How do subs work?

@Perry:

Now, are the following statements true:
Please correct me, and I’ll update the original post,

Movement:

• Subs move two spaces
• Subs may pass through enemy navies, as long as no enemy destroyer is present, in the SZ that the sub passes through
• Subs never block movement of enemy fleets. Even un-escorted Transports, may freely pass through a SZ containing a sub-only navy

Combat (both Attack & Defense)

• A sub can NEVER hit a ftr or bmb
• Ftrs/bmbs can ONLY hit a Sub, if a friendly DD is included in the current combat round

All true.

@Perry:

• Subs have a “first fire” ability, in the first round of combat only. Any naval units hit by “sub first fire”, may NOT roll Combat dice during this combat. A DD present with the enemy force, negates this ability.

This was initially thought to be the case.  However, since that time it’s been clarified that subs get a first strike in every round of combat in which no enemy destroyer is present.

@Perry:

Special Defense Features
Feature 1 ALL surface ships can engage a defending Sub. But if no DD is present with the attacking force, the SS can simply submerge before combat.

True.

@Perry:

Feature 2 Attacking Capital ships may entirely IGNORE defending Subs, if they are mixed with defending capital ships. Thus, a defending navy cannot take subs as casualties and cannot roll for the defending subs, unless the Attacker grants the defender permission to do so.

Not true.  If you attack a sea zone, you attack all units in that sea zone.  The only way you can move into or through a sea zone and not attack enemy units in it is if those enemy units consist entirely of transports and/or subs.  Even under those circumstances, if you choose to attack, you attack all of the enemy units there.

@Perry:

Special Attack Features
Feature 1The defender MUST fight any and all attacking subs. They cannot elect to NOT fight attacking subs (…as to compare with Feature 2 under Defense) :?

Submerging

• If a sub, accompanied by friendly units or not, engage in Combat,  defense or offense it may Submerge before any dice are rolled, as long as no DD is present in the enemy force.
• Submerging may take place on ANY combat round. Not only the first.
• Once a Sub submerges, it may NOT re-surface for the entire duration of the combat

True.

@Perry:

• When does a Sub re-surface, if it submerges on Defense?
• When does a Sub re-surface, if it submerges on Offense?

Subs, whether attacking or defending, resurface at the end of the combat in which they submerged.

I thought I read somewhere (this is different from Revised) that airplanes can only spot subs if there is a friendly (not allied) destroyer present. So for example American bombers cannot spot German Subs, when there is only a UK destroyer present in the sz.

Is this true or not?

@JohnBarbarossa:

I thought I read somewhere (this is different from Revised) that airplanes can only spot subs if there is a friendly (not allied) destroyer present. So for example American bombers cannot spot German Subs, when there is only a UK destroyer present in the sz.

Is this true or not?

It’s true.  When you attack a sea zone that already has units in it belonging to your ally, those units don’t participate in the battle in any way.  That includes destroyers enabling air units to hit subs.

“Special Defense Features
Feature 1 ALL surface ships can engage a defending Sub. But if no DD is present with the attacking force, the SS can simply submerge before combat.”

Example: 1 BB attacks 1 sub, BB rolls a 5 and misses, the sub can then choose to stay and fight or submerge? Or if the BB attacks 1 sub and rolls a 4 or less, the sub is not hit if he chooses to submerge?

This is slightly better than AAR, this means that if the attacker does not include a DD with the attacking force, the subs can always choose not fight, and thereby survive every combat if not attacked by DD’s.

Conclusion: Attacker needs DD’s when attacking subs.

Which means submarines are not completely useless.  They’d be a welcome addition of units to give you the coup-de-gras before attacking the enemy.  Since your submarines attack at a 2 and cost 6 IPC you could, feasibly, have a fleet strong enough to withstand the enemy’s attack, build submarines (say 42 IPC becomes 7 Submarines) adding 14 Punch to your fleet and attack with that on your next round if he doesn’t retreat out of range.

@Subotai:

“Special Defense Features
Feature 1 ALL surface ships can engage a defending Sub. But if no DD is present with the attacking force, the SS can simply submerge before combat.”

Example: 1 BB attacks 1 sub, BB rolls a 5 and misses, the sub can then choose to stay and fight or submerge? Or if the BB attacks 1 sub and rolls a 4 or less, the sub is not hit if he chooses to submerge?

Since subs fire before all other units when there is no enemy destroyer present (first strike), subs may choose to submerge before any dice are rolled at all.  The only way to guarantee even getting a shot at a sub when attacking it is to have a destroyer in the attacking force.  Of course, the defending sub can choose to stand and fight when there is no attacking destroyer, but I don’t see that happening very often with subs defending on a 1.

So does one DD destroy the abilitity of all subs in a SZ to submerge, or is it just on a 1 to 1 basis?

Is this confirmed in the new AA50 rules?

@Perry:

@Constantinople:

So does one DD destroy the abilitity of all subs in a SZ to submerge, or is it just on a 1 to 1 basis?

One DD = No SS in the SZ may submerge

That’s correct.  A single destroyer cancels all enemy subs’ submerge and first strike abilities.

Let’s say 2 Japanese SUBs attack a SZ containing just 2 American SUBs…

Since there is no DD present, do either the Attacking SUBs or Defending SUBs get a chance to submerge prior to Combat?
Or do we have the traditional situation where Opening Fire occurs simultaneously for both sides and nobody can submerge until after 1 round of Combat.

I guess what Im asking more specifically is what is the Combat Sequence with regards to these items…

Attacker Rolls Opening Fire
Defender Rolls Opening Fire
Attacker has Option to Submerge
Defender has Option to Submerge
Attacker Removes Opening Fire Casualties
Defender Removes Opening Fire Casualties

Subs may either submerge or fire.  The sequence is:

1.  Attacking subs submerge (or not)
2.  Defending subs submerge (or not)
3.  Unsubmerged attacking subs fire
4.  Unsubmerged defending subs fire
5.  Casualties are removed
6.  Attacking non-sub units fire
7.  Defending non-sub units fire
8.  Casualties are removed

If there are enemy destroyers, subs fire at the same time other units do.  There is no Opening Fire step.

@Krieghund:

Subs may either submerge or fire.  The sequence is:

1.  Attacking subs submerge (or not)
2.  Defending subs submerge (or not)
3.  Unsubmerged attacking subs fire
4.  Unsubmerged defending subs fire
5.  Casualties are removed
6.  Attacking non-sub units fire
7.  Defending non-sub units fire
8.  Casualties are removed

If there are enemy destroyers, subs fire at the same time other units do.  There is no Opening Fire step.

Thanks Kreighund,

I like the ability of the Defending SUBs to submerge prior to combat
SUBs attacking SUBs always seemed strange  :-)

I would have liked opposing rolls.

Destroyers roll at 3 or less to find the submarine
Submarines roll at 2 or less to avoid detection (3 or less if they are super submarines, assuming that’s still available.)

If both succeed, then the unit who rolled better wins.  Undetected submarines can fire and submerge.

This would allow submarines to “evade” attacking destroyers.

1)  Means there is no chance to attack and sink a sub without a allied DD?

It simply submerges witout a 1st round of combat? Can’t believe that…

(I will build russian subs in the black sea! :evil:)

2)  Subs are able to cross hostile seazones containig no enemy destroyers?

Even if subs are somewhat improved from AAR, they are still not good enough. The problem with AA50 rules is that the attacker needs only one DD to kill enemy subs.
Although Germany shouldnt be able to build a mighty navy like UK+US without being punished by Russians, like it is now, not only the starting Kriegsmarine in the Baltic will be sunk asap, the subs will not survive either, because with one single DD in the attacking force UK will easily kill all German subs at the start of the game. Germany cannot build any new subs either cause they will not survive to the next round.

Enemy subs and transports can’t prevent shore bombardement.

I need no naval battle to start amphibious landings if there are only enemy subs or transports.

Is this correct?

Correct.  Your fleet can choose to either attack the subs and/or transports or do shore bombardment.  It can’t do both.

@Krieghund:

Correct.  Your fleet can choose to either attack the subs and/or transports or do shore bombardment.  It can’t do both.

hm actually you cannot chose i think? according to LHTR, all sea units engage together in a sea battle. so you can build a sub in order to avoid a gazzillion offshore bombardments.

edit: on page 12 it says: “Offshore bombardment can only be done from a sea zone that was friendly at the beginning of the turn”

or did i miss an update on that?

@Sondrax:

@Krieghund:

Correct.  Your fleet can choose to either attack the subs and/or transports or do shore bombardment.  It can’t do both.

hm actually you cannot chose i think? according to LHTR, all sea units engage together in a sea battle. so you can build a sub in order to avoid a gazzillion offshore bombardments.

edit: on page 12 it says: “Offshore bombardment can only be done from a sea zone that was friendly at the beginning of the turn”

or did i miss an update on that?

You are correct - for LHTR.  However, this is the forum for the new A&A Anniversary game that’s coming out in two weeks.  Things are going to be a little bit different.  :-)

See the AA50 Fact Sheet for more information.

yeah, but i actually dont see any info on that?
only that each bombardment dice must come hand in hand with a land unit.
other than whats mentioned to be new there… i thought LHTR would build the ground rules.

then again, i guess that new rule already makes enough sense so that this old workaround isnt needed anylonger :)