Heavy Bombers Question…

Heavy Bombers is still my favorite tech.  I’ve only got 5 games of AA50 under my belt though.

I agree with Jenn’s ordering of the techs. Russia in '41 is the only country that may have a problem with paratroopers if it gets it latter in the game due to not being able to give up the production of 4 infantry to produce a bomber. In '42 they already start with one. Paratroopers is great for attacking those out of the way places your opponent thought were safely his. And paratroopers with long range is unbelievably good and almost a requirement for them to be effective in the Pacific.

Advanced artillery is ok. It is not all that great of a tech and I tend to buy artillery.

I have yet to see advanced artillery add a single meaningful hit.  I think jets are over-rated as well.  I seldom see them actually hit a 4 that wasn’t overkill in the last round of a battle (a meaningless hit).

It seems advanced artillery and jets gives more of a false sense of confidence to the owner, more than anything.  :lol:

An errata that has been out for about a year now disallows +2 production on 1’s and 2’s.  So it’s no good on Hawaii, Alaska, Algeria, Burma, or any of those places.  I usually play +1 for 1’s and 2’s, as I feel the errata takes it to the opposite, equally unpleasant extreme.

The new 2010 errata clarifies that heavy bombers only get 1 hit, and max damage is 6 on SBR (best of 2 dice).  It’s unbelievable to me that it was left ambiguous in the rulebook.  (Just says roll 2 dice per bomber - ambiguous)  Since it’s always been multi-hit capability in the past, even Krieghund told me (before the latest errata) that heavy bombers were indeed multi-hit, and max damage of 12 on SBR.

In my experience, long range aircraft is the best tech (except for isolated situational circumstances).  With the nerfing of heavy bombers (I’m not a fan) long range air has just become that much more dominant.  If I have long range air (say with Japan or USA) and you have heavy bombers (Japan or USA) I’m liking my chances.  Increased production, shipyards, and radar all help against heavy bombers - techs that were not available in Revised (which had 2 hit heavies that you could target research at), so it seems strange to me that they would nerf heavy bombers in AA50 and not Revised or Classic.  (I know LHTR modifies them, but I mean default, normal play)

Of course, mechanized infantry and sometimes paratroopers can be devastating as well.  It depends on what you have and your game position, of course…

I realize Easter was yesterday…Is that why you resurrected this thread ?

@Battlingmaxo:

I realize Easter was yesterday…Is that why you resurrected this thread ?

Hehe - no, I resurrect threads when I get bored with the same ones - there is not enough discussion of AA50 going on, so I click on some random thread from a year ago and find one that has good discussion.  Then I resurrect it, hoping for more discussion from different folks.  :-)

@Yoper:

My friend Eric (AA50 playtester) was doing well early on in the finals of the 2009 Origins AA50 tournament, but then his opponents got both LRA and HBs.  Needless to say, he called it quits not long after that so he could get an early start home.

Hehe - wise man.

@Yoper:

We didn’t mess with tech during our playtesting.  We wanted to make sure the base game was right.

Also, after seeing how powerful tech can be in AA50, Greg Smorey (the GM of the Origins and GCI A&A tourneys) stop allowing then to be used in his events.

Yeah, I can understand that.  However, no tech games can more easily drag on and on and get rather boring.  I’m in the 18th round of one right now, and it will take at least a few more rounds to decide.  I personally loathe the absence of the possibilities of a player getting paratroopers, long range air, etc.  There were no such guarantees in war - you couldn’t always be sure the enemy couldn’t reach you.

And I understand what you mean when you say “base game”, but to many of us, the “base game” is with tech, and going no tech is an alternative for a different game.  Every time I play no tech, I end up thinking “never again”, but always get lured into another no tech game just so I can be playing A&A.  :lol:

In the right hands, heavy bombers are absolutely devastating. If the US gets HB in the first few years, it is in a position to destroy either the German or Italian fleets and grind the ICs to pulp. Once the US has HB, it can commit to buying just $12 a year for the Atlantic campaign and most of its other money to harrassing the Japanese navy and island hopping. Economic damage versus Germany and Italy frees the UK to build its fleet to start assailing Norway, NWE, and France.

While HB is a fine tech for the other countries, it seems almost custom-made for the US. UK and Ger can certainly make use of HB, but they have so many other concerns that it makes squeezing an extra bomber out fairly difficult. But the same rewards are there as for the US–IC damage and fleet destruction.

I can see the point in disallowing tech in tourneys, but love playing with them in our group. They almost always affect the game in some unforeseen way.

Nature, are you aware of the Spring 2010 errata that states the heavy bombers only get the better of two dice?  Each bomber can still only hit once, and can only do max damage of 6 to a complex.

@Yoper:

Plus, the techs changed from what we had during playtesting.

There wasn’t a Paratroopers tech in the tree we had.  Another instance of the WotC types changing things after we were done with our work.

Yeah, I’d heard that - maybe it was from you, I don’t know.

Paratroopers - kind of a big change, eh?  I am really glad they added it, by the way.  Especially, being on chart 1.  But what’s the point of play-testing a different game then the one they will put out?  :lol:

@Yoper:

Paratrooper- I think that it is a very powerful tech.  Besides, it could be handled differently.  And in doing so, it wouldn’t allow the bomber to carry the ground unit and attack each round!

Yes, but I think they did strike a middle ground.  Like the rules that they have to stop at the first enemy territory, even if it’s empty.  What becomes ridiculous is when they’re paired with heavy bombers and/or long range, which is the subject of another thread I started awhile back.

But when both sides have equal access to techs, I don’t see a problem with any of them.  Yes, occasionally they will give a player an unfair advantage, but that’s the nature of war - it’s not fair.  Many times, conventional dice rolling for battles is a bigger factor than tech anyway.  I’ve seen games where players had horrible luck getting techs, and still had an advantage because the other dice went their way.

@shifty:

Heavy Bombers get to roll two dice when attacking.  Does this mean that if i’m attacking two infantry with 1 bomber, i could score two “hits” and win the battle in round 1 (pending casualty zone retaliation)??  Or is it like tech rolls (only one tech advance, no matter how many 6’s), where you only get one “hit” regardless of how many dice are 4 or less?

This was the original post.  You know, it’s interesting that the OOB rules couldn’t even unambiguously answer this question…  :x

@gamerman01:

Nature, are you aware of the Spring 2010 errata that states the heavy bombers only get the better of two dice?  Each bomber can still only hit once, and can only do max damage of 6 to a complex.

Yeah, gamerman, I am aware of that most recent update. We don’t use it, since it negates much of the fun of getting HBs in the first place and we have been playing with the published rules for over a year. My playing group doesn’t always like to implement the updated rules errata that we come across. You shouldn’t need to access forums like these to play the game, so we usually use the OOB rules unless there is a conflict or complete misunderstanding.

@naturesprank:

Yeah, gamerman, I am aware of that most recent update. We don’t use it, since it negates much of the fun of getting HBs in the first place and we have been playing with the published rules for over a year. My playing group doesn’t always like to implement the updated rules errata that we come across. You shouldn’t need to access forums like these to play the game, so we usually use the OOB rules unless there is a conflict or complete misunderstanding.

Yeah, right on.

Unfortunately, there are quite a few ambiguities in the rulebook.  I have had to ask several different rules questions.  If you guys can’t agree on a rule, just post your question in the FAQ and errata thread under AA50, and you’ll have an answer in no time.  Probably not a bad idea to scan through that thread and see the answers to lots of questions…

@gamerman01:

@naturesprank:

Yeah, gamerman, I am aware of that most recent update. We don’t use it, since it negates much of the fun of getting HBs in the first place and we have been playing with the published rules for over a year. My playing group doesn’t always like to implement the updated rules errata that we come across. You shouldn’t need to access forums like these to play the game, so we usually use the OOB rules unless there is a conflict or complete misunderstanding.

Yeah, right on.

Unfortunately, there are quite a few ambiguities in the rulebook.  I have had to ask several different rules questions.  If you guys can’t agree on a rule, just post your question in the FAQ and errata thread under AA50, and you’ll have an answer in no time.  Probably not a bad idea to scan through that thread and see the answers to lots of questions…

True on all counts, and we have used that resource numerous times. Especially as pertains to subs, the OOB rules are very vague.

Even using the updated best-of 2 dice rule for HBs, the Americans can send a lot of heat toward the Rome, Berlin and Karelia ICs when not doing huge dmg to ITA or GER fleets. It’s nice to know that you will probably (89% on 2 HB) roll a minimum of 3 per HB during SBRs after risking them to AA. It might not seem like enough, but we seem to agree that the best early pressure US can exert on Ger is via SBR.  And getting HBs definitely helps with that. It, along with LR air, seem to have the biggest impact on our games.