AA50 Rules Errata and Q+A

I have a question that has come up in a couple games now.  It involves when a sea zone “becomes hostile”.

If I make a combat move to engage a Tr in sea zone X, can I then move a Tr through X to get to Y in the same phase?

This question has a black or white answer, either:
a) The zone doesn’t become hostile until “conduct combat”, and therefore I can both invade in sea zone Y as well as destroy the TR in zone X.
or
b) As soon as a battle is planned in X it is hostile and therefore impassible under normal rules.

@PGMatt:

I have a question that has come up in a couple games now.  It involves when a sea zone “becomes hostile”.

If I make a combat move to engage a Tr in sea zone X, can I then move a Tr through X to get to Y in the same phase?

This question has a black or white answer, either:
a) The zone doesn’t become hostile until “conduct combat”, and therefore I can both invade in sea zone Y as well as destroy the TR in zone X.
or
b) As soon as a battle is planned in X it is hostile and therefore impassible under normal rules.

It’s “A”

You could even pick up ground units from a land territory adjacent to zone X and move somewhere else and invade.  I had this question answered here recently.  It takes a surface warcship in zone X to prevent movement through it.

Transports and subs can always be ignored for combat movement purposes.  The rulebook is very clear that zones with only transports and/or subs are not considered hostile.  You don’t make it hostile by attacking it.

Ok I’m sure this has been discussed before, but I’d like clarification/confirmation, as it has to do correct rule interpretation for a certain popular freeware gaming engine and I need to be 100% sure before submitting a bug report.

Lets say a Kraut cruiser and sub are sitting in SZ6.  If the Russian sub attacks and hits, and the Germans select the sub as casualty, does that Kraut sub get to fire back?

Does the rule intreptation change if there is an enemy destroyer present?  Let’s say its SZ2 in the 42 scenario, and the Krauts attack the bb/destroyer/russian sub with 2 kraut subs plus air.  If the Russian sub hits, does the Kraut sub selected as a casualty get to fire back or no?

Thanks in advance.

@Zhukov44:

Lets say a Kraut cruiser and sub are sitting in SZ6.  If the Russian sub attacks and hits, and the Germans select the sub as casualty, does that Kraut sub get to fire back?

Yes.  Both subs get Surprise Strikes because there are no destroyers, so the subs’ fire is simultaneous.

@Zhukov44:

Does the rule intreptation change if there is an enemy destroyer present?  Let’s say its SZ2 in the 42 scenario, and the Krauts attack the bb/destroyer/russian sub with 2 kraut subs plus air.  If the Russian sub hits, does the Kraut sub selected as a casualty get to fire back or no?

No.  The Soviet sub gets a Surprise Strike because there’s no attacking destroyer, but the German subs don’t get a Surprise Strike because there is a defending destroyer, so the Soviet sub fires first.

@Zhukov44:

Lets say a Kraut cruiser and sub are sitting in SZ6.  If the Russian sub attacks and hits, and the Germans select the sub as casualty, does that Kraut sub get to fire back?

Does the rule intreptation change if there is an enemy destroyer present?  Let’s say its SZ2 in the 42 scenario, and the Krauts attack the bb/destroyer/russian sub with 2 kraut subs plus air.  If the Russian sub hits, does the Kraut sub selected as a casualty get to fire back or no?

The german sub gets to fire only in the first situation where both are conducting surprise attacks and the torps are launched simultaneously.  In the second the russian sub conducts a surprise while the german sub would fire in the general combat phase. Assuming the german sub hits, the allied casualty would be able to return fire because of the dd presence with the exception of the sub which has fired already.  Hopefully this helps

@Krieghund:

@Zhukov44:

Lets say a Kraut cruiser and sub are sitting in SZ6.  If the Russian sub attacks and hits, and the Germans select the sub as casualty, does that Kraut sub get to fire back?

Yes.  Both subs get Surprise Strikes because there are no destroyers, so the subs’ fire is simultaneous.

@Zhukov44:

Does the rule intreptation change if there is an enemy destroyer present?  Let’s say its SZ2 in the 42 scenario, and the Krauts attack the bb/destroyer/russian sub with 2 kraut subs plus air.  If the Russian sub hits, does the Kraut sub selected as a casualty get to fire back or no?

No.  The Soviet sub gets a Surprise Strike because there’s no attacking destroyer, but the German subs don’t get a Surprise Strike because there is a defending destroyer, so the Soviet sub fires first.

@Battlingmaxo:

@Zhukov44:

Lets say a Kraut cruiser and sub are sitting in SZ6.  If the Russian sub attacks and hits, and the Germans select the sub as casualty, does that Kraut sub get to fire back?

Does the rule intreptation change if there is an enemy destroyer present?  Let’s say its SZ2 in the 42 scenario, and the Krauts attack the bb/destroyer/russian sub with 2 kraut subs plus air.  If the Russian sub hits, does the Kraut sub selected as a casualty get to fire back or no?

The german sub gets to fire only in the first situation where both are conducting surprise attacks and the torps are launched simultaneously.  In the second the russian sub conducts a surprise while the german sub would fire in the general combat phase. Assuming the german sub hits, the allied casualty would be able to return fire because of the dd presence with the exception of the sub which has fired already.  Hopefully this helps

Overruled by the simul-post!  8-)

Thanks for the clear confimation/explanation Krieg and Maxo!

@Krieghund:

It belongs to Germany.  Control of AA guns always transfers with control of the territory, except in one situation.

Say Germany has an AA gun in France, and the USSR captures Germany and the UK captures France.  If Italy captures France from the UK, it gets to keep it and the AA gun, since Germany’s capital is held by the enemy.  If Italy then liberates Germany, Germany gets France back, but Italy gets to keep the AA gun there.  This is the only time that a territory can change hands without any AA guns in it changing hands along with it.

In the interest of clarity, as your example doesn’t cover my query, and I think the following example is a better illustration….let’s say Germany liberates Libya, and there is an aa gun there.  Does control of the aa go to Germany (the liberator) or Italy (the new territory owner)?

Since my exception example doesn’t cover your situation, the general rules applies.  Control of the AA transfers with control of the territory.  It goes to Italy.

@Zhukov44:

@Krieghund:

It belongs to Germany.  Control of AA guns always transfers with control of the territory, except in one situation.

Say Germany has an AA gun in France, and the USSR captures Germany and the UK captures France.  If Italy captures France from the UK, it gets to keep it and the AA gun, since Germany’s capital is held by the enemy.  If Italy then liberates Germany, Germany gets France back, but Italy gets to keep the AA gun there.  This is the only time that a territory can change hands without any AA guns in it changing hands along with it.

In the interest of clarity, as your example doesn’t cover my query, and I think the following example is a better illustration….let’s say Germany liberates Libya, and there is an aa gun there.  Does control of the aa go to Germany (the liberator) or Italy (the new territory owner)?

Italy, unless Rome is in Allied hands, in which case it would be Germany.

Dear Krieg ;)

Last game saw a lively discussion concerning a combat move where I, as UK, attacked the German fleet. I attacked with only bombers and fighters, Germany had 1 carrier, 2 fighters, 1 cruiser and 4 subs. 2 transports as well.

My question: Can Germany use his subs as casualties when I attack with only air units?
TB

@TimmyBravo:

Dear Krieg ;)

Last game saw a lively discussion concerning a combat move where I, as UK, attacked the German fleet. I attacked with only bombers and fighters, Germany had 1 carrier, 2 fighters, 1 cruiser and 4 subs. 2 transports as well.

My question: Can Germany use his subs as casualties when I attack with only air units?
TB

No

@Battlingmaxo:

@TimmyBravo:

Dear Krieg ;)

Last game saw a lively discussion concerning a combat move where I, as UK, attacked the German fleet. I attacked with only bombers and fighters, Germany had 1 carrier, 2 fighters, 1 cruiser and 4 subs. 2 transports as well.

My question: Can Germany use his subs as casualties when I attack with only air units?
TB

No

Planes can only attack subs if accompanied by a DD.  No DD, no aircraft / sub interaction.

Battlingmaxo and axis_roll are correct.

@Captain:

I too have a transport question.  Japan has been conquered ( don’t ask, don’t ask  :-( ).  On the mainland adjacent to Japan is a Japanese tank.  Small US force in the SZ surrounding Japan.  I now need to come back with my Japanese fleet and retake Japan.  I want to bring a transport with one infantry to do an amphibious attack on Japan to try and liberate it.  Can my Japanse transport bridge the Japanese tank to Japan along with the one infantry it brought into the sea zone if the sea battle is won by Japan, as long as I declare that is my intent?  Or can the tank not bridge because the sz was hostile at the time the battle was declared?

Regards,
Captain Crunch

Krieg’s answer -

The tank can’t be loaded, as the sea zone is hostile during the Combat Movement phase.

Is it any different if the transport is not moving into the hostile sea zone?
Example - British fleet is in Z7 with lots of transports, and lots of ground units in the UK.  If Germany has an IC on France and builds one destroyer right before UK goes, does that make it impossible for the UK to load units from GBr from Z7?  Or can a defending power build 1 DD in Z5 to prevent all loading of ground units by enemy transports that are in Z5??  If so, this seems like a lame rule, as the new DD would be built hundreds of miles from the loadings site, where there could be a massive force of warships.  There’s no way a single destroyer unit should be able to disrupt so much.  But I guess a single destroyer can block a massive fleet, too, so whatever.  What’s the rule on this, Krieghund?

@gamerman01:

Is it any different if the transport is not moving into the hostile sea zone?
Example - British fleet is in Z7 with lots of transports, and lots of ground units in the UK.  If Germany has an IC on France and builds one destroyer right before UK goes, does that make it impossible for the UK to load units from GBr from Z7?

Yes, the destroyer would prevent transports from loading in its sea zone.  However, nothing would prevent the UK transports from moving to either sea zone 6 or sea zone 8 (assuming they’re friendly), loading there, and then returning to sea zone 7 to attack.

@gamerman01:

Or can a defending power build 1 DD in Z5 to prevent all loading of ground units by enemy transports that are in Z5??

Yes.

@gamerman01:

If so, this seems like a lame rule, as the new DD would be built hundreds of miles from the loadings site, where there could be a massive force of warships.  There’s no way a single destroyer unit should be able to disrupt so much.  But I guess a single destroyer can block a massive fleet, too, so whatever.

Yes, it’s the same principle.

Thanks Krieghund!  As always, very timely!

Krieg, I have a large fleet in z5 with germany and russia built a destroyer in 5 just before my german turn with the intent of blocking any loading of transports in z5 by germany.  if indeed this is the rule that’s fine, but i think it’s higly unrealistic and lame that russia building a single destroyer in a zone dominated by german fleet could block all loading from nwe, germany, poland, norway and finland.  i guess a rule’s a rule, but geez is that lame.

i understand it wouldn’t block me from moving to z6 and picking up units from france, gbr, nwy or nwe yet it blocks me from loading from germany, poland, bst, finland and nwy from z5.  rationale?

@boldfresh:

i understand it wouldn’t block me from moving to z6 and picking up units from france, gbr, nwy or nwe yet it blocks me from loading from germany, poland, bst, finland and nwy from z5.  rationale?

The rationale is that you can not load your transports in a contested sea zone.

It’s not like Russia just * wished * this to be so.  She had to spend $8 AND have control of Karelia (assuming no new IC’s were built) as well as ensure that there was at least one unit of capacity to build there (discussing if Karelia had damage).