AA50 Rules Errata and Q+A

@mcshoo:

Sorry if this question is redundant, but my search function isn’t working and for some reason I can’t pull up the FAQ.  I read through the first dozen or so pages.

If you capture a territory with an AA gun, it becomes yours.  Can you then move it during non-combat?

This came up when Germany was attacking Karillia and got it, and wanted to weaken it’s defenses for when it may need to take it again.

Thanks

No, captured AA guns cannot be moved until the next turn, assuming the player doesn’t lose control of it and the territory and has to recapture it again.

If Germany recaptures Manchuria, Kiangsu, or Frindo after these territories were taken by the Allies, who gets ownership?  Germany or Japan?

Mandchuria and Kiangsu belongs to China, so that will be for Germany.

FIC belongs to Japan, so except if Tokyo fell of course, this comes back to Japan.

Kreighund,

Here’s an interesting situation for you.

A Japanese fleet attacks a combined Allied fleet (UK and US) in the Atlantic.
Japan attacks with 1 cv, 5 jet fighters and 1 bb against 1 tr, 3 ss, 3 dd, 1 cv, and 2 fig.
The goal is to destroy the single US transport.
Because Japan has no dd, the 3 Allied subs all have Surprise Strike AND the Japanese jet fighters MAY NOT hit the Subs.

Round 1 Surprise Strike hits once, which damages the Jap bb.
Round 1 continued Jap fighters hit 5 and the bb hits for a total of 6 hits, 5 of which may not be applied to subs.  The Allied fleet gets 3 more hits (these 3 are in addition to the 1 sub surprise strike hit which was applied to the bb.) These 3 new hits may be applied to anything.
Round 1 casualties.  Jap - bb damaged, 3 jets downed.  Allies - 1 ss (from the bb hit), 3 dd, 1 cv, 1 fig.
This leaves for round 2 the following:
Japs - 1 cv, 2 jets, 1 bb (damaged) vs Allies 1 tr, 2 ss, 1 fig
Round 2 the 2 subs surprise strikes miss.  The Japs only get 1 jet hit which may ONLY be applied to the remaining Allied fighter, and the Allied fighter misses.
This leaves for Round 3 the following:
Japs - 1 cv, 2 jet, 1 bb (damaged) vs Allies - 1 tr, 2 ss

At this point, I would like to retreat my ships to a neighboring sea zone which contains German naval ships and continue the fight with only my jets which, since they can’t hit the subs, and the subs can’t hit the jets, the jets could ONLY hit the transport, and then the battle would be over with the Allies holding the sea zone with 2 subs (and nothing else) and the Japs retreating with 1 cv, 2 fig, 1 bb saved.
–—To my understanding of the rules though, a partial naval retreat (leaving the air units but retreating the naval units) is not allowed, so if I want to sink the Allied transport, then I MUST attack again with all 4 of my Jap units, which will also subject the cv and the bb to the subs’ Surprise Strikes.

So, We go to round 3 – Japs 1 cv, 2 jet, 1 bb vs 1 tr, 2 ss
The subs surprise strike hits once, sinking the Jap cv.
The Japs 2 jets and 1 bb fire, but only the bb gets a hit, and since it may hit the subs, the hit is applied to a sub.
This leaves for Round 4 the following:
Japs - 2 jet, 1 bb (damaged) vs Allies - 1 tr, 1 ss
The sub’s surprise strike misses, and the Japs get 1 hit from a Jap jet.  This hit MAY NOT be applied to the Allied sub since I have no attacking dd, so my understanding of the rules is that it MUST be applied to the Allied transport.
This leaves for Round 5 the following:
Japs - 2 jet, 1 bb (damaged) vs Allies - 1 ss (only)
The Japs choose (wisely) to retreat to the neighboring sea zone, leaving 1 solitary Allied sub in the contested sea zone.

The question now is as follows:

1)  COULD I have retreated my naval ships at the beginning of round 3, leaving only my 2 jets in the battle so as to sink the transport?  I don’t believe so, but I’d like a confirmation.

2)  Is my single jet hit in round 4 applied to the transport because there are no other eligible targets?

3)  Did I play this out correctly?  In other words, is my battle turn sequence and choosing casualties correct?

4)  My opponent says that he has never experienced this situation before, but he believes that I must destroy the sub first before destroying the transport, but he’s not for certain, so that’s why we’re getting this ruling.  If he is correct, then what would happen if we went to Round 5, and his final sub’s surprise strike hit my bb, and my fighters both missed?  Would we go to Round 6, with 2 jets firing at 1 sub, but both sides NEVER hitting?

This is an actual game situation which I am waiting for the answer.

If anyone is interested, this is the page where this battle occurred.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=18583.315

Thanks in advance for the answer.

he subs do not have to be destroyed before the transport. Once the attacker can no longer hit the subs, ie. just air left the transports are toast as there are no longer units that can defend them. See page 19 in the manual. I think one of teh FAQs also cleared up the wording for the side bar that is on page 19 a bit as it says submerged submarines and air units.

This is from one of the FAQs that cleared up the poor wording.

Q. On page 29 it says that your aircraft may hit enemy submarines if you have a destroyer in the
sea zone, but it doesn’t say anywhere in the rules that aircraft can’t hit submarines without a
destroyer present.  Do you always need a destroyer in a battle in order for your air units to hit
enemy subs?
A. Yes.  Air units can only hit subs if there is a friendly destroyer on the battle board, otherwise hits made
by air units must be applied to units other than submarines.  If you’re the attacker, destroyers in the same
sea zone belonging to your ally don’t count, since they’re not involved in the battle.

Here is the crux of the matter.

1)  I would like to kill the transport without subjecting my cv and bb to the subs’ Surprise Strike ability.  What is the solution to my problem?

2)  If possible, I want to retreat any surviving naval units back to the “safe” sea zone leaving a sub or 2, but having sunk the Allied transport.  Sinking the transport is my main goal though, so if I need to continue to the battle part of Round 5, then 1 of 2 things will happen:  1) his sub will sink my bb, leaving me with 2 jets vs 1 tr, 1 ss, or 2) his sub will miss, and my bb will hit - resulting in my taking control of the sea zone (destroying the transport) with 1 bb and 2 jets flying back to an allied (German or Italian) cv in another sea zone.  This leaves my Japanese bb in an extremely vulnerable position, which is undesireable, but if this is the ruling, then that’s okay, because at least I still sink the Allied transport.

@a44bigdog:

The subs do not have to be destroyed before the transport. Once the attacker can no longer hit the subs, ie. just air left the transports are toast as there are no longer units that can defend them. See page 19 in the manual. I think one of the FAQs also cleared up the wording for the side bar that is on page 19 a bit as it says submerged submarines and air units.

Yes, but in this situation, I don’t think that the transport(s) would be AUTOMATICALLY sunk at the end of Round 3 when there are only subs and a transport left on the defending side, because as the attacker, I COULD have chosen to retreat before Round 4 began, which would have left 1 tr, 1 ss remaining if I am understanding the rules correctly.  Now, I would have loved to save my cv, but since my main goal was the sinking of the transport, in my interpretation of the rules, I played the situation out correctly, and I did lose the cv, but I also was able to sink the transport.

That is a no go Bardoly. I would like to see Kreighund spell out the exact “official” Air unit retreat rules as they are a little less clear than in previous versions.

@a44bigdog:

That is a no go Bardoly. I would like to see Kreighund spell out the exact “official” Air unit retreat rules as they are a little less clear than in previous versions.

I PM’d Bardoly before, and I know Krieg will straighten all this out, but basically -

All units have to retreat together except
1)  When subs have already submerged in a previous round of combat (you can’t submerge and retreat at the same time)
2)  Retreating air, and possibly air + overland ground units separately from amphibious assault units.

So if you’re in the middle of this sea battle, and you have no destroyers, and he just has subs and transports, the transports are the only eligible casualties for your aircraft attack, and then they’re only sunk if your aircraft rolls a 3 or 4 or less, as applicable.  It is not in any way in accordance with the rules to pull back boats while having your aircraft sink transports.  Everything must retreat together after a full round of combat.

Yes, I agree with both of you.

I was stating what I wish could happen, but in my first post I stated what I felt the rules were and how I played it out.

So, to be VERY clear, the way that I understand it is as follows:

Hypothetical situation

I REALLY need to destroy 5 enemy transports, but they are defended by 14 subs and 5 destroyers.  I only have 4 air units in range (bombers), but I REALLY need to destroy the transports, because if even 1 transport is left alive, then I will lose the game, and I’m afraid that the 5 destroyers will hit my bombers, so I do have 15 cv’s (with no fighters - remember, this is hypothetical) in range.  I do have 20 destroyers and 20 fighters which may move to 1 space away from the combat sea zone, so I want to retreat any available cv’s back so that they can join up with the destroyers and fighters.

So, I attack the 5 transports, 5 destroyers, 14 subs with 15 carriers, 4 bombers.
Since I have no attacking destroyer, all 20 of his subs fire Surprise Strikes, and for the sake of the hypothetical, we’ll use Low Luck calculations.
His 14 subs hit 2 cvs, so then I’m left with 13 cv’s.  They and the 4 bombers get 5 hits (2 sea, and 3 air).  My opponent will apply the 2 sea hits to the subs and the 3 air hits to the destroyers.  He fires back with his 5 dd’s and gets 2 hits, so I lose 2 more cvs.
Round 2 – I have 11 cv’s and 4 bombers vs his 5 transports, 12 subs, 2 destroyers.
His 12 subs get 2 Surprise Strike hits, so I lose 2 more cvs.
My 9 cv’s and 4 bombers fire and get 4 hits (1 naval, and 3 air)
My opponent will apply the naval hit to the subs and 2 of the 3 air hits to the remaining 2 destroyers.  This leaves 1 air hit left to be applied.  In my understanding, this hit must be applied to a defending transport.
His 2 remaining destroyers fire back and get 1 hit, so I lose 1 more cv.
Round 3 – I have 8 cv’s and 4 bombers vs his 4 transports, 11 subs.
His 11 subs get 2 Surprise Strike hits, so I lose 2 more cvs.
My 6 cv’s and 4 bombers fire and get 4 hits (1 naval, and 3 air)
My opponent will apply the naval hit to the subs and the 3 air hits to defending transports.
Round 4 – I have 6 cv’s and 4 bombers vs his 1 transport and 10 subs.
His 10 subs get 2 Surprise Strike hits, so I lose 2 more cvs.
My 4 cv’s and 4 bombers fire and get 4 hits (1 naval, and 3 air)
My opponent will apply the naval hit to the subs and the 3 air hits to the final remaining transport.
Now at the beginning of round 5, I have 4 carriers and 4 bombers remaining, and my opponent has 9 subs remaining (with NO transports).  I now choose to retreat, having accomplished my goal of sinking ALL 5 of his transports, even though I had to lose 11 carriers to do it.

This is the way that I understand the rules.

That is correct Bardoly.

To my mind, at the point where the defender has only subs and trannies, and that you do not have any destroyer, then, the trannies are automatically dead if you stay one more round. That would mean that you have to fight the subs only one more round to finish the trannies.

So on your example, you could avoid round 4.

But this is only my understanding.

Your scenarios are played out correctly, Bardoly.  The important thing to understand about the defenseless transport rule is that it is designed purely to keep players from having to roll several rounds of combat just to reach an inevitable conclusion.  It takes effect only when one side that can’t retreat no longer has units capable of hitting the other side’s units.

To answer your specific questions:

@Bardoly:

1)   COULD I have retreated my naval ships at the beginning of round 3, leaving only my 2 jets in the battle so as to sink the transport?  I don’t believe so, but I’d like a confirmation.

No.

@Bardoly:

2)   Is my single jet hit in round 4 applied to the transport because there are no other eligible targets?

Yes.

@Bardoly:

3)   Did I play this out correctly?  In other words, is my battle turn sequence and choosing casualties correct?

Yes.

@Bardoly:

4)   My opponent says that he has never experienced this situation before, but he believes that I must destroy the sub first before destroying the transport, but he’s not for certain, so that’s why we’re getting this ruling.  If he is correct, then what would happen if we went to Round 5, and his final sub’s surprise strike hit my bb, and my fighters both missed?  Would we go to Round 6, with 2 jets firing at 1 sub, but both sides NEVER hitting?

He’s not correct (in this situation).

@Yoshi:

To my mind, at the point where the defender has only subs and trannies, and that you do not have any destroyer, then, the trannies are automatically dead if you stay one more round. That would mean that you have to fight the subs only one more round to finish the trannies.

So on your example, you could avoid round 4.

But this is only my understanding.

No, Yoshi, that’s not how it works.  Like Krieghund said, trannies are only automatically dead when they’re the only thing left, to save you from rolling.

You must be pretty desperate if you have to sacrifice 10 carriers to kill 5 transports

@calvinhobbesliker:

You must be pretty desperate if you have to sacrifice 10 carriers to kill 5 transports

Right.  I think he said it was hypothetical, though.

I know, but still

@gamerman01:

If you have 4 planes (plus boat(s)) engaged against subs and transports, the 4 planes sink 4 transports per round.

No, they don’t, at least not automatically.  Hits are rolled and assigned normally, with attacking air hits assigned to defending transports, as they have no other targets.  Only after all of the attacking ships (leaving only attacking air units) or all of the defending subs (leaving only defending transports) are sunk are any transports destroyed automatically.

@Krieghund:

@gamerman01:

If you have 4 planes (plus boat(s)) engaged against subs and transports, the 4 planes sink 4 transports per round.

No, they don’t, at least not automatically.  Hits are rolled and assigned normally, with attacking air hits assigned to defending transports, as they have no other targets.  Only after all of the attacking ships (leaving only attacking air units) or all of the defending subs (leaving only defending transports) are sunk are any transports destroyed automatically.

Oops!  Right!  Glad you caught that right away, thanks.  I’ll edit my post.

@Krieghund:

Your scenarios are played out correctly, Bardoly.  The important thing to understand about the defenseless transport rule is that it is designed purely to keep players from having to roll several rounds of combat just to reach an inevitable conclusion.  It takes effect only when one side that can’t retreat no longer has units capable of hitting the other side’s units.

To answer your specific questions:

@Bardoly:

1)  COULD I have retreated my naval ships at the beginning of round 3, leaving only my 2 jets in the battle so as to sink the transport?  I don’t believe so, but I’d like a confirmation.

No.

@Bardoly:

2)  Is my single jet hit in round 4 applied to the transport because there are no other eligible targets?

Yes.

@Bardoly:

3)  Did I play this out correctly?  In other words, is my battle turn sequence and choosing casualties correct?

Yes.

@Bardoly:

4)  My opponent says that he has never experienced this situation before, but he believes that I must destroy the sub first before destroying the transport, but he’s not for certain, so that’s why we’re getting this ruling.  If he is correct, then what would happen if we went to Round 5, and his final sub’s surprise strike hit my bb, and my fighters both missed?  Would we go to Round 6, with 2 jets firing at 1 sub, but both sides NEVER hitting?

He’s not correct (in this situation).

Thanks Krieg for clearing that up, it was such an unusual sitituation I wanted to get a ruling on record for future games.

Hello to everybody, I hope this is the right topic for clarification on the rules: if there’s an UK AAgun in a Russian controlled territory, does it prevent Russia from collecting it’s Nat Obj bonus??
thank you