Chechnya

@EmuGod:

Do modern Jews resemble anceint ones? In terms of religion, yes, very much so.

I’ll come to that later

As for Jesus versus Mohammed, you forgot a MAJOR difference between the two. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah by his actions, while Mohammed only said he was a prophet. The two are very different and both led to the respectives religions to be very different.

What has this (how christianity sees itself) to do with the other points (how Islam sees Judaism and Christianity, and how it behaves towards the two, and the history of Judaism)?
Your argument is better suited to claim that Islam has nothing to do with Judaism: Islam doesn’t wait for a Messiah, and says Mohammed was the last prophet (AFAIR, for the second claim). That makes these religions “very different”, in your way of arguing.

About not many people entering Judaism, this is because Judaism is very different from other religions such as Christianity regarding conversion. Judaism has no beliefs that one must be Jewish in order to go to heaven and it has no desire to see the world convert, quite the opposite from Christinaity’s missionary work. There is no such thing as Jewish missionaries, they are against the Jewish religion. To convert to Judaism, one must go through a long 3 year process that requires lost of learning and tests.

That was what i was referring too: Less “racial” change can be a reason for less change in internal social affairs, like the Hebrew language, especially when used for (see above, for how religion has not changed) religious affairs. Therefore, you back up my claim that Hebrew as a language hasn’t changed much since the hebrew people were dispersed over the (western known) world.

About similarities between Hebrew and Arabic, that’s very much because Jews lived in the Arabian Peninsula for centuries, some say since Biblical times, which is over 1600 years before Mohammed and Islam.

I would think that Jews lived around Judea in biblical times. Wether they “founded” a language there, sounds highly dubious. We would then have found a lot more archeological evidence for the impact of the Hebrew Culture in ancient Arabia. But if you look from the archeological point of view, then Judea was not much more than a peasant kingdom most of the time.
What you do on the other hand:
You ignore the Phoenicians again….

One important question about the languages:
Did Hebrew develop from Phoenician, or the other way round?

In the first case, all the rest you claim is more or less unimportant. The languages Hebrew and Arab obviously have a lot in common, still there are differences. This means that they will have been the same some long time ago.
Where do you think is that root?
Hebrew? Phoenician? Another language?

About Sumer, it is considered to have been the first civilization by some, so it’s very hard to know but my guess is no. The Jews lived in Babylon for a long time, as they were exiled there after the destruction of the first temple. Even when some returned, there was still a large Jewish community there.

Was Sumer before Babylon, what about the Assyrians etc.??? … I remember there were at least these three “high civilizations” popping up and going under at Euphrat and Tigris.
Of what importance is the Babylonian exile to the other points we talked?

Islaam evolved from Christianity I’m pretty sure.

Muslims celebrate Christmas. They believe Christ was an important figure in history, and in fact J.C. set the stage for Mohammad and friends. They believe J.C. just thought he was the Messiah, but in fact he was a prophet.

I think you got Falk’s question a bit wrong. Ethnically, how do jews from 3,000 years ago resemble modern day Jews? Very little.

I think i read something that said Islam evolved from Christianity more than it did from Judaims … during the weekend… if i only could remember where… sigh i am growing old ;)

This thread was really buried. I’m looking at my chart of ancient writings for you, F_alk. the oldest it goes is to the 10th century BCE, whrer it has both Hebrew and Phoenician writing, so I’m not sure which developed first. It’s possible that they developed very closely at around the same time, making it hard to differentiate.

On the issue of Islam, it has no roots in Christianity. Islam has focus on prayer, has its own dietary laws, recognizes Jewish prophets, and has many more things that were adopted from Judaism. There is nothing from what I’ve read (currently I’m studying Islam in relation of Jewish History) to show any resemblance to Christianity. Also, Christianity may or may not be viewed as a monotheistic religion. It depends on how you argue it. I would say that some branches of Christinaity are monotheistic but some, suchy as Catholicism (CC, please don’t kill me for this) are polytheistic.

why would i kill you for that EG? Remember - i’m a Mennonite. We’re pacifists - no killing.
Also i agree - the catholic tendency to venerate dead people is a little verging-on-polytheism-ish for me.
i’ve had this discussion many times w/ my (Catholic) g/f.

I dont think many Christians would take kindly to being called Polytheists and since you argue for the Christians, I assumed you wouldn’t like that either. iwas actually referring to the Trinity of God that the Catholics believe in when I said polytheism.

well, all “Christians” believe in the trinity . . . that’s not a polytheism so much (i actually believe that it is possible that various "pantheons of gods exists, but i also believe that there is one true "G"od). It’s more like the three faces of God. For example, one day i hope to be a father, a husband, a doctor, a friend, a scientist etc. All different aspects of myself combined into one being. Now the scientist side of me and the doctor side of me might have a different outlook, particularly with regard to the husband side of me. That’s fine - that doesn’t mean that i’m perpetually living in some kind of bizaare fugue state, but rather that i am blessed with different ways of relating to the world all wrapped in one person. Forgive the clumsy simile - its not intended to be a parable so much as to convey the simple side to my understanding of things.
Also i certainly do not speak for all Christians. I’m quite certain that dIfrenT (or however you do your capitalizations) would vehemently argue with me on certain points, as would other Christians. That’s fine. In the end it won’t matter.

@EmuGod:

On the issue of Islam, it has no roots in Christianity. Islam has focus on prayer, has its own dietary laws, recognizes Jewish prophets, and has many more things that were adopted from Judaism. There is nothing from what I’ve read (currently I’m studying Islam in relation of Jewish History) to show any resemblance to Christianity.

Well, it recognizes Christian prophets (the one important at least). I also don’t see what you mean by “focussing on prayer” and how christianity does not do that. And christianity did have its dietary laws, it just lost them over the time.
Once again: If Islam has no roots in christianity, how can you explain that JC in Islam is the one prohet who will return from the dead to lead the last battle??

@F_alk:

@EmuGod:

On the issue of Islam, it has no roots in Christianity. Islam has focus on prayer, has its own dietary laws, recognizes Jewish prophets, and has many more things that were adopted from Judaism. There is nothing from what I’ve read (currently I’m studying Islam in relation of Jewish History) to show any resemblance to Christianity.

Well, it recognizes Christian prophets (the one important at least). I also don’t see what you mean by “focussing on prayer” and how christianity does not do that. And christianity did have its dietary laws, it just lost them over the time.
Once again: If Islam has no roots in christianity, how can you explain that JC in Islam is the one prohet who will return from the dead to lead the last battle??

our dietary laws were mostly expunged in the book of Acts in an effort to rid Christianity of laws that took away from the basic message.

@F_alk:

@EmuGod:

On the issue of Islam, it has no roots in Christianity. Islam has focus on prayer, has its own dietary laws, recognizes Jewish prophets, and has many more things that were adopted from Judaism. There is nothing from what I’ve read (currently I’m studying Islam in relation of Jewish History) to show any resemblance to Christianity.

Well, it recognizes Christian prophets (the one important at least). I also don’t see what you mean by “focussing on prayer” and how christianity does not do that. And christianity did have its dietary laws, it just lost them over the time.
Once again: If Islam has no roots in christianity, how can you explain that JC in Islam is the one prohet who will return from the dead to lead the last battle??

Simple, Islam believes in him as a prophet of Allah but did not adopt any of his teachings.

shouldent this be in the existance of god forum?

Then let’s get back to Chechnya! Anyone here ever been to Grozny? My uncle was in Tbilisi in Georgia, and had an interesting story of what it’s like there.

moms been there

The only places that I can think of that are probably worse to live in than the former USSR are most of Africa and the Arab countries.

well, all “Christians” believe in the trinity . . . that’s not a polytheism so much (i actually believe that it is possible that various "pantheons of gods exists, but i also believe that there is one true "G"od). It’s more like the three faces of God. For example, one day i hope to be a father, a husband, a doctor, a friend, a scientist etc. All different aspects of myself combined into one being. Now the scientist side of me and the doctor side of me might have a different outlook, particularly with regard to the husband side of me. That’s fine - that doesn’t mean that i’m perpetually living in some kind of bizaare fugue state, but rather that i am blessed with different ways of relating to the world all wrapped in one person. Forgive the clumsy simile - its not intended to be a parable so much as to convey the simple side to my understanding of things.
Also i certainly do not speak for all Christians. I’m quite certain that dIfrenT (or however you do your capitalizations) would vehemently argue with me on certain points, as would other Christians. That’s fine. In the end it won’t matter.

hmmm… are you sure you are’nt Hindu :) ? You sound more like henotheistic than monotheist. BTW this is’nt an insult, i think Hinduism is the least illogical religion (or maybe buddhism).

@cystic:

well, all “Christians” believe in the trinity . . . that’s not a polytheism so much (i actually believe that it is possible that various "pantheons of gods exists, but i also believe that there is one true "G"od). It’s more like the three faces of God. For example, one day i hope to be a father, a husband, a doctor, a friend, a scientist etc. All different aspects of myself combined into one being. Now the scientist side of me and the doctor side of me might have a different outlook, particularly with regard to the husband side of me. That’s fine - that doesn’t mean that i’m perpetually living in some kind of bizaare fugue state, but rather that i am blessed with different ways of relating to the world all wrapped in one person. Forgive the clumsy simile - its not intended to be a parable so much as to convey the simple side to my understanding of things.
Also i certainly do not speak for all Christians. I’m quite certain that dIfrenT (or however you do your capitalizations) would vehemently argue with me on certain points, as would other Christians. That’s fine. In the end it won’t matter.

Well, I personally believe the trinity is polytheistic. I believein one God, a God that cannot be separated. Still, when you have many faces to yourself, you are still one. you cannot be separated. I cant go and visit the father CC without visiting the doctor CC because they are one. On the same note, I cannot say that God has many “faces” to him, because God himself is one being. If God is one being, then he cannot be worshipped as though he were three different beings.

@EmuGod:

@cystic:

well, all “Christians” believe in the trinity . . . that’s not a polytheism so much (i actually believe that it is possible that various "pantheons of gods exists, but i also believe that there is one true "G"od). It’s more like the three faces of God. For example, one day i hope to be a father, a husband, a doctor, a friend, a scientist etc. All different aspects of myself combined into one being. Now the scientist side of me and the doctor side of me might have a different outlook, particularly with regard to the husband side of me. That’s fine - that doesn’t mean that i’m perpetually living in some kind of bizaare fugue state, but rather that i am blessed with different ways of relating to the world all wrapped in one person. Forgive the clumsy simile - its not intended to be a parable so much as to convey the simple side to my understanding of things.
Also i certainly do not speak for all Christians. I’m quite certain that dIfrenT (or however you do your capitalizations) would vehemently argue with me on certain points, as would other Christians. That’s fine. In the end it won’t matter.

Well, I personally believe the trinity is polytheistic. I believein one God, a God that cannot be separated. Still, when you have many faces to yourself, you are still one. you cannot be separated. I cant go and visit the father CC without visiting the doctor CC because they are one. On the same note, I cannot say that God has many “faces” to him, because God himself is one being. If God is one being, then he cannot be worshipped as though he were three different beings.

exactly what i am saying.

@EmuGod:

@F_alk:

Once again: If Islam has no roots in christianity, how can you explain that JC in Islam is the one prohet who will return from the dead to lead the last battle??

Simple, Islam believes in him as a prophet of Allah but did not adopt any of his teachings.

So, they have no roots, but believe he is a prophet, and give christians the same status of “people of the book” like jews… but have roots only in judaism?
No, you still don’t convince me.

@EmuGod:

The only places that I can think of that are probably worse to live in than the former USSR are most of Africa and the Arab countries.

no do you know wick is worsee,

THE US