Map for 1941 axis strategy

@andrewaagamer said in Allies strategy:

@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:

Okay, but how do you get to Karelia to hold it? It can only buy two units a turn to place there as Russia, and to get from Moscow to Karelia requires going through either Belorussia (a dreaded “$1 territory” that, according to you, should not be fought for) or Archangel. I suppose you could do the later, but if you’re willing to fight for Archangel, why not Belorussia, which directly borders Moscow and is on the German’s critical path from Berlin -> Moscow?

As I mentioned you stack Archangel on R1 and buy two armor. You could buy three if you drop the two artillery down to infantry but personally I like the artillery for Caucasus for the southern defense/push.

Also why TANKs? ART are the more economical purchase for offense because they boost the firepower of paired INF.
2 INF/2 ART = 14 IPC, 4 HP, 8 Punch (offense and defense)
compare with 3 TANK = 15 IPC, 3 HP, 9 Punch (offense and defense)
I understand mixing in TANKs if you’ve hit > 35 IPC (the point you’d be able to build 5 INF/5 ART), but for the bulk of the game I don’t see your income getting that high. If USSR is consistently getting over 35 IPC then you’re “winning” (which lines up with my original post that says USSR should start adding TANKs once they’ve reached a winning position.

Yes, the two INF/ART pair are a better offensive buy but the two armor is a better defensive buy AND more importantly the mobility gets the armor to Karelia on R2.

Going purely by the numbers, INF/ART are better than TANKs odds-wise because they have more punch and more HP for less money. However, when you start factoring in your limited deployment spots for USSR (10-12), things start getting different. At that point, since USSR can generally count on getting their 10 IPC bonus for no foreign units + hold Archangel, it might be feasible to mix in a TANK or two. To me, it’s all about whether USSR’s income is over that 35 IPC level (since at 35 IPC exactly, you can buy 5 INF/5 ART).

@andrewaagamer said in Allies strategy:

@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:

As you say, rather than defending Karelia directly, USSR can stack a neighboring territory and go for a counterattack on R2 (when the German Air Force won’t be present). Let’s look into this scenario:
USSR can stack either Belorussia or Archangel to try setting up a dead-zone on Archangel. If they stack Belorussia, you can dive on their stack with extremely variable odds depending how G1 went + how USSR distributed its forces. Assuming that they either stacked Archangel or you just don’t like the odds at Belorussia, you can walk into Karelia here no problem. Using your R1 build, the biggest Russian response I was able to get was 12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. the German force of 8 INF/2 ART/6 TANK. Of course, the German INF number is variable based on G1, but lets break down the calcs:
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 9 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 14% USSR win/1% draw/73% German win - Average result = 6 German Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 8 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 26% USSR win/1% draw/73% German win - Average result = 5 German Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 7 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 40% USSR win/1% draw/58% German win - Average result = 2 USSR Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 6 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 56% USSR win/1% draw/58% German win - Average result = 3 USSR Tanks survive
So, if Germany had particularly poor luck in the opening, then USSR can block an advance into Karelia on G2, but even in the scenarios where USSR wins, the odds are effectively a coin flip.
Germany can likely hold Karelia for G2 and G3, but by G4 they may need to withdraw in the face of UK’s naval buildup + how the rest of the game is going. At that point we’re way too far out to make concrete calculations.

Well that is a very interesting opening. Do you vacate Norway completely? What about the fighter that attacked the SZ2 BB? Do you leave it undefended?

Conditionally. It depends on how many INF Germany loses in the Baltic States fight in-particular. If things go absolutely sideways and they lose 2 INF then Norway needs to be 100% evacuated. I understand that this risks losing the SZ2 FTR to a British air attack but they’d need to send either 1 FTR/1 BOMB or send in a loaded transport from Canada + 1-2 FTR). If UK sends forces to Norway it (hopefully) means they’re missing out on either sinking the Baltic Fleet or are delayed a turn in sending their BOMB towards the center of the map (which is a more optimal position for it). Ideally, no INF are lost and you only need to send 1 of the 2 INF to Finland.

If you were to push that many infantry against Karelia than yes, it would take a bit for Russia to take it back. Also, your 4 armor + 1 infantry against East Poland is interesting. I guess you don’t worry about the 16% chance you lose an armor there?

Not particularly. That’s like saying don’t try for Egypt G1 because you only have a ~76% chance to actually take the territory (my math might be bad on that calc because I don’t have the setup in front of me right now), If that chance actually occurred taking/holding Karelia would probably be a bust and you’d have to shift to a different game plan.

Of course, if you are sending that much firepower north than as Russia I would push south to get to Bulgaria and the Russian $10 NO.

That possibility is part of while 4 of the TANKs go to East Poland instead of 100% all-in at Baltic States. If on R1 USSR positions its forces in either a balanced position or with a disposition towards the south, Germany is free to adjust how many troops its sending to Caucasus. Some of Italy’s started forces can also be used to plug the gap, as you don’t need to start spending 100% of their income on defending Rome/France until ~Round 3.

@andrewaagamer said in Allies strategy:

@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:

You know AA50’s game flow very well (as demonstrated earlier in this thread in a post I didn’t respond to). Japan is the one who ultimately takes Moscow in most games rather than Germany. The role of Germany/Italy is to make as much money as possible during the early game and then turtle until Japan wins the game. My main gripe with NOs (and your Russian strategy of not actively fighting for space on the board) is that the easy money Germany gets makes this task much too easy.

I think we are in agreement the Allies definitely don’t want Germany taking and holding Karelia and/or Caucasus for any length of time; that is bad news. Our styles are different. I want lots of ground troops to eventually knock them out and your style seems to push for a faster more aggressive strategy that does not have as much firepower in the long run but has more in the short run.

Pretty much. The way I see it is that if USSR can punch Germany in the nose enough times during the opening turns, then their income will be stunted enough that UK/US have an easier time winning the war on their side of the map. Even if this causes USSR to lose enough units over time that Japan has an easier time taking Moscow, the Allies can usually still win as long as they take Berlin on or before the round that Japan takes Moscow.

@xlome_00 Sea Lion is one of those attacks where the threat is mightier than the execution. If you buy a carrier for the Baltic Fleet on G1, that’s a reasonable purchase anyway to protect your supply lines to Norway/Finland/Leningrad/Baltics. If you move the German Med transport to the central Med, it is protected by the Italian fleet and can reinforce Libya, which is a reasonable move anyway. If you then bring the Italian fleet to take Gibraltar and retake Morocco, that helps score your NOs, so that’s a normal attack. So all of these preparatory moves can be done with minimal cost to the standard Axis war effort.

But then the American bomber cannot sink the German transport without landing in either Egypt (where it will die on a G2 Egypt attack) or Caucasus (where it spoils the Russian NO.)

If they leave your Med transport alive, you move it to Western Med on G2 where Italian fleet protects it again, build a second transport in Baltic on G2 plus an extra plane, and now you are threatening UK with 3 inf, 3 tank, 1 CA, 4 ftr, 1 bmr on a hypothetical G3 sea lion.

UK can of course defend against this, but they will have to build a fat infantry stack in London instead of factories, ships, or air power. This could cost them the Atlantic fleet or at least force them to retreat it back to Canada; if they built a factory in Africa / India, they might lose it because they cannot afford to build units there on a critical turn. Meanwhile those infantry in London will just sit there inefficiently for several turns because there are not enough transports to ship them anywhere, and not enough warships to protect the Atlantic fleet in a forward position.

Your second Baltic transport is reasonably useful for shipping inf/art to Leningrad, and the extra fighter can of course be used for trading on the eastern front, defending France, etc. as usual.

So you never actually attack London in an AA50 game – you just quietly threaten to attack it, thereby forcing the Allies to waste much more money on defense than you spent on creating the threat.

@Veqryn:

@cts17:

Reviving this a bit, I think that a 6 IPC bid is sufficent. Two infantry to Egy is often enough.

bids generally don’t allow more than 1 unit to a territory….

at least, that is what i’ve always been told

(a max of 1 unit to a territory, and you must have units in that territory already)

That’s a ‘house rule’ from the Triple A lobby, from what I understand.  Usually bid limits are listed with how the bidding works (i.e.  all cash (no immediate units), 1 unit per territory, etc).

In other words, bid rules are all over the board.

Of course, I’m not saying that those armor HAVE to head down there, but it DOES give the Japanese a second thought, especially with an American fleet proceeding into their home waters.

I will usually only build extra naval units with Germany if there is some sort of core to build them around. Be that a surviving cruiser or battleship. If I still have one of these in turn two or three I might build some subs or even a destroyer. Also the casualty rate on the Eastern Front cant be too high, because then I will buy extra land units instead.

So basically, it depends on how well the Allies play and how well my navy holds up. Its a opportunistic investment at best and I never considered it a feasible strategy for Germany really.

a good Russian strategy depends on what the Allies are doing overall. everything i post is assuming Dice because dice allows the probablity factor unlike Low Luck.
Also it is important that the Brittsh will kill the Itlian fleet R2 or R3
KGF
Buy 4 tanks 1 fighter you have enough inf for turn one not to buy any.
A basic strategy I like is to give up Karelia leaving one man behind and regroup in Arch(with AA gun from Kar) then R2 counter
As well as take back the Ukriane R1.
my buy round two varies but if i can one figther that  being the last one i will buy for Russia heres how i would get the money if going for a fighter buy R2, on R1 i attack Finland with Kar if doable and take ukraine. leaving baltic states and East Poland to the Germans + getting your bouns  for no allies in your country which is a given R1, giving Russia 35 Ipcs on hand. then buy my 4inf 2 art 1 tank 1 fighter giving me two fighters to swap territories with. Fighters act as permanent tanks and don’t die when the territory you just took is recaptured, From R3 out i buy twice as many inf as i do art or tanks and i try not to buy more than two tanks that way i get the most units down so i can hold my capital and still have enough boots to swap with, when The Japs arrive on scene i pick my battles wisely. now at this point the Brittish and the US should be set and start destroying Germany by round 4 which means less pressure against Russia,R5 should be the last German push then you focus mostly on the Japs. russia’s goal now is to swap persia and kill the intial Jap force that will be coming north which won’t be there in force until Round 6. All they have to do by R7 is survive swap novo, persia, Kazak, and Evenki there shouldn’t be any German/ Italian Offense at this point and if there is your done for.

KJF
I do the bury stack and along with a India IC (KJF) is going to be built by the Britts I would go with 4tanks and a fighter(or 2inf 1 art) 3 tanks in Caucus R1 then R2 back the inda IC with those three tanks, so India has 4 britt inf 1 britt art and AA gun and 3 rus tanks. versus 4 jap planes and 4 inf Defender wins 73% with 2.78 units left (three tanks). If at all possible I bring those three tanks back R3 by then jap should be buying navy to fight the  U.S.  A KJF means to me three tanks a turn by the britts in India and the Britts killing the Itlian fleet, along with the Britts fighting for Karelia via SZ 4. I then try to back chinghai with one inf a turn from russia.
My Russia KJF then starts to look more like my KGF but now there is no Japs and all you have to do is just swap one teritory away.

In all Russian Strategies it is Key that all of your offensive battles take place at least three teritories away from Germany that way you don’t get your guys killed by a spawning tank/German airforce combo.

Also, Reading this I see alittle bit about a navy and I know for a fact that no surface ships that Russia builds will stand to a german airforce. and subs seem like a waste to me.

I have yet to try to the bomber strat because I like the fighter defence over the bombers because russian offense isn’t always an option especially if the Italians try a one two punch with the germans and stop the Russian one man blitz blockades.

@bugoo:

‘The problem is this sets up a deadly dance.’

:-o

Here’s the way I usually approach the Axis in the first AA.  I think it translates over into the 2nd AA as well.

1.  You start off poor so keep your expensive units.  Don’t throw them away for short term gains, because once they’re gone, they’re gone.  You can’t afford to rebuild them. 
2.  Take out the British Navy, all that’s possible without losing airforce… or if you do lose airforce, make sure that England is losing something like a battleship.  If they can keep the fleet they’ll be able to land all along the coast.  This is bad, and is pretty much the end of the game for germany.  It will mean you’ll need to defend along the coast, plus have either some airforce or tanks ready for a counter attack… because if they want something, they can take it with the RAF getting in the attack.
3.  Expand fast, but try to only lose infanty in battles.  If when you caluclate odds you’re calculating that you’ll lose tanks/fighters… it’s not worth it.
4.  With the new game, study the bonus production criteria… aim to take it away from your opponent.  It’s like a guide to what your opponent will do, plus it shows you how to stop them… for example…

Japan:  Has to take an English territory in it’s first turn or England gets extra production.
Germany:  It’s about either Karelia or Caucassus.  Take one or the other, but try to take one at all costs.
Italy:  Brazil is undefended and the USA gets extra production, if it’s available and undefended, might as well nab it.