Eh… nevermind. Looks like it takes two turns to build a minor IC and upgrade to a major IC… Will take too long and will be faster to just build transports in the Baltic and run them in.
Invasion by turn 4 is also asking for it with Britain, way too much time for it to pull back all its units and for Germany to be distracted from Russia.
In the end I feel that just as it would have been in real life, an incredible amount of luck will be needed to successfully execute. It can be done, but probably with odds of one in ten. But that’s just my guess, could be better, could be worse.
In the original A&A game, my Germany turn #1 was dedicated to eliminating the UK fleet and beginning my attack on Russia. Never gave Sea Lion much of a thought. I am wondering now how feasible it was. I am thinking it was not or I would have tried it.
I think that a sea lion could be possible for Germany rd #3.
G1-take Paris, and the French Atlantic coast (should be a minor IC on coast).
G1-attack/destroy the UK fleet (as much as possible)
G1-roll for tech-(paratroopers), but LRA could come in handy
G1-add to German navy/air (maybe a/c) in Baltic (should start w/BB and several support ships I hope)
G1-attack UK convoys that you can, and UK NO’s
G1-start ground march to Russia (to at least set-up def)
It1-attempt to take Gibraltar and more of the UK navy
It1-start reducing UK $ in Africa/Mid East
It1-attack UK convoys/NO’s that you can
G2-move German navy (with a/c) to French coast w/IC (English Chanel) (could also move to North Sea as Germany will have access to it with West German IC)
G2-position German air and left over ground units on French coast that just destroyed France to get in range and board trpts
G2-roll tech again (looking for paratroopers)
G2-SBR UK, to reduce UK $, and air force with escorts/interceptors, Germany may have superiority
G2-build 3 more transports on the French coast tt w/IC (or West German tt North Sea port) to put w/navy
It2-continue giving UK hell w/attacks and convoy/NO disruption
It2-maybe set-up a secondary Italian sea lion as well (just in case) if feasible or meet-up w/German navy if Italy took Gilb.
G3- if it looks like you have a chance to take UK down, go for it. If not you can always back track through the Baltic to attack Russia. You could also go north and land in Scandinavia. So at this point you have options.
UK will be building through this process, and making counter attacks. A Sea lion attempt will ultimately depend on the starting strengths of the German/UK navies and air forces, or their ability to get superiority. Italy could play a part by getting to Gibraltar, and cutting off the UK naval reinforcements. I’m still not sure if you can pull off a Sea Lion w/o paratroopers.
Germany could probably industrialize some coastal territory off France/NWE and stack its navy off of it; but it’s still going to be expensive and impractical. A factory could have better options: it could build more land units instead to hold France in case the Allies build a naval superstack in response to a potential Sealion.
What do you guys think? Not sure if I’m good with the new AA40 ruleset either, it might not be possible for Germany to place a major factory off the coast like I suggested.
SgtBlitz, from my understanding the French coastal tt will start w/minor French IC, and the Paris tt (land locked tt) will have a major IC. Germany will get them both very early on. Also West Germany will have access to an expanded North Sea, so it will be able to build ships in the North sea between Denmark and the Low countries (kinda reflects the Kiel Canal I guess). This will be cool, could even come with a North Sea port.
You think that France is going to fall that easily? Didn’t they have troops in Africa
You think that France is going to fall that easily? Didn’t they have troops in Africa
Larry said France will fall regardless, it just might take an extra turn if the dice arent on your side.
Yeah from the sound of it they will fall by turn 2 unless you deliberately avoid conflict with them.
You think that France is going to fall that easily? Didn’t they have troops in Africa
It won’t be a cake walk, but yea I think France will loose the Paris tt, and the French coast tt rd #1. The Paris tt should border West Germany (ouch), and the French coastal tt should boarder the low countries that will start out in German hands. The full blitzkrieg (tanks/tacs) should overwhelm the French (pending dice). I also think the Germans will have some inf on the front as well. Italy should be able to come in and take southern France (Vichy) on it first turn as well. The scattered French units in Africa will be more of a nuisance then anything just backing up UK (they can’t replenish). Same with the starting French fleet, I see it as a shell of what it actually was. I would expect the (allied) French fleet to reflect the reduction due to the UK attacking it, and much of it kept in port or scuttled.
Now that we know that the US or Russia can’t attack the Euro axis until rd #4 (unless provoked). The UK is really the only main focus. Japan wipes out China, Germany/Italy wipes out France. Then its UK’s turn.
Yea you have to make sure that you keep enough troops on the Russian boarder, but as the axis you can take your enemies to their knees one at a time. You almost have to attempt a Sea Lion, there is no one else to fight. You must at the very least kick them out of strategic areas, like the Med, Middle East, and Africa, but you can’t take a pass at London if it doable. This might be a kill UK first, then go for India once everyone is at war. Saying that, however, if UK falls its not game over, US/Russia will be powerhouses, but you have to take advantage of the delay for them to enter the game.
UK’s strategy will be as it is in Pac 40 (India), stay alive as long as you can and wait for your friends to bail you out (RD #4). The only difference is they will have more units, and may be able to delay the inevitable long enough for their allies to prevent their destruction. Either that or enough time to setup a quick liberation that they could be a part of.
Okay France is gone. UK, USSR and China are waiting for a bail out. That is going to make things rough on the US.
Yep, that’s pretty much what happened :-D If Japan hadn’t attacked Pearl/Philippines who knows? I think we would have figured some way to get our hands dirty though at some point.
@WILD:
Yep, that’s pretty much what happened :-D If Japan hadn’t attacked Pearl/Philippines who knows? I think we would have figured some way to get our hands dirty though at some point.
I am sure they already were dirty.
Hell, just holding UK from US/canadian counterattacks is going to be rough, as soon as wardec comes through. Pending the dice even let you take England.
I guess one could try to go big in the med and reduce UK to irrelevance, but probably takes too much time compared to a knockout blow. Yea another Russian Barbarossa argument…
Hell, even if Germany manages to conquer Russia, its going to be really difficult to overcome 80+ US IPCs and 50+ UK IPCs (w/ NOs) a round with naval units built from scratch in an Allied threatened Baltic. Hopefully Japan/Italy can take some of the pressure off, but without keeping an existing fleet stack alive throughout the game as a starter I dunno how it can be done.
Maybe it’ll be best to go all out for Russia G1 or G2 (after/while France is taken, of course)! If Germany is at Moscow’s doorstep Round 4 and US finally war decs it could be a very different type of game.
You wouldn’t necessarily have to hold UK after a successful Sea Lion strategy. The added income and the loss of UK income from taking the capitol would go a long way.
Hmmm… this brings up a neutrality rule:
Germany CAN attack Russia G1 and not have a US war dec, correct? I would assume isolationist US wouldn’t care if communism and fascism were trading death blows, so Germany could forgo the +5 Russia neutrality NO and go for moscow early on.
Japan SHOULD be able to attack Russia J1 if it really wanted to without a US war dec; there were border wars going on in manchuria all the time. I’m guessing Larry will put some extra Japan-Russo neutrality pact NO or fiat rule or something to keep Japan from attacking siberia when Germany needs it the most (like Japan can’t attack Russia unless Russia breaks neutrality first). In P40 Russia isn’t even represented so I’m guessing there’s going to be some rule like that in the Global version. I’d rather have no ACME walls in place, however. Remember, Germany had a non-aggression pact with Russia in 1940 (and we know how that went), there’s no reason to block Japan from entering Russia due to a piece of paper if they really wanted to invade.
Just wondering how these were going to fit into the global picture… May be best for Axis to go after Russia first since it will have the least amt of units/firepower with the most easily available resources AND it won’t activate the US war dec. Thinking there might be a SOVIET war economy that gets activated upon invasion, that might be interesting change to game.
Just wondering how these were going to fit into the global picture… May be best for Axis to go after Russia first since it will have the least amt of units/firepower with the most easily available resources AND it won’t activate the US war dec. Thinking there might be a SOVIET war economy that gets activated upon invasion, that might be interesting change to game.
That probably depends on the amount of starting units that Germany has at its disposal G1. Germany must be able to defeat France quickly without having to depend to much on lucky dice. So perhaps a G2, G3 attack on Russia is more viable.
An attack on Russia G1 all the while the Battle of France is still raging would also mean more or less ignoring the UK, right?
Well, if Sealion is after all unfeasible, why not get the party started early in Russia? That’s possibly 3 turns of built units Germany won’t have to fight through on the border, if there’s no Soviet war dec bonus. Some will probably argue that Germany isn’t built up enough yet for invading Russia G1, but then Russia won’t really be ready for war yet either. If Germany and Japan can gank 10-15 IPCs from Russia’s total economy the first few rounds before the US enters the war, it could be pivotal.
Might as well ignore Britain if you can’t KO the capital, right? I mean, there’s territories in the Middle East you can still go after, but building up a fleet in the Baltic for an improbable invasion scenario is asking for it. Usually what happens anyway, US comes in to help defend by round 1-2 so invasion is moot.
I’m not saying stop the invasion of France, just that there’s not much point in weakening Britain overmuch if you can’t take the capital. You’re just throwing expensive air and naval units at boats the UK can rebuild, over and over again (lol maybe hoping for paratroopers to roll).
Heh, this is twice (maybe three times) on this thread that I’ve argued myself out of Sealion now.
We now know Russia can’t attack the Euro axis til rd #4 (unless provoked). I believe it could go to war w/Jap at any time as there is no pact or rule to stop them (but will they want to?). There will be several pro (something) neutrals near the Russian boarders, will they be able to take them? The first couple of rounds will most likely see Germany, Italy and UK gobble them up, but will Russia be in on the fun (it has the 2nd turn).
I don’t see a large build-up at the boarder for the Germans/Russians. The Germans will need a rd or two to maneuver/build for a Barbarossa. They can do this as they destroy France, but will need to build more tanks from the beginning and reposition their air force after France Paris falls (the loot will come in handy). The Russians will be in def mode from the beginning on the Euro front, because they won’t be able to attack until rd #4 unless provoked (maybe Italy can screw this up). The Soviets will likely set up a week front line w/counter attack in position to kill the German front line tanks. There is also a lot of tt the Russians can make def withdraw through until they gain an advantage over a bogged down axis.
As I said I don’t think there will be a pact between Russia and Japan preventing them from going to war (per Larry), and both powers will have large forces on the boarders. We already know what Japan has, and I think Larry said something about 18 Russian units there. In a nut shell it would be costly to both of them to attack. The Japs will want to use that force to take out China & eventually UK, and the Russians I’m sure would like to bring the Siberians home to protect Moscow. It will be cool to see if they allow each other to withdraw, or if they will have to keep those large forces at least near the boarder. If Germany goes all out against Russia rd #3, I could easily see the Japs coming from the other way.
If you go full tilt against Russia early (rd #2-#3), I just think your letting UK off the hook. Once UK gets the full support of the US, it will be a very tough nut to crack. Russia/US can’t hurt you til round #4 (at your control), and the UK is isolated. Sea Lion may be to costly, but control of the sea’s around UK, the Med, Scandinavia, and much of the Mid East/Africa will be a pretty big axis advantage early on. If the opportunity comes up and you can take London even temporarily, it will set the allies back.
I’m not saying stop the invasion of France, just that there’s not much point in weakening Britain overmuch if you can’t take the capital. You’re just throwing expensive air and naval units at boats the UK can rebuild, over and over again (lol maybe hoping for paratroopers to roll).
Sea Lion may be determined to be to costly of a move (due to naval build-up needed). We won’t know til the game comes out in late Aug for sure to see what the starting German navy is. You still have an isolated UK that the Euro axis can double team for 3-4 rounds, how often can the axis do that. Its normally the other way around. If you can attack expensive UK/French ships w/cheap subs/DD’s and an over powering air force, you have to go for it. Control of the sea is very important to the axis Euro’s even if its just the first 4-5 rounds. If you are able to reduce the UK income to just the island (8-10 ipc’s) in Europe, and also not allowing the UK to get its NO, by taking most of its Euro assets that’s a rather large axis advantage. You know that parts of the UK (French) fleet(s) will be sitting ducks at the games start (it always is).
**Edit: Plus if you have control of the sea around England you don’t necessarily have to take the capital to further reduce its income, there are convoy zones. You may be able to reduce UK to just the Canadian ipc’s w/o taking London. Of course this will only work until the US comes over, but that could take awhile, and major US involvement in Europe could be better for a patient Japan.
I say strip what you can from UK rd 1-3, then start the invasion of Russia rd #3 at the earliest before they get to powerful. I wonder what the best round will be for Japan to start its invasions rd #3 as well?
