is best, in my opinion, if centered around infantry. 10 of them is pretty solid, along with 2 armor, or a fighter etc.
In a non-bid game, it’s incredibly important to take out Egypt early on (important in a bid game as well, just a different way to accomplish). Take an infantry and armor from S Europe, and drop them off in Egypt. Your Battleship will have to take care of the destroyer parked there. Bring a bomber and fighter as well, and the forces from Libya. You should take it with 2 armor remaining.
Take your sub in SZ 8 and hit the British Battleship near Gibraltar, along with 3-4 fighters (the more the better). You can land them all in France to hold down your flank, along with 3-4 infantry and an AA gun, maybe an armor.
On the Eastern Front with Russia, you’ll have to respond to what Russia has done to you. Gaining the initiative on the front is a huge factor. Karelia is a key spot, but so is W Russia (for Russia). Whoever gains the upper hand and can stack in those territories will have an edge in the economic battle. Be careful about being too aggressive unless you can take out alot of Russian hardware- you can rebuild tanks and artillery more quickly than Russia can.
As a general rule, try to keep your airforce where it can threaten the land and sea in as wide an arc as possible. German fighters are extremely important, so try not to use them up unless a great opportunity comes to devastate allied shipping.
Be careful about dumping large amounts of economy in Africa. Try to keep in mind how many IPCs you’re gaining vs. how many you’re spending to keep it. The ebb and flow of most games with experienced players sees a surge in Africa for Germany followed by a quick (3-4 round) cleanup by the allies, sooner if they’re determined to get you out. You can coordinate with Japan to have them take over the as the muscle in Africa as soon as they can marshal the forces to swing in that direction.
If the allies all come after Germany then infantry will be your best friend. You can buy 10 per round deep into the game, and if your opponents are buying more expensive units you’ll eventually see an opportunity emerge. Your job in that case will be to hold down the fort and threaten Russia just enough to allow Japan to do the dirty work.
I might be preaching to the choir, since you have experience in the original, but I hope this gets you thinking a little bit. Above all else, have fun and try things out.
Nobody’s mentioned it- perhaps it’s assumed? The Asian wall has no chance whatsoever without a U.S. complex in Sinkiang, and lots of Russian help in both spots and in the north. It also requires allied aggression in the Pacific.
Like Switch, I never use this strategy, because it takes away from Britain’s ability to put maximum pressure on Germany early in the game, and also gives up Africa until the U.S. can clean it up - allowing early German growth.
I have had it used against me to good effect, but I eventually cracked it, and the allied player should always expect when building those complexes to lose them- the benefit gained from them is all about the time gained for Russia.
If you use it, try it against an inexperienced player and it will be useful, but against veterans it will probably crack quickly.
Epicurus- I would strongly recommend that you tithe 1 or 2 Infantry per round to W Europe, keeping an advantage over the total amount the allies can bring at all times. German Fighters should NEVER be placed in a position to be killed- but a stack of Infantry with Fighters as a backbone is one of the best defenses possible.
Think of it this way- you’re forcing the allies to move carefully at sea while also being able to attack Karelia and Norway and return to France after the battle. If you need to attack deeper into Russia, you can set up a chain- for example- 3 Fighters in W Europe, 2 in E Europe. The 2 Fighters in E Europe can attack the Ukraine or Belorussia and fall back to France, while the Fighters in France can attack Norway or Karelia etc. and land in E Europe. If you hold Karelia it’s even better- you can now hit Archangel and W Russia and land in Karelia, while the Fighters parked in Karelia can attack and end up defending France.
I’d go one step further, Switch. Infantry units most likely represent armies rather than divisions. If you look at the board to start the game, and assume that the pieces are meant to be commensurate with Germany’s deepest advance into Russia, then each one should represent 200-300 thousand soldiers. The starting units in the Ukraine, for example, represent Army Group South, which certainly had more than 3 Infantry Divisions.
What I’m saying does break down when you look at the Japanese islands (and Allied garrisons like Midway). The garrisons on most of them numbered in the tens of thousands, rather than the hundreds of thousands. However, the game has no way to reconcile these amounts, so we’re stuck with a 3 IPC Infantry unit to represent them all.
The other thing I’d add is that the logistical support of a unit is included in the price. Feeding an army of 200,000 men, providing operational intelligence, and keeping them resupplied with ammunition, clothing, replacements, etc. would all go into the 3 IPC cost.
I know I’m off topic, but I do think it’s fun to keep the scope of the game in mind.
Also think about how many units Britain can produce…
To maximize Britain you’ll need 4 Transports to haul 8 land units. How long will it take you to get the maximum production into Europe or Africa every turn?
Britain usually ends up somewhere between 20-30 IPCs per turn, so what you’re buying is extremely important.
Every purchase you make has a ripple effect. Naval units, for the most part, are ony good for what they can do to help you get your land units to the continent. Make sure you have just enough that Germany will have to pay dearly to slow you down. Couple your movements with a few U.S. pieces at all times until you can stand alone.
If Germany doesn’t add any Baltic navy on G1, it’s very standard to attack the navy with the British airforce. You’ll find other threads examining that move. It’s also a good move, as it reduces or destroys pieces that could counterattack your navy and shield Germany’s airforce from being hurt.
If you want to kick Germany out of Africa quickly, do this- U.K. take 2 Inf/2 Arm to Algeria on your first turn (with 2 Transports and a Battleship) . MAKE SURE you bring a follow up with all available U.S. forces to Algeria as well. The Russian sub HAS to follow. Combine this with a 3 Inf/ Ftr attack in Egypt, IF Germany has one or two units alive. This will kill Germany’s ability to run Armor south and get to S Africa. Africa should be cleaned up pretty quickly if you keep the chain going for a couple of rounds. Don’t attempt this if Germany has postioned themselves to hit SZ 12 hard. 5 Ftrs and a Bomber or less is safe for the Allies (unless the people you’re playing against are unstable).
The downside with this move is a reduced British presence in the Pacific.
In the Pacific, if nothing else some combination of your Destroyer, Fighter etc. should take out the Japanese transport off Kwangtung. The Japanese player will hate it. Use your imagination- there are lots of interesting choices in the Pacific. The thing to remember is that every move you make leaves you vulnerable somewhere- if you retake Egypt you’ll be vulnerable in India, if you don’t you’re vulnerable throughout the length of Africa- you get the idea.
Britain’s a pretty fun country with alot of choices and importance. Above all have a good time figuring it out and crushing your opponents.
Try this for anyone who plays the board game…
AA guns can be casualties, fire at up to 6 planes, are stackable. More interesting, more buyable, more realistic.
You can play with the numbers- only fires at 3 planes (or whatever), defends on a 2 (like an Artillery) if no planes present, etc.
When I wrote to Larry Harris about this he didn’t answer me… I’m not quite sure why it was insulting, I just thought (as do those I game with FTF) that it made AA more fun. I guess he’s touchy about it or something.
Good point Switch about the need to hit either Belorussia or Ukraine to protect W Russia. If you don’t W Russia is toast, no matter what you put there (unless you get incredible luck, which you can never plan for). The Ukraine has to at least be strafed, but why not go all the way…
As a general rule concentrate on getting your long term transport chains in place vs Germany, and do it methodically so they’re full every round. Whether you go to Norway or Algeria or a combination is a product of the particular game you’re in, or just how frisky you’re feeling. Once you get your trannie chains going you can start adding the pretty pieces like fighters. Don’t get stars in your eyes because of the large U.S. economy- good ol’ infantry is ALWAYS a good purchase, even with America.
Watch your Pacific flank closely. W Canada is a great place to tithe an American Inf or two per round until you have the permanent upper hand on Japan’s ability to hit it. Pay close attention to the sea zones.
There are many different strategies, and I’m just giving one philosophy. If you like buying Bombers and Battleships go to it- but you’ll be sacrificing something else to do it.
A long term consideration of the S Africa complex- that I’ve gained through experiences both good and bad- a British complex gives you the capacity to produce 10 pieces total. Given competent Axis play, Britain should not be collecting 30 IPCs for very long (sometimes never after the first round). So that means less than 10 Infantry per round. If you’re building anything other than Infantry in S Africa that also means you’re probably getting far less than 10 units- maybe 6 or 7 total.
If I’m the German player the initial 15 IPCs for the complex + the lessened pressure in the north makes me feel more at ease.
On the plus side it will make it more difficult for Japan to get their meathooks into Africa. If you keep your Indian ocean navy lingering in SZ 34 for a time and then move to S Africa with it it’s a potential thorn in Japan’s side.
I’ve definitely tried it and had it work against less experienced players, but even in those situations I could have probably used the IPCs more wisely.
I’m not trying to shoot down the idea, just pointing out the sacrifice that you have to make elsewhere on the game board.
How do you stop the Axis?
It’s all about how quickly you can land boots in Europe, while putting enough in Africa to clean it up.
I recently finished a (FTF) game with a well ranked player, who was collecting well over 50 per round with Japan by turn 5 and gave up. The reason? My structures were completely in place and the flow of British and American Infantry was completely maximized to Europe. It was obvious that in time Germany was doomed and Japan had expanded as much as possible.
I won’t get into specifics just in case I ever play any of you cats (I’m at work, don’t want to get fired), but early Allied purchases mean everything.
It’s all about forcing the other player to respond to you. Whoever dictates the pace usually wins.
Fox- it actually isn’t that obvious to people to take out the Ukraine. Alot of people that post here take out Belorussia and W Russia on R1 instead, and I’ve been trying to get conversation going about the Ukraine move, but I’ve met some resistance to it.
What you said sums it up- Germany has more difficult decisions to make, and a few less pieces to make them with. The battles become just a little less sure without the extra Armor and Fighter, and the Ukraine has to be retaken, resulting in a smaller stack in either the Ukraine, Karelia or in E Europe. I always plan my German move expecting to have only 5 Fighters, and when I have 6 I’m freakin’ happy.
An aggressive Russian purchase of 3 Inf 3 Arm also gives Russia the opportunity- for a round or two only- to have a large enough threat to make Germany hesitant to come forward. It gains the initiative for Russia on the front for a short time which is a precious commodity.
I think the issue is that most people cringe at the idea of using up the Artillery and several Armor it’ll take for Russia to kill the Ukraine, but I completely believe that it’s worth it in the long run.
The two Transport purchase, if NOT dealt with, allows Germany a great deal of flexibility in the north, especially if followed up with a Carrier on G2. As Tri said, the idea is not to take Britain, but to gain the initiative. From G2 on 6 Inf can be moved to Karelia, or take back Norway if in allied hands.
If Britain moves up to block, mutual annhilation of the UK fleet and German Baltic fleet (with 2 Transports added) on G2 is absolutely to German advantage, and here’s why-
According to Switch he would have purchased a Carrier and sub on UK1. Another Carrier would then be purchased on UK2. That’s 40 IPCs in material. I assume Transports would still have to be built to allow for ground troops to start helping to defend Russia. In the meantime Africa has had no British troops to start cleaning it up from the initial German invasion and move south. If the British pulled out of India to slow Germany down then Japan has no opposition, and Switch being our resident Japanese expert knows that soon you’ll have a GIGANTIC Japan. If the British try to slow down Japan in India, Germany with any competent play eventually makes it to S Africa, with Japan eventually smashing routinely into Egypt, Persia, and I E Africa. In the meantime Japan has, at their leisure, taken Hawaii, New Zealand, and Australia. British economy is evaporating.
My point is… while Britain is spending precious IPCs resurrecting a fleet, and not placing any (or at the most minimal) boots on the ground while cranking up again, it’ll find itself making around 20 IPCs with almost no airforce. Germany has bought time.
I realize that I’m echoing much of what Tri said, but it’s because what he said was sound thought. I hope that I added the bigger picture of the ripple effects that it might have on the rest of the game.
That’s my opinion… but I might just be a silly idiot who makes bad moves.
Did I mention that it’s more than just a Fighter… it’s also an Artillery and an Armor killed. Also the Ukraine is worth 3 IPCs ( 29 IPCs sounds like 8 Inf and an Arm on R2).
With an aggressive Russian purchase of 3 Inf and 3 Arm on R1, you end up with 5 Armor total on the board- not bad. If you go with a more conservative 5 Inf/ Art/ Arm you still have some teeth and a little more bulk. If you go 8 Inf you shouldn’t try to take the Ukraine at all as you won’t have enough offense left on the board.
I respect the Belorussia move- it’s solid- I just think there’s more of a long term gain for the allies when the Ukraine is taken.
Fox- you’re getting alot of different advice here, and even though it’s all quite different they’re all good ideas. There’s no right way to do it, but there are some ways that are better than others. Playtesting will be your best route and the most fun.
Fiend- it’s good to have someone finally respond positively to the Ukraine move. Killing the German Fighter is huge in the long term. Think of it this way- what’s the value, over 10-15 turns (or more), of an extra German Fighter parked defensively in France, S Europe, or Germany? One or two more Infantry will be needed to make up the defensive value- Infantry that are ALWAYS needed on the front with Russia. How about on offense- how much value can you place on that extra 3 pips on the Russian front if you’re engaged in trading battles? Add it up- over a long game that extra Fighter will hit something how many times? 5, 10, 15? That’s alot of battles that are over just a little quicker, meaning a chance that a few less German Infantry are hit. Fighters are also a deterrent for the allies when it comes to how they plan their naval moves. Taking out the Ukraine also puts some strain on Germany’s first turn, as the other battles get a little shakier, and now Germany also has to counter it, making a northern thrust or E Europe stack just a little weaker. Getting the initiative is a huge factor. As anyone who has played deep into games knows, quite often the difference in a game can boil down to having a few more Infantry at the right time.
As to Buryatia- I agree completely that losing 6 Russian Infantry is painful, but most of the time the Japanese go after Hawaii and China. It is absolutely much more safe to pull back, but I never do it personally. I agree, however- conserve Russian Infantry at almost all costs.
As a rule I’d say only trade with Germany if your allies are fully engaged in killing Germany first. It can get really lonely trading pieces with Germany if the U.S. and U.K. aren’t landing any footsoldiers to help out.
Try taking (or at least strafing) the Ukraine. 3 Inf, 1 Art, 2 Arm, and 2 Ftrs should do the trick. The upside is the death of a German Fighter before it ever gets off the ground. For some reason not many people on this board use this move, and no one has been able to articulate why it’s not a solid move. They won’t even try. Again, only do this if your allies are also going all out vs. Germany, as you’ll lose too much Russian hardware to go it alone.
Stack 6 Russian Inf in Buryatia on R1. Try moving a few into Sinkiang and maybe one to Persia (and eventually India) to assist your allies for a few turns. Never forget to move your sub to SZ 2. Build mostly Inf, but not all. A slowly built Armor reserve in Russia can hit nearly anywhere important on the board and provides a nice deterrent to large stacks of axis forces moving forward.
Hope this helps.