Subs retreat instead of submerge

@Cernel said in Revised Submerge/Withdraw Order:

This simple different wording would have probably made all crystal clear, and saved this whole (and other!) discussions, as well as my question.

I suppose that those dicussions lead to a clearer wording in LHTR and are one reason why submerging submarines had been moved to another step during ‘Conduct Combat’ starting from and including the Anniversary ruleset.

The attacker retreats before the defender submerges, in both OOB and LHTR.

This is clearly spelled out in the LHTR rules.  However, since the sequence is never specifically stated in the OOB rules, the general principle that the attacker acts first must be applied.

Another thought would be about which is going to be easier to replace for you country.  Subs are great fodder and replacing them is easier on the pocketbook than FIG’s or CV’s, and especially if you are Japan.  US can afford to usually replace that kind of loss, but most other countries can’t.

For 72 IPC’s, I’d go with a mix like ones mentioned earlier, with DD’s, CV’s (+FIG) & SS’s.  If split over a couple rounds, maybe SS/DD first in case of early strike

Right.  That is legal for a FRIENDLY landing, but not an amphibious assault.

And it is true that aircraft operating alone get to fire on enemy SUBs ONCE before the SUB can submerge (in revised anyway).

Personally, I think that the SUB should be able to do its opening fire step as a “submerge” against an air only attack.  At a bare minimum, allow the SUB to roll its “to hot” die, and if they hit, they submerge before the aircraft could attack them.

Historically, SUBs were killed by DSTs, not aircraft.  Aircraft inflicted SUB casualties were pretty low for most of the war for all sides.

@axis_roll:

@Krieghund:

In LHTR, the attacker’s choice to retreat is made before the defender’s choice is made to submerge.  In the box rules, the choices are made simultaneously.

how does THAT work?

Not very well.

@axis_roll:

Do you each write down your attack/withdraw perogative on paper and show it at the same time… I mean, how ELSE could you do it simultaneously?

That’s about the only way I can think of.  As TimTheEnchanter pointed out, this is an ambiguity in the rules.  There is no FAQ entry, and as far as I know no “official” ruling on this, and that’s why I answered the way I did.  My personal inclination would be to follow the “natural” order of things and let the attacker decide first, as in LHTR.  If anyone cares enough, I can ask Larry Harris, though I suspect his answer would agree with LHTR (for obvious reasons).  Just one more reason to use LHTR rather than the OOB rules.

There was another thread where it was discussed whether attacking subs could retreat, or only submerge.  Just wanted to make it clear they can retreat with the other attacking units.  No harm meant……

Yes.

http://dicey.net/revised/viewtopic.php?t=73

About half way down, the first 2 or 3 paragraphs on non-combat movement are explicit.

Octo, we always play a sneak shot kills a battle ship (scapa flow)