Just thinking about this, considering the new rules to SBRs, where they end up limiting production to the ICs they hit, it seems Axis MUST increase its production capacity or end up building sub-optimal (i.e., not infantry) units from their starting factories. (For Japan this issue is a non-starter, since they usually build in India or East Indies anyway, question is WHEN). Germany can earn up to 53 ipcs with NOs from a good G1 start and there’s simply NO WAY they can turn all of those IPCs into units with the limited 10 production base from the capital. If you don’t turn that extra money into another factory its just going to be gobbled up in SBR damage on germany; whereas an IC in France or Poland can spread the damage around a bit, especially when you’re not required to repair the factories which was a necessary part of Revised.
Most of the games where I’ve seen Germany/Axis win they either went all tanks with the 50+ipc income and Britain and the US didn’t do a damn thing to stop them in Europe (seriously, that game went to Round 4 with Germany building all tanks every round, sending everything east, and NO European invasion by bad US/Britain play), OR they built a factory in France or Poland that allowed them to turtle with inf to victory by Round 6-7 with Japan taking Russia. Some people would argue that building another IC helps the Allies by giving them potentially a lot more IPCs to destroy through SBRs, but I haven’t seen a victorious entire-game-SBR-campaign yet. Only time SBR really helps is when you’re trying to finish an opponent off, (OR YOU HAVE ROLLED HBs) and they have no other options except to repair the capital factories.
I don’t like the idea of spending 1/2 of my T1 income on a unit that doesn’t move/attack/defend and is subject to “free SBR’s” (unless of course you wish to spend ANOTHER 5 IPC’s on an AA T1). The math at first glance doesn’t add up. However, if one gets a good G1 turn and the UK fleet is completley dead and the UK fig on Egy is dead as well, anything is possible I suppose.
53 IPC’s can be achieved on G2 or G3 fairly often. It’s just a matter of using the income for a factory to turtle or buying air. Some of the best Axis games I have had are where Germany builds 1 aircraft when their income is in the 40’s and 2 when it is in the 50’s. This will force the Allies to build more warships and less transports, delaying a large landing. After aircraft, the build is a mix of infantry and tanks.
Meh, I just don’t like the thought of sending bombers and fighters to their certain doom attacking UK/US fleets. It is certainly more viable in AA50 than in revised when all you needed were transport stacks to defend fleets, but it still hurts when you lose all your starting air force. Much rather build a few subs or land the fighters on japanese or italian carriers and let the allies knock those fleets out, sub fodder hits for the win.
SgtBlitz, your pretty much spot on this one.
Increasing Germany production really helps win the game.I favor like many the France IC. Besides, you can still have the planes to keep allies on their toes. 1 plane and 14 infantry is around 52 ipc. By round 6-7 you should have hordes of infantry backed up by a strong aviation.
Problem for me is that it makes for long and boring games. I been aiming lately at faster campaigns even if it means a bit more risk since most players I go against are conservative ones. This shakes them to the core as they xpect you to think like them in terms of 100% safe battles. I say any battle above 75% odds should be taken or you’ll drown in a 12 hours game :)
Now we’re getting into discussions of playing style.
Some like a faster push, some prefer the more conservative method.
I advocate a safer Germany (READ IC somewhere) mainly because it is much easier for the allies to triple team Germany, much more difficult to pressure Japan with more than USA.
Everyone knows that 3 is > 2, so the allies can be more productive going after Germany. Question is how much aid should USA to Europe? Japan does need SOME pressure…. but I am getting off topic.
Count me in as a German IC advocate.
Germany starts at 31 ipcs on turn 1, peaks at around 55 on turn 3, and then slowly goes back down to 31 by turn 6 again.
buying 10 tanks = 50 ipcs.
For turns 3, maybe 4, maybe maybe 5, you will control Karelia, which gets you another 2 production slots, so…
buying 12 tanks = 60 ipcs
buying 4 inf, 1 art, 6 tanks, 1 fighter = 56 ipcs
If you have extra, maybe buy a fighter or roll for tech. Rolling for tech is always nice, and fighters get beastly defensive rolls for later when you have to defend.
I consider buying an IC as Germany to be very sub-optimal play. 12 production slots is plenty, and you should not ever have any more than 55 ipcs. If you do have more than 55, that means you are winning already, and buying an IC becomes a “win-more” option, and therefore irrelevant.
I only send German air against Allied navies if I know I can win with at least a few aircraft left, or if I’m desparate. Normally, I use fighters to defend France, and move them if needed, and I use bombers to trade territory with Russia. By building aircraft, you are building a multipurpose unit to force the Allies to build a specialized unit.
However, I have won with a Bulgaria IC before, so I have nothing against building an IC. I just don’t think it is necessary.
I prefer to take one of Russia’s. If you put an IC up, the allies will bomb you into bankruptcy. If you take one, then the allies probably cannot afford to bomb you into bankruptcy.
Meanwhile, build bombers and fighters. I’ve yet to have a turn where I built less than 5 infantry in Germany in any given turn because I had too much money.
Depending on the # of enemy transports sunk, usually 2 or more, I will gladly trade planes for more expensive boats, esp if there cruisers or battleships!
Curious for those who advocate a French IPC; what do you expect the total AVG defense of units purchased, the total AVG offense of units purchased, and the total AVG units produced for T1-T5? To make this easier, pretend the Allies are not SBRing you.
You need 48 ipc to max France and Germany IC. (just infantry)
In my opinion, this is hardly achieved, when you consider the fact that Allies can bomb you. I think Germany is better without that second IC. He should always consider taking one from Russia. If you are to build a second IC turn one, I think it’s safe to say that the German player is going to play defensive all game, hoping Japan would end the game
Robert
Being conservative and considering sinking UK’s fleet.
Germany
T1- 31ipc IC, AA gun - 1 fighter
T2 - 50ipc 13 infantry - 1 fighter
T3- 55ipc 15inf - 1 fighter
T4- 50ipc 13inf - 1 bomber
T5- 45ipc 15 inf
Italy
T1- 10ipc 1 fighter
T2- 15ipc 5 inf
T3- 20ipc 5inf (5ipc)
T4- 20ipc 5inf 1 fighter
T5- 15ipc 5inf
Uk can only build 8 units a turn.
In my experience, Germany income gets higher than that if well played and you should be able to max out prod at least 2-3 turns.
If you don’t build ground units G1 your income will not get that high against a half decent allied player. They can and will stack Karelia with the 2 UK figs / 1 US bomber and everything russia can get there. So sure, take it on G2 and loose nearly every unit you have left on the board. Allied players that are going KGF and just give up Karalia on turn 2 are being foolish, esp if germany will not have any more units coming at them until turn 4 at the earliest because she bought an IC.
If you want to threaten the allied navy all you must do is build a plane a turn, or 2 if you can afford it. Also, German fighters on france are amazing to defend against the allied drop, and to harrass allied shipping. On G1 buy 7 inf and a fig, or a bomber and 5 inf, 1 art. On G2 buy another fig or bomber, etc. That means the allies have to drop more than a cruiser a turn to keep there navy alive. When UK is only making high 20s or low 30s, that is tough for her. Now yes they can merge fleets, but then the area you must defend is reduced, best way around this for allies are UK carriers with US fighters but still the more boats they buy, the fewer troops they land.
I agree that Germany need to put a plane on the board every round, at least until you have 6 planes then you can hold off. By plane, I mean fighter or bomber, your choice.
If you don’t build ground units G1 your income will not get that high against a half decent allied player. They can and will stack Karelia with the 2 UK figs / 1 US bomber and everything russia can get there. So sure, take it on G2 and loose nearly every unit you have left on the board. Allied players that are going KGF and just give up Karalia on turn 2 are being foolish, esp if germany will not have any more units coming at them until turn 4 at the earliest because she bought an IC.
If you want to threaten the allied navy all you must do is build a plane a turn, or 2 if you can afford it. Also, German fighters on france are amazing to defend against the allied drop, and to harrass allied shipping. On G1 buy 7 inf and a fig, or a bomber and 5 inf, 1 art. On G2 buy another fig or bomber, etc. That means the allies have to drop more than a cruiser a turn to keep there navy alive. When UK is only making high 20s or low 30s, that is tough for her. Now yes they can merge fleets, but then the area you must defend is reduced, best way around this for allies are UK carriers with US fighters but still the more boats they buy, the fewer troops they land.
This sums up most of my thoughts, though I have become increasingly attracted to a merged fleet style of play, particularly if the Western Axis skimp on buying land units T1 (as the merged fleet would allow for a greater number of produced land units, while the axis bought very few). After testing the French factory twice, I could not produce the number of IPC’s claimed that Germany would be making.
Don’t forget that the bombers you build can be stationed in Germany to trade territories with Russia. Trading German infantry for Russian infantry (and some offensive units if they don’t have their own aircraft) can thin out Russia’s defenses for Japan, and will help you conserve tanks.
If you don’t build ground units G1 your income will not get that high against a half decent allied player. They can and will stack Karelia with the 2 UK figs / 1 US bomber and everything russia can get there. So sure, take it on G2 and loose nearly every unit you have left on the board. Allied players that are going KGF and just give up Karalia on turn 2 are being foolish, esp if germany will not have any more units coming at them until turn 4 at the earliest because she bought an IC.
If you want to threaten the allied navy all you must do is build a plane a turn, or 2 if you can afford it. Also, German fighters on france are amazing to defend against the allied drop, and to harrass allied shipping. On G1 buy 7 inf and a fig, or a bomber and 5 inf, 1 art. On G2 buy another fig or bomber, etc. That means the allies have to drop more than a cruiser a turn to keep there navy alive. When UK is only making high 20s or low 30s, that is tough for her. Now yes they can merge fleets, but then the area you must defend is reduced, best way around this for allies are UK carriers with US fighters but still the more boats they buy, the fewer troops they land.
This sums up most of my thoughts, though I have become increasingly attracted to a merged fleet style of play, particularly if the Western Axis skimp on buying land units T1 (as the merged fleet would allow for a greater number of produced land units, while the axis bought very few). After testing the French factory twice, I could not produce the number of IPC’s claimed that Germany would be making.
The Franch IC need not be bought G1. Early game is better, but that IC bought on G2 can make up for less grunts bought on G2 because you can drop the units there on G3. The IC adds strategic flexibility/options for Germany
On G2, if you can take Kar and US is going somewhat/mostly pacific then yes, I can see a french IC. Other than that though I just don’t see it. In my typical KGF games germany will only make over 50 IPCs for one turn, at most. After that she struggles for the 40s.
On allied turn 2 is when the UK starts dropping heavy into Karelia, Norway and Finland are lost, and the US will drop in Africa (sometimes on turn 3), and atleast 2 bombers are SBRing you, sometimes 3. By allied turn 3 Italy is threatened with US landing, france is threatened, Karelia should be secured (almost secured), and if only 2 bombers SBR you that means Italy’s fleet is at the bottom of the med.
I’ll take a bomber, or a fighter and 2 armor, over an IC that will likely end up being a liability.
Now yes, the extra IC lets you avoid repairing SBR damage. So for 15 IPCs you get 6 more units to build, or you could have repaired for 6 IPCs, so in that sense it is pointless. And on turns 2-4 you want to produce units with G that have some punch to keep Russia honest and to threaten allied fleets, inf cannot do that. Let Italy build the inf to help you defend and tell Japan to hurry it up.
@Cmdr:
Well axis, you may ask Botider what he thinks about building an Industrial Complex in France, as Germany against me, but I’m sure he’s going to support my following statement:
If the axis put an IC in France, especially early in the game before the war in Russia is decided, you are begging the allies to go on a major SBR campaign. With the price of bombers at 12 IPC, even without a tech option, there is absolutely no reason England cannot have two bombers and America put 2 new ones on the board every round. Eventually you’ll have more bombers than industrial complexes to bomb which is good, because you are covered in case of loss.
With an IC in France, there is virtually no reason you cannot expect 28-32 Damage to Germany and 10-12 Damage to Italy (with the two Brit bombers to pick up slack if the Americans fall short.)
How many rounds can the Axis take of that before they lose? It is virtually possible for Russia to ignore the Germans and Italians after round 5 and dedicate it’s life to making Japan frustrated while the Americans and British build up forces in Africa/Europe.
So 5 less inf for Germany signals the Allied Bomber command to go into overdrive?
5 inf are the key to the allied game plan decision? In other words, what stops the allied from running an SBR campaign anyways, regardless of an IC in France or not. Recall that Germany does not NEED to repair those damages to the French IC…
Also, more bombers = less navy = less units for the axis (germany/italy) to need to worry about landing …
An Axis IC in France offers some options, like enabling ftrs stationed in Germany to hit an allied navy in sz12.
No, what signals the allies to go heavy bombers is the 32 IPC dmg count on Germany. Very significantly higher than 20 IPC damage count you can do starting out. If you can only do 20, then America only needs 3 bombers to do significant. But if the Axis are just going to blow money on an IC, make them really PAY for it.
15 IPC to buy it
12 IPC a round to use it!
Instead, Germany should be focused on TAKING a Russian IC. After all, without one, you are only earning in the 40s anyway. (Italy has Africa right? It should!) When you get one, that’s when Germany bumps up over 50 and near 60, and that’s when you start needing increased production.
