Which would have been a better Ally to Germany?

Alliance with Turkey would have allowed the Germans to knock out British oil fields by blitzing into Iraq, Syria and Persia.  And then there that other front against the Soviets (which is another possible reason the Turks wanted neutrality–the Russians stomped them in World War I).  It’s a miracle the Turks made an alliance with Great Britain right before the war–otherwise the world might be very different today.

Very true re. the U-Boot possibilities offered by Spain.  But Spain would also be a pretty good place for the Allies to open a front–entering the war on the Axis side gives the Allies a good excuse to attack.

I voted Turkey for the same location reasons already pointed out. I think just having Turkey joining the Axis would have been better then both Turkey and Spain joining. Spain was drained after it’s civil war and could not hope the guard it’s considerable coastline. The drain on Germany to help guard this would have been a detriment. Spain not being known for it’s overabunance of natural resources would not have made this drain very beneficial.

Turkey because if Turkey were with the Axis they could….
1. Get soldiers to the middle east and possible take out Cairo
2. Help fight off the soviets
3. Stop many more or even slow down the allies in Africa so the allies might not attack Italy.
So these reasons would change the war completely.

@ABWorsham:

What if Turkey joined the Axis and became another weak partner, another ‘Italy’. From my understand Turkey’s military consisted of infantry and artillery. With no tanks nor motorized infantry, Turkey would have trouble taking on the U.K and the U.S.S.R.

Both the UK commonwealth and Russia were at their breaking point and then beat the Germans back, all the Axis needed was a little extra push in those theaters in order to win, which could have been provided by the Turks.

@ABWorsham:

What if Turkey joined the Axis and became another weak partner, another ‘Italy’. From my understand Turkey’s military consisted of infantry and artillery. With no tanks nor motorized infantry, Turkey would have trouble taking on the U.K and the U.S.S.R.

Good enough reason to stay neutral.

When the war began, Turkey excused itself from earlier security commitments to Great Britain by pointing out that France could no longer fulfill its treaty obligations, and that the treaty did not obligate Turkey to participate in a war involving Russia.  When Germany conquered Greece and Yugoslavia, war with USSR certainly became more likely.  If the Turks were tempted to join the Axis, they also had to take into account that German enemies could attack from all sides, and the German army wouldn’t be in the region forever.

I voted for Spain for a couple of reasons.  1st and foremost they could have than taken out Gibralter securing the Med.  Secondly the Uboats would have had more docks.  3rd More airfields would have left the shipping lanes in the Atlantic far more vulnerable to attack.  You add another 1000 miles westward into the Atlantic to scout for subs or just outright attack them by air yourself.

Had Spain joined and done this Malta would have fallen from no supply.  Troops in Africa I believe could have pushed up and threatened the Caucus from the south (hell of a supply line on that one though).  England would have starved and I believe it would have been invaded.  If you don’t have the oil/parts you won’t be able to send fighters up to defend.

Operation Barbarossa would have been post poned for a year while Sea Lion was fought (and won) by the Germans.  With no force in the west (And all the resources of england to help) to defend against Hitler could have moved everything he had against Russia in 42 instead of 41.  Which would have avoided the 41 blizzard.

It would have been a much different war, much more favorable to the Germans.

The biggest mistake the Germans made was not insisting that the Japs attack Russia.  That one thing could have won them the war.  The Germans would  have won the battle of Stalingrad if they had and pushed onto the Caucus.

I’d like to think the Allies would have had the balls to invade Spain if they joined the Axis.  But perhaps if Spain had joined back in 1940, then they would have had the time to build up their army with German assistance and build fortifications on vulnerable coasts.

If the Allies could break through on the Iberian peninsula, then that have diverted a substantial amount of German armor.  The Allies would also have had to deal with the experienced though weak Spanish army, but if they established a base in Spain perhaps they could build a Spanish army of their own.

It seems like a place where a clever Allied offensive might be able to capture a large body of German troops, assuming the bulk of the German army is still tied up in Russia.

Famous historian John Keegan wrote some years ago, that Germany’s best possibility to win the war, was if Turkey joined them.

• The Mid-East oil. Iraq was pro-Germany, and if Turkey was allied to Germany, then Germany would get the oil. They had already build the Baghdad-express, an railroad from the oil wells in Iraq to Berlin. Fuel would no longer be an issue.

• Nice base for attack on the russian oil-fields in Baku. See a map. Its a pretty long way from Poland to Baku, and this is the reason Germany lost. But Turkey is adjacent both to Baku and Georgia. During WW I Germany and Georgia was allied, and they would be friends again, if the germans could make it there.

• Controll of the Black Sea would have been decesive. During WW I, Germany and Turkey was allied, and german battleships was operating in the Black Sea, and supporting the german army.

• During WW I, the brits tryed to attack and occupie the Dardanelles strait, but the mountain terrain favoured the Turkey defenders. So finally the brits was annhilated and drained, and had to give up. Turkey is a fort.

If Spain had joined Germany, then Portugal would had joined the Allies, and then the Allies would have attacked and utterly destroyed Spain. And even if Germany had won the battle, what was the benefit ? No oil in Spain. No oil in UK. In 1940 UK was a little island short of resources, actually the brits was dependet on convoys to survive. So if Germany did conquer UK, they would only get 50 000 000 more hungry mouths to feed, and a poor island with a lot of fog. Only USA would benefit from a weak UK. So what would be the big idea ?

It would have to be Turkey.  Spain was to weak after the Spanish Civil War for a conflict of this scale.  Turkey would also giver the Axis bases in the south of the Soviet Union and in the Middle east.

I agree with the turkey’s… Ah that is the people that voted for Turkey.  Especialy early in the war.  It would have put alot more pressure on the brits and maybe Romel could have pulled something off in Egypt.  Of course the aditional pressure on the USSR later would have been helpful the the axis cause.  I think Spain would have been another weaker Italy.

Of course all that has been said though, I thought I would add my $ .02

@dezrtfish:

I agree with the turkey’s… Ah that is the people that voted for Turkey.  Especialy early in the war.  It would have put alot more pressure on the brits and maybe Romel could have pulled something off in Egypt.  Of course the aditional pressure on the USSR later would have been helpful the the axis cause.  I think Spain would have been another weaker Italy.

Of course all that has been said though, I thought I would add my $ .02

I’m glad to see this fish come up for air

I have to go with Spain, though neither country would have ultimately tipped the balance.  Turkey is an intriguing alliance because one might think with the added Turkish pressure on the Caucasus front, that the Russians might have been permanantly driven from the area around the Crimea.  But there are a lot of negatives there as well.  Turkey was even less stable at the time than Spain, if thats possible, and its under equipped armies would not just have been fighting the Russians on that front.  The Allies were very quick to regain Vichy French Syria, put down the revolt in Iraq and Persia was occupied as well.  Turkey would then have been assailed on all fronts.  Perhaps it would have diverted some more forces, and maybe in the very early stages that could have made the difference, but I think Spain offers the tantalizing aspect of a conquest of Gibralter as well as further U-Boat bases for the Battle of the Atlantic.  It made the territory the Allies would have to capture in the West that much more comprehensive, plus the Spanish Nationalists had already been fighting with German and Italian planes, tanks, and artillery anyway.  Spain may not have held out long if invaded, but neither did Italy, yet it would have been, like Italy, extremely difficult to capture, with a great deal of mountain fighting and stretched supply lines.  All of this would have helped buy time for the Germans to press home a technilogical advantage like the Jet fighters.  Of course, the A-bomb is going trump all of those things, and the common consensus is the Germans were pretty far away from achieving a workable atom bomb of their own.

France was Germany’s best ally. They collaborated by far more than anybody else who got conquered even with some degree of enthusiasm. You almost wonder if they surrendered on purpose.

@Imperious:

France was Germany’s best ally. They collaborated by far more than anybody else who got conquered even with some degree of enthusiasm. You almost wonder if they surrendered on purpose.

lol :lol:
greatest post ever!
I’ll have to remember to give you +1 Karma after my 100th post

@Adlertag:

If Spain had joined Germany, then Portugal would had joined the Allies, and then the Allies would have attacked and utterly destroyed Spain. And even if Germany had won the battle, what was the benefit ? No oil in Spain. No oil in UK. In 1940 UK was a little island short of resources, actually the brits was dependet on convoys to survive. So if Germany did conquer UK, they would only get 50 000 000 more hungry mouths to feed, and a poor island with a lot of fog. Only USA would benefit from a weak UK. So what would be the big idea ?

I doubt Portugal would have joined the the Allies.  If you recall, Salazar, the right-wing dictator was in power there and had sent over 10,000 troops to fight with the Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War.  He would have certainly followed Franco’s lead and either joined as well, looking for some tempting colonial exploits in Africa or at the very least remained a fairly hostile neutral to the Allies.

@ABWorsham:

I think Spain would be more tempting of a choice had that country not been in recovery from a bloody long civil war. With a better navy than Turkey, first-class ports for U-Boats and Gibraltar for the grab Spain does look tempting.

It is because of the recent Spanish Civil war I choose Turkey, But that is the only reason.  Spain is a Very Nice Location for the U-Boat Fleets, and Makes a Nice refit and refuel Station fro the Kriegies without having to get to close to UK. Not mention Gibralter would be in German Hands and There for the Med would also belong to the Axis By Default.

Although Turkey would have been nice to have for Russian Operations, My Nazi Germany would have not Attacked Russia, Until Churchills Fat Head was on a Pole in the Middle of Berlin.  Sorry Ranting again…

@bigbadgoo:

@Adlertag:

If Spain had joined Germany, then Portugal would had joined the Allies, and then the Allies would have attacked and utterly destroyed Spain. And even if Germany had won the battle, what was the benefit ? No oil in Spain. No oil in UK. In 1940 UK was a little island short of resources, actually the brits was dependet on convoys to survive. So if Germany did conquer UK, they would only get 50 000 000 more hungry mouths to feed, and a poor island with a lot of fog. Only USA would benefit from a weak UK. So what would be the big idea ?

I doubt Portugal would have joined the the Allies.  If you recall, Salazar, the right-wing dictator was in power there and had sent over 10,000 troops to fight with the Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War.  He would have certainly followed Franco’s lead and either joined as well, looking for some tempting colonial exploits in Africa or at the very least remained a fairly hostile neutral to the Allies.

While I see your point that Salazar might have been tempted by fascist block overtures, it’s hard to imagine Portugal waging war on Great Britain, its ally for centuries.  Portugal had fought against the Germans in World War One.

Hard to say for sure but I think if Spain joins the Axis and UK invades Spain then Portugal either insists on neutrality or joins the Allies.

The only way Portugal joins the Axis is if they declared neutrality but Great Britain seizes the military assets anyway, giving Salazar an excuse to throw in with the Axis.

In any case it would have been a challenge to drum up popular support in either Spain or Portugal for the Axis war of conquest.  If the Allies gained control of a large portion of the peninsula, Franco’s regime could easily collapse.