Very well put Deaths Head. Goering was such a lazy fool and a dope addict. He wanted MORE planes and not better ones. His arrogance cost the Germans their first real defeat at Dunkirk when Goerring persuaded Hitler that they could take the city without much, if any ground support. He was just trying to prove a point that his Luftwaffe was “the bomb” (pun half intended there)
They shold have made peace with England after taking Western Europe or continued bombing the RAF instead of Hitlers stupid decision to bomb civilian towns as a knee jerk, retaliatory reaction for a few bombs that fell in Germany one night. Goerring and Hitler were complete idiots when it came to fighting a war. I give credit more to the pilots and the Waffen SS who fought with incredible resolve in bad circumstances they were put in by the chain of command. (which was a quarrelsome, disorganized bunch at the top of it all)
Russia DID demmand territory from Hitler and he was NOT having it. Like you said, they were conquerors. Many Russians citizens originally helped the SS Honor Brigades and looked to them as liberators until those damn Enzentsgruppen Units started following the SS and Weirmacht, waiting until they won the city, then rounding up whomever they wished for extermination. Those gutless pieces of Sh*t! Didn’t fight in battle; just waited to round people up for mass murder. But again, we face who’s responsible for that decision: Hitler and Himmler.
Those units were doing things that made many of their men commit suicide. Letters were even sent by some of their top officers to Himmler and Hitler, pleading with them to reassign their units to other tasks because many of them could barely handle the guilt of what they were doing. Hitler responded by calling them “soft” and basically told them to “stomach it” and get it done. Sick. They could have taken Russia much easier with long range bombers and without the extermination squads on the heels of the military. They would have had a lot more cooperation from citizens of occupied territory. Stalin was a murdering mad man who may have been even crazier than Hitler.
The Waffen SS were taking POW’s while the Russian NKVD units were doing things like leaving German POW’s hacked to death with spades in towns where the Germans took power. They would even round up all the Russian civilians of the town and intsead of evacuating them, they would leave them all shot dead for the Germans to see.
We’ve discussed this before but I’ll reiterate that Russian “Labor Camps” killed far more peope than German concentration camps ever did.
The Waffen SS unit “Leibstandarte” found the bodies of their many comrades hacked to death with spades. (one of the 3 most successful and brave SS units) They retaliated by ordering no prisoners taken and for 3 days in mid 1942, they shot around 4000 Russian soldiers captured on the spot.
The Weirmachts original disgust for the SS sooned turned to favor after seeing such things done by especailly the NKVD. General Eberhard von Mackensen wrote personllay to Himmler describing the unit “Leibstandarte” as, and I quote: “a genuine elite unit I am proud and happy to have under my command and, further more, I wish to retain.”
Source of refferce: “The SS: Hitlers Instrument Of Terror” by Gordon Williams.
As you can tell, I am a Fan of Totenkopf. Their Combat prowess is just Plain Awesome considering the BS it had to do also.
I have read many Books on the German War Machine, And what Germany had Accomplished in the 20 yr timespan between wars, is Just amazing.
Hitler Prior to the war, Was a Great Leader for Germany, He was in Charge basically when Germany was put back on the map Economically, and Militarily.
So what Happens if the Assination on Hitlers life is Successful? Does this mean Himmler is in Charge? Sounds like instaed of a Assaination attempt, a culling of the leadership Herd was in order.
Goering was second by Hitlers decree. But Goering would get bumped off in seconds, The army would not accept him as leader even with his Great War medals. Himmler could not even command an army group ( he had such a command in 45)
I think a General would have taken over, Possibly Manstein or another basically becoming another Luddendorf.
@Deaths:
As you can tell, I am a Fan of Totenkopf. Their Combat prowess is just Plain Awesome considering the BS it had to do also.
I have read many Books on the German War Machine, And what Germany had Accomplished in the 20 yr timespan between wars, is Just amazing.
Hitler Prior to the war, Was a Great Leader for Germany, He was in Charge basically when Germany was put back on the map Economically, and Militarily.
So what Happens if the Assination on Hitlers life is Successful? Does this mean Himmler is in Charge? Sounds like instaed of a Assaination attempt, a culling of the leadership Herd was in order.
That’s awesome! I’m also a huge fan of Totenkopf! They held out for 70 some days completely surrounded! Even under heavy losses they pressed hard against the worst parts of the pocket. I can tell we share the same passion and interest in this specific units. Never had an SS unit achieved so many Knights Crosses in such a short amount of time.
The subject of Goering and Dunkirk was brought up. It seems history has stamped Dunkirk, a German mistake. Was Hitler unwise by not committing his forces to crushing the British pocket at Dunkirk? I beleive he acted corectly by not attacking the British.
The goal of destroying the French army was still at hand. While the Germans were in control of much of the situation in the West they were still outnumbered in men and tanks. The Germans had very few heavy tanks. This has to be taken in consideration. Why give the French a chance to regroup?
By committing a large force to the English Channel the Germans would get within range of the Royal Navy and the R.A.F. Salerno and Normandy would prove how vulnerable tanks were to heavy Naval fire.
The area around Dunkirk favored the defense. The British would not give up without drawing a heavy cost on the attacker. The defense of the pocket around Dunkirk would give the Luftwaffe a chance to destroy the R.A.F.
How would history judge Dunkirk if the Germans had destroyed most of the Allies in the Dunkirk pocket and allowed the French to counter attack? What would occur had the war in the west lasted another year? How would Stalin react?
It’s just a thought.
But he ordered his armor to halt. It was not engaged to allocation against french or British counter attacks. It was held back IN CASE the British broke and reformed its cut off forces. Hitler was too timid in this campaign, but he trusted his information and generals who convinced him that it was less important. The Hitler of 1941 or 42 would have told Goering to stuff it and sent the panzers to wipe out the remnants. Goering had alot of impact on Hitler, which declined after the London Blitz, but Hitler listened to him in 1940.
To smash the British in Dunkirk, could have been followed immediately by an invasion BEFORE england could get organized, but Hitler didn’t plan on a quick French campaign. The French folded way too fast for anything to be considered.
Hitler decision was a political decision. He thought that France was the first target and UK without France had come to an agreement with Germany. Allowing the UK units to retreat was some sort of goodwill act.
A thing that is important to remember when evaluating Hitler strategic thinking are his experiences of the First Worl War.
Hitler volunteered in the German Army. He participated in a number of major battles on the Western Front, including the First Battle of Ypres, the Battle of the Somme, the Battle of Arras and the Battle of Passchendaele. Hitler was twice decorated for bravery. He received the Iron Cross, Second Class, in 1914 and Iron Cross, First Class, in 1918, an honour rarely given to a Soldier.
Those experience influenced the strategic thinking of Hitler. Seeing the trench war has formed in Hitler the convinction of the importance of not giving ground to the enemy and the superiority of the defense on the offense. In WW II Hitler has alwasy been doubtful of the mobile warfare preferring to hold ground with fortified defensive line and “Fester Platz” (Fortified City).
Back on topic of Dunkirk, Hitler has been convinced by his War Experience that if French Army is put out of action then UK alone have no way to fought a land war with Germany, no UK invasion is needed and an agreement with UK will be the natural consequence. So in his belief there is no need of destroying a retreating Army that will be useless to UK.
Very well put about Hitler, Romulus.
I actually refer to Dunkirk in conversation, as “The Luftwaffes first loss”, not really the 3rd Reichs. It was the first time the Luftwaffe was up against pilots as good as them in aircraft that was a fair match and they failed their objective or “Goerings objective” shall I put it.
I believe Operation Sealion would fail even if the Luftwaffe had worn the R.A.F down in the Battle of Britain.
Studing the Battle of Creete has helped form this conclusion. It’s common knowledge that the Germans had to support the attack on Creete by air. In the Battle the Royal Navy blocked any attempt to supply the invasion by sea. The Germans had complete air control. This fact did not stop the Royal Navy from evacuating most of the defenders of Creete in the face of heavy losses.
How would the Royal Navy act to an invasion of the homeland? With the Germans Navy strength weakened by the invasion of Norway the Royal Navy would destroy most if not all the supporting forces.
I have no idea what losses the Royal Navy would suffer, prehaps a pre-war fleet. The cost would be light considered the consequence of failure. The British were aware of the failures of 1066 A.D.
Given that the Germans would have only had some control of the air during daylight, and the landing would have been timed for right around dawn, the Royal Navy would have had a free ride in attacking the invasion force during night hours. Add to that the fact that the British were reading the Luftwaffe signals, they would have known in advance when the invasion was coming and started moving their ships prior to nightfall. The term “massacre” strikes me as being a pretty accurate description of what would have happened.
In my opinion, Hitler was an idiot to underestimate the British. He could have easily negotiated terms with them and closed that front before invading Russia. Of course, Stalin would have gotten wind of this and been more prepared when the Germans attacked Russia but at least Germany wouldn’t have been fighting the 2 fronts.
Hitler wanted an accommodation with England, he made a number of peace offers following the demise of france with guarantees of protection of British colonial assets. Hitler himself admired them Historically as the bulwark against the people Hitler deemed as less desirable like an enforcer of civilization against barbarism and chaos. He probably envied them.
But Churchill would have none of that and would rather rid the world of the pestilence of both Hitler and Stalin. Their was no way England would “come to her senses” short of total capitulation.
@Imperious:
Hitler wanted an accommodation with England, he made a number of peace offers following the demise of france with guarantees of protection of British colonial assets. Hitler himself admired them Historically as the bulwark against the people Hitler deemed as less desirable like an enforcer of civilization against barbarism and chaos. He probably envied them.
But Churchill would have none of that and would rather rid the world of the pestilence of both Hitler and Stalin. Their was no way England would “come to her senses” short of total capitulation.
I totally agree with your speculation. However I do think a non aggression pact could have been reached if Hitler would have just swallowed his pride. All his negotiations involved some form of German prescence and the British could see right through his BS promises. They weren’t having Nazis on their island. Period. Hitler admired them very much. He even said he hated to wage war with people that were so similar to his.
I don’t think the operation would have been successful for a number of reasons. There was still the Royal Navy, something that would have made any landing difficult at best, impossible at worst. There were more of them to begin with and were pretty decent ships. I think maybe, from my POV, that one reason would have made any landing very costly for the Germans, and those troops that did survive would have had to deal with resistance of some sort after that.
