Does anyone know how many Russian and German troops died at Stalingrad?

@ABWorsham4

So the what if is “What if the Finns mobilised more troops that would free up German forces?”

And the question is where I would send them. Okay.

I think it might be easier by saying where I would not send them.

I am also assuming that the “Mountain Corps” are just infantry, not Gebrigsjager or Alpini, considering the corps were entirely made up of regular infantry divisions.

Italy (Germany’s doing really well here, no hope of pushing the Allies out with one corps, so just do what we did historically)

Norway (almost nothing there except the sabotaging of the heavy water plant, but any hope of redoing the bomb is long gone)

The Atlantic Wall (Allies aren’t landing there until 1944, other areas are much more dire)

Leningrad Front (Feels like the time for storming Leningrad is long gone and a corps wouldn’t make a difference, maybe if the Kursk attack was cancelled entirely and was redirected, but tanks don’t work well in cities)

So that leaves:

Army Group South

Balkans

Kursk

Mainly because I’m more knowledgable about this area I would probably give it to Kursk (to strengthen the attacks) or Army Group South (to hold the line against the Soviet counteroffensive, allowing Manstein’s guys to continue pushing on Kursk rather than racing southwards to defend). I also have an odd affinity for Kursk out of all the Eastern Front battles.

And I feel there’s no way to get Tito.

As we both know, this wouldn’t change much in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully Manstein does better though.

@221B:

I had to vote other as I think a good proximity fuse ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_fuze )could have made a tremendous difference in the naval battles the Japanese lost.  It certainly made a difference for the Americans.

There is no doubt that Japanese Anti Aircraft were the poorest of the major nations of WW2. Only Rabaul had any success in air defense, and this was due to the massive amount of Allied bombing missions on that target and the practice the Japanese gunners gained. Rabaul would claim 500 aircraft, mostly singing engine bombers.

The Japanese would use several warship superstructures that were sunk to create " flak towers".

The allies who cleared the sky’s of the south pacific of Japanese planes and bombed at will anything desired dreadful hated missions to bomb Rabaul.

Morning, Worsham.

My favorite German warship actually built was the Bismarck. One of the best battleships of the war.

My favorite planned German warship was the H-44. The H-44 would have had double the displacement of the Yamato battleship. It would have had 20" guns; instead of the 17" guns found on the Yamato. It was planned to have 68 AA guns; compared to 24 for the Yamato. It also would have been by far the most heavily armored battleship Germany had ever built. The intention was to make it impervious to attack.

@aequitas-et-veritas

I think you overestimate Germany’s ability to not get fooled.

Germany was fooled several times-just look at what the Soviets did:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj7mfyEm_3zAhVeJzQIHWXCB54QFnoECAUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRussian_military_deception&usg=AOvVaw3hgbVBMWuU26iUG3iTRmQK

If you’re saying D-Day and the deception in Operation Bagration (and all the other times on the Eastern Front) was all due to betrayal, it should be well known.

In response to your questions, there are several clear answers:

Most German submarines were destroyed by now, and the rest would have been near Pas De Calais, where Germany expected the Allies to land.

And there were German naval units in Normandy-several torpedo boats, or E-boats, which sunk a Norwegian destroyer, the only German naval victory on D-Day. There were also these German naval assets at Normandy: 3 torpedo boats, 29 fast attack craft, and 72 minesweepers. If there truly was sabotage these would have disappeared as well, and the secret traitor would not have been uncovered anyway by the Nazis if we don’t even know his identity today.

The stripping of Luftwaffe and anti aircraft assets were probably done to reinforce the forces in the Defence Of The Reich campaign, after the Big Week which drove German aircraft numbers down to irreplaceable levels:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Week

As for the ordering of targeting devices from Normandy, it’s the same reason why Rommel left for his wife: Inaccurate German weather reports.

As for the two agents or spies your were talking about, one of them was a double agent (like Germany’s entire spy network in Britain), and simply bad luck and quarrelling at higher levels in the German command prevented them from using potentially important information from the other agent.

I cannot find evidence about the problems with the Panzer Lehr Division that you talked about, but I do believe you on this information.

The Allies were much stronger than thought-analysis shows that even if Germany was able to get the full plan from a dead body after the Exercise Tiger disaster (which involved an attack by Germans ships against troops preparing for D-Day), and Germany transferred all of the Fifth Panzer Army to the beaches, and Rommel stayed, the Allies could not have been repelled-shore bombardment and air power would have broken up panzer forces enough to prevent a collapse. The war would have simply lasted longer, or the Soviet would have conquered more of Germany.

Honestly, I find it quite interesting that you came up or mentioned this theory, as it makes for good discussion. I hope we have some great discussions about the German side of D-Day!

Finally, as for the original question, the Fifthteenth Army was eventually used at Normandy, where it was devastated as well as at the Falaise Pocket. The main problem with Operation Market Garden were the Allies not taking seriously Dutch resistance intelligence the fact that German panzer divisions were refitting right where the Allies were going to land. I think if the Fifthteenth Army was at Normandy on the first day, it might have been much harder for the Allies, as they would not have stablished as secured beachheads.

Thanks for the morbid instructions, Garg - lol

Here are the results of the bayonets from milsurps.com- the poster named “porterkids” is correct.

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=44302&p=263575&posted=1#post263575

I confirmed with pictires:

Italian model 1891 on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Italian-Model-1891-Carcano-Bayonet-Terni-Marked-AK-9243-/221224511424#vi-content

Japanese type 99 bayonet on icollector:

http://www.icollector.com/Two-Japanese-Type-99-Rifles-A-Japanese-Type-99-Rifle-with-Bayonet-B-Japanese-Type-99-Rifle-w_i9751462

@Dylan:

@Guerrilla:

No He lived! Just before the Soviets took over his bunker he was beamed up by a UFO. The aliens injected him with Abiesium and now he is a super soldier on the planet Yolulu. Read your history people… Geez…

GG

Your making fun of people that he did leave.

People that he left? What do you mean? And no, I’m just being sarcastic towards someone who doesn’t believe he died.

GG

@Battlingmaxo:

Try Stalingrad, by Anthony Beevor….one of the best works on the subject (Penguin Books)

excellent book, i read it in a few stops at barns and noble.  i loved doing that, just read books over time there.

KurtGodel7, very good post, thank you.

I’m still not convinced however, I’ll reply to a few of your points below further:

Germany desperately needed the Russian oil by 1943 (as well as Russian grain which I will discuss further below).  That they failed to take the Caucasus during this time was their last realistic chance at victory, IMO.  However, had they taken the oil wells, but with the Russians destroying them in the process as was quite likely, would the Germans be able to restore the flow of oil in sufficient time? It might take months, even years to rebuild the necessary infrastructure in the best of circumstances, let alone during a brutal war.  The German industry was already hard pressed to supply the necessary armaments and did not have a great deal of experience with oil industry in the first place.  I think they would not have been able to do this.

The same idea goes for the chromium, vanadium, etc., though this would be less difficult for the Germans to accomplish (or mitigate as you also suggest) than the oil problem.

While Germany might have been able to supply an equivalent amount of money, material and engineers to work on their atomic program, there simply were much fewer top nuclear physicists in all Europe than existed in the US.  Consequently, it would have probably cost more and taken longer than the US program for this reason alone.  I have no doubt they could have eventually done it, but I don’t see how they develop nuclear weapons before the allies developed a delivery system that could get through their defenses.

The German V-2 was a technological marvel, but other than size, no more advanced than the rockets being built by Dr. Goddard.  After the war, when Dr. Goddard was able to examine a captured V-2, he was convinced the Germans had stolen his work.  And the Germans might have because most of his designs were on file in the US patent office, available for public viewing (which the Germans did prior to the war).  I think had the Americans wanted to (and Dr. Goddard certainly did) they could have built a superior rocket in a couple months and have it mass-produced in six.  As the A-bombs designs at that time were quite heavy, it might have taken longer than that to build a nuclear capable rocket…but how much longer?

Alternatively, the Allies could have either copied the German jets to enable a delivery system, or devise other means (boats/submarines? special ops?) to deliver these weapons.

In addition, I consider the German attack on Russia to be about food as well as oil  The Ukraine was the breadbasket of Europe, and helped the Germans tremendously in 1943.  But food was scarce in 1944 and onward.  Partly this was due to Russian recovery of territory.  But it was also because the Ukraine was normally not sufficient by itself to feed Germany (the year of the capture of Ukraine by the Germans was one of the best years for Ukrainian agriculture as the weather was nearly perfect).  Of course, the poor treatment of the Ukrainians by the Germans did not lend itself to helping this problem either. In order to assure itself of adequate food, I think the Caucasus (the next logical food source) was needed.